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2005 Bordeaux - 2/11/2008 4:14:00 PM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		What criteria would you use if you were going to purchase 2005 Bordeaux for investment and drinking enjoyment? Or if you want to be more specific which Bordeaux's would top your list? Let's put a price range of $100-$200/bottle. Is realistic that you would be able to resell at a future date?
Post #: 1
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/11/2008 7:56:40 PM   
chateaumiller

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 4/1/2007
Status: offline 		Pretty much all of them in that price range but there are a lot of people  \who frown upon statements like that.

(in reply to apes)
Post #: 2
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/11/2008 8:29:17 PM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		Don't mean to be out of line, just trying to learn a thing or two.

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Post #: 3
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/12/2008 3:17:54 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		My initial reaction is that the horse has already left the stable and that the only wines you'll be able to buy at anything like a reasonable price (i.e. a price that increases in future years) will be ones that no one else wanted - 2005 sold very well en primeur - you'll have Hobson's choice.
My recollection is that 2005 has all but outstripped 2000 in price and the 2000 has 5 years more bottle age and hence deserves a significant premium price.  Buyers got caught up in the 2005 "vintage of the decade" hype.
Following on from 2005 the '06's were sold at prices far too high (which at least underpins 2005 pricing), but sales collapsed (the weak $ didn't help Bordeaux).
2007 will also be weak, unless the producers lower prices a lot, which I very much doubt.
We will therefore have a lot of 2006 and 2007 slopping about (Bordeaux cellars have substantial stocks of 2006).

All the above says to me that 2005 is a lousy buy and you'd do better looking at 2000 and other vintages which may (probably do) have bargains.

Good luck anyway - keep a look out fro 2007 en primeur pricing, it could be crucial.

Also note:
1. consumers paid too much for 2005 and should be unhappy and
2.  in 2006 dealers had collapsed margins and weak sales (any profit went to Bordeaux producers).
3.  only producers did well in 2005/6 and it wont be easy for them shifting their wines going forward (excepting of course the 1st growths).


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Post #: 4
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/12/2008 7:52:30 AM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		How does a novice go about making decent selections of 2000, or any year. Maybe I'm better off just buying a range, some for drinking soon, some for the cellar, and not caring about so called collecting. I have a couple of local shops that are supposed to be good. My concern is that how do I really know, after all if I cellar for 5, 10, 15 years I can't know if the shop is any good till I enjoy my bottles. I would rather get advice from CT and the forum. What can anyone recommend as far educating myself. Maybe I should get out of France  until I get a better understanding of wine in general. I have more of a grip on CA, Australia, S Africa. With those it just seems I can expierment with bottles and when I find something I like I can rebuy. France just seems so much more complicated, but I love Burgundy, and want to explore Bordeaux and Rhone.
Thanks to Eric, and everybody who participates on this forum.

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 5
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/12/2008 8:54:12 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 435
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I have learned quite a bit about Bordeaux in general from http://www.thewinedoctor.com/ . Also lots of other areas in France covered there, but it is first and foremost about Bordeaux. Enjoy!

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Post #: 6
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/13/2008 12:31:42 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		Just google the web with what you want to look for.
e.g. here’s just a little of my stuff on 2002 Bordeaux -
http://www.wine-pages.com/organise/bord02_1.htm#index
http://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/winenews1113
 
And this will start you off for 2000:
http://www.beekmanliquors.com/2000tastingnotes.htm
http://www.greatbordeauxwines.com/Bordeaux%202000.html
 
By the way I agree Wine Doctor can be very useful.

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Post #: 7
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/13/2008 5:45:09 AM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		Thanks, this should help me get started. Should make for good reading, perhaps over a bottle of Bordeaux!

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 8
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/13/2008 10:44:32 AM   
grafstrb

 

Posts: 408
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: Los Angeles, via Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: apes

Maybe I should get out of France  until I get a better understanding of wine in general. I have more of a grip on CA, Australia, S Africa. With those it just seems I can expierment with bottles and when I find something I like I can rebuy. France just seems so much more complicated, but I love Burgundy, and want to explore Bordeaux and Rhone.


apes,
welcome

France can be a confusing wine region to get into, but this is actually a reason to get into it, not a reason to stay away.  The only way you'll really learn about French wine is actively tasting it for yourself.  By "actively tasting" I mean really analyze the wine as you're drinking it...think about the wine...look at it...make a point of remembering your impressions...take tasting notes...you'll be amazed at how quickly you can learn if you actively taste.  Although France can be confusing, France isn't more complicated, it's just more specific with its labelling.  CA basically divides itself into a few wine regions: Central Coast, Sonoma Valley, Napa Valley, Anderson Valley, North Coast (there is some overlap here), however there are many sub-regions within these...the point I'm trying to make is that other "simple" regions are no less complicated than France, really.  Bordeaux can be broken down into 3 or 4 main regions, or it can be broken-down into more than 30 specific areas.  Experiment with French wines...go into your local wine shop, tell the owner some of the wines you do like, and ask for Bordeaux recommendations that he feels you might like.  If the owner "misses" on all his recommendations, try a different store next time.

Just last night I had a 2005 Chateau Puynormond which was fantastic...you can view my tasting note here on CT.  It was only $20.

Another great Bordeaux cheapie is the 2003 Cambon La Pelouse -- fantastic, and only $15. 

(in reply to apes)
Post #: 9
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/13/2008 7:48:31 PM   
GalvezGuy

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: Galveston, TX
Status: offline 		For 2005, I have been staying with lesser known names.  I have tried some of the wines I purchased on futures in the $20-30 range and they have been exceptional, especially when I think about what I have to pay for similar quality from Napa.  I am also buying 2004s, although it was an "off" vintage, I have been finding some great deals on excellent wines.

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Post #: 10
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/13/2008 10:33:20 PM   
mbannon

 

Posts: 268
Joined: 10/1/2004
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		If you're looking to invest in '05 Bordeaux, stick to the big names with big price tags and plan on holding them for 15+ years.  As Colonel Lawrence points out, you're already paying a premium, so to get any kind of return on your investment now you'll have to wait quite a while.  Basically you're banking on someone paying you for storing the wine all those years.  Which is a safe bet, but likely won't bring huge returns.

Buying for personal pleasure, on the other hand, is a whole different story.  In that case, I'd recommend buying the 2nd or 3rd growth wines.  They tend to be in the $100 range and (I confess my ignorance here) should easily live up to your expectations in 10-20 years.  That's what I'm doing, so feel free to ask me in 2025 if it worked.  ;)


(in reply to GalvezGuy)
Post #: 11
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/14/2008 2:15:13 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		The advice - to look out for minor Chateaux of 2005 - seems sound.
I have read many reports that even the little known producers made good -> great wine.
They haven't appeared on the supermarket shelves yet, but hopefully they will be priced much more reasonably than their bigger brothers - the big retailers may well do us a favour (they wont accept the slashed margins that the brokers were forced to take) they won't be happy with massively increased prices from France - they have many other countries to buy from.


Of course these will be wines to drink - not speculate on - although they may last.

< Message edited by Colonel Lawrence -- 2/14/2008 2:16:21 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/14/2008 7:33:38 AM   
bobbiji

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 12/14/2007
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline 		I am no expert in Bordeauxs, but one thing I do know is they are all over the place in terms of taste and price. And keep in mind that the pocketbooks of people vary quite a bit. For some,  a bargain Bordeaux may run over $100, for others, it may be less than $20.

For me, I like the more fruit forward right bank stuff, a bit less tannic though certainly not mild. Luckily, these wines tend to be a bit less expensive and for the 2005 year, they can be enjoyed earlier than something from the left bank (all generalities with plenty of exceptions). In particular, there are some nice values in the Saint-Emilio family, some people refer to these wines Burgundies of Bordeaux. To me, that's a good thing! I've just picked up several of these, in particular, I'm happy with:
- '05 Chateau Chauvin that I get locally for less than $50
- '05 Chateau Ferrand Lartigue for around $40
- '05 Chataeau de Barbe Blanche Reserve for around $30 (though to be honest, I've yet to try it)
- '05 Chateau Villars Fronsac for around $25 (again, not yet tasted)
- '05 Chateau Lilian Ladouys St. Estephe for around $25 (again, not tasted). Being a St. Estephe, I'd guess this cat will have a powerful tannic backbone.

Regardless, these will all age well, I'd guess in the 3 - 15 year range, though I'm shooting for 10 or less.


(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 13
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/14/2008 11:40:19 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 521
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: online 		> La Tour Figeac 2005
> Kirwan 2005

(in reply to bobbiji)
Post #: 14
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/15/2008 2:48:32 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		Here's my 30 least expensive Bordeaux wines from 2005:
arranged from cheapest ->












2005 Château Batailley

2005 Château Les Trois Croix

2005 Château Côte de Baleau

2005 Château la Bienfaisance

2005 Château Cantemerle

2005 La Dame de Montrose

2005 Château Grand Destieu

2005 Château de Fieuzal

2005 La Croix de Beaucaillou

2005 Château Larrivet-Haut-Brion

2005 Château Grand-Puy Ducasse

2005 Château Haut-Bages Libéral

2005 Les Pagodes de Cos

2005 Château Cordeillan-Bages

2005 Château Lafon-Rochet

2005 Château Grand-Pontet

2005 Clos Les Lunelles

2005 Château d'Armailhac

2005 Clos de l'Oratoire

2005 Château La Dominique

2005 Château Quinault L'Enclos

2005 Château Duhart-Milon

2005 Château Talbot

2005 Château Clerc Milon

2005 Château Lagrange St. Julien

2005 Château Monbousquet

2005 Château Brane-Cantenac

2005 Domaine de Chevalier

2005 Château d'Issan

2005 Château Kirwan



the experts on prices amongst you will immediately notice the strange position of one wine on the list - I got a very special deal on it!



























































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Post #: 15
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/15/2008 9:22:06 AM   
Phantomind

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 7/22/2005
From: Pacifica
Status: offline 		Wow, looks like you'll have fun getting through that.  30 wines, is that about typical for you for Bordeaux or did you go for more becasue of the 2005 quality?  Do you get a chance to taste anything before you buy or is it all reviewes and past experiences with wines?  2005 was the first year I got into Bordeaux furtures and I am excited (but must wait) to see what they are like.

I only have one from your list:  2005 Les Pagodes de Cos. 

Raul



(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 16
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/15/2008 9:30:47 AM   
cgrimes

 

Posts: 895
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		I very much like the Colonel's list.  I bought several of these wines en primeur and I am starting to see a few of them filter onto the shelves--at considerably higher prices.  I agree that 2005 at this stage is not a good buy.  I would hunt around for "bargain" vintages post 2000 ('01, '02, '04) or any left from the '90s.  I am beginning to favor Canon-Fronsac wines in recent years as terrific wines for decent prices.  Many examples but I'll mention La Vieille Cure and Vrai Canon Bouche as 2 that stick out in my mind.

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 17
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/16/2008 3:55:12 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cgrimes

I very much like the Colonel's list.  I bought several of these wines en primeur and I am starting to see a few of them filter onto the shelves--at considerably higher prices.  I agree that 2005 at this stage is not a good buy.  I would hunt around for "bargain" vintages post 2000 ('01, '02, '04) or any left from the '90s.  I am beginning to favor Canon-Fronsac wines in recent years as terrific wines for decent prices.  Many examples but I'll mention La Vieille Cure and Vrai Canon Bouche as 2 that stick out in my mind.


I wish I knew a lot more about that part of the right bank.  Have bought a few, but really shooting in the dark.
Certainly the pricing is far more reasonable.
L.

(in reply to cgrimes)
Post #: 18
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/16/2008 4:04:36 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phantomind

Wow, looks like you'll have fun getting through that.  30 wines, is that about typical for you for Bordeaux or did you go for more becasue of the 2005 quality?  Do you get a chance to taste anything before you buy or is it all reviewes and past experiences with wines?  2005 was the first year I got into Bordeaux furtures and I am excited (but must wait) to see what they are like.

I only have one from your list:  2005 Les Pagodes de Cos. 

Raul





2006  15
2005  50
2004  25
2003  20
2002  15
2001  21
2000  56

Yes I bought 50 different Bordeaux in 2005 (the 30 I listed where the cheaper wines), apart from price I would have bought more (esp. the top growths).
2006 is the opposite case where quality was down, but prices remained high, hence only 15 wines.
I fear 2007 will be another lean year.


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Post #: 19
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/16/2008 4:13:33 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		I happily bought quite a few of the second wines of the top Chateaux and am pretty hopeful they will prove to be excellent.
Sadly even they are now priced in the stratosphere - I saw Carruades de Lafite (2nd wine of Lafite-Rothschild) recently advertised as "bargain priced" at over 100 pounds per bottle (taxes paid),  and it will have to be kept for years!

http://www.lafite.com/en/php/vins/7_1_4_1.php?id_vin=51

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Post #: 20
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/16/2008 4:23:36 AM   
jamscreator

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Indiana USA
Status: offline 		You know me and French wines.  I'm just not educated enough to know what a good deal is (both in quality and price) for French wines.  I've "almost" purchased 2005 futures many times, but just can't make the leap.  I'm sure I'll kick myself later for missing out.

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Post #: 21
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/17/2008 2:03:22 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jamscreator

You know me and French wines.  I'm just not educated enough to know what a good deal is (both in quality and price) for French wines.  I've "almost" purchased 2005 futures many times, but just can't make the leap.  I'm sure I'll kick myself later for missing out.


Just be patient and keep an eye on the shops (retail primarily) as 2005's trickle out.
There's some sound advice above, look to lesser known right bank properties (e.g. Fronsac) and other non-famous chateaux.
In the UK I can't see Tesco who control 31.4% of the grocery business (and where you're allowed to buy wine) swallowing massive increases especially from producers/middle-men who want to stay on their good side for future years.  They even have the power to force big producers to switch to screwcaps!
In the US I know it's more variable, but there will be good 2005's at acceptable prices.
Hey you shouldn't be drinking them for a long time anyway, so you can be relaxed.
L. 

(in reply to jamscreator)
Post #: 22
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/18/2008 8:15:20 AM   
jamscreator

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Indiana USA
Status: offline 		Good advice Colonel.  Thanks!  I'll be on the lookout.

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"Drink what you like, and like what you drink."
-Robert Mondavi

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Post #: 23
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/23/2008 5:59:40 PM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		Wanted to thank everyone for their input. Started to investigate Bordeaux. Bought the following, probably paid to much, but want to get my feet wet.

2005
Fleur Cardinale
Duhart-Milon
Domaine de Chevalier 
Smith-Haut Lafitte
Lascombes

On 2005 wish list
La Tour Haut-Brion
Lagrange St. Julien
________________

Bot
2000 Pontet Canet
2004 Cos d'estournel

Thinking about 2005 Leoville Barton, a little pricey now.

(in reply to jamscreator)
Post #: 24
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/24/2008 2:10:59 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		Just did a quick study of what five pundits* say about five of the wines you mention (the ones I have bought):






Smith Haut Lafitte

Domaine de Chevalier

Duhart-Milon

Lascombes

Lagrange

Smith Haut Lafitte was clear winner (rated 1st 3 times and 2nd twice)
Duhart Milon, Domaine de Chevalier and Lagrange all tied
with Lascombes bringing up the rear (in spite of being rated the best by a rather famous rater and 1st equal by his almost as illustrious US competitor).  The European scorers rated it last, last and almost last!
So here is a good wine to test our palates on - is Lascombes better, or worse than the other four wines?
You get to choose - isn't wine fun!


I have done my best to ensure that I didn't break Eric's copyright rules by not disclosing the scores, or who said what.



*WA/WS/JR/ST/Decanter (SS or JL)

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Post #: 25
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/24/2008 7:43:22 AM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		When will you open your first bottle?

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 26
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/24/2008 8:24:28 AM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		Next question, how do they actually decide on prices. I'm not talking about the real high end but more about wines rated 88-94. It doesn't seem like supply and demand or total quality. Is it reputation or a combination of all?  I just see so many Bordeaux's rated in a range and prices that vary dramatically, $20-$150.

(in reply to apes)
Post #: 27
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/26/2008 2:44:23 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: apes

When will you open your first bottle?


Probably 2010 and then to do a comparison with the same Chateau from 2000.


I'm drinking more modest Chilean 2005's already and they're fine now, if in a slightly different league.

(in reply to apes)
Post #: 28
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/26/2008 2:50:05 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: apes

Next question, how do they actually decide on prices. I'm not talking about the real high end but more about wines rated 88-94. It doesn't seem like supply and demand or total quality. Is it reputation or a combination of all?  I just see so many Bordeaux's rated in a range and prices that vary dramatically, $20-$150.



History counts for a lot, both 1855 ranking and recently past vintages.
There is also a lemming-like effect as they all watch the price of the previous releasing Chateau  (this occurs with 1st's all the way down).
Finally they will price to sell whatever quantities they wish to clear - some will want to sell a lot, others will sell in second, third and later tranches.
Really quite complex.
The dealers have a bigger impact in poor years and therefore exercise some influence on price (as will certain retailers upon bottle release).

(in reply to apes)
Post #: 29
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/26/2008 4:02:07 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 521
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: online 		Just got a case of each of these delivered:

CH. COUHINS-LURTON 2005
CH. COUHINS-LURTON BLANC 2005


Tried a bottle of each. Excellent wines. At $40 per bottle they deliver really good value for Bordeaux 2005.

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 30
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