CellarTracker Main Site
Register for Forum | Login | My Profile | Member List | Search

Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and understand it?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Cellar Talk] >> General Discussion >> Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and understand it? Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and und... - 10/1/2008 1:56:29 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline
I have experimented with aeration for many years in all sorts of styles (decanting, double-decanting, aeratores, aeration in the glass, etc) and I have a fairly good understanding of how those processes work and what they usually do to a wine.

But what I really want to understand is what happens to a wine when the cork is simply removed and the bottle is left untouched in the cellar.

The standard answer is "well, the surface of the wine in contact with the air is so small that it won't really aerate... blah blah blah". And that may be right if you leave the bottle open for just an hour or two. But over extended periods (say, 12-24 hours) the wine does undergo a transformation, which -- in my exprience -- is different from that of aeration in a decanter.

I am planning to conduct an experiment soon. <UPDATE>: Read the experiment TN here. I will open a bottle and leave it alone in the cellar for 24 hours. Then, 20 hours into the experiment, I will open an identical bottle and put the wine in a decanter. Then, 23 hours and 50 minutes into the experiment I will open a third bottle. Then I will compare the 24-hour bottle aeration against the 4-hour decanter aeration against the pop-and-pour.

But my curiosity is whether anyone actually understands the kind of aeration that is happening in an open-but-untouched bottle. The wine surface actually exposed to air is about the size of a quarter... What is going on inside the bottle?

< Message edited by Maestro -- 10/4/2008 8:25:32 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 2:20:25 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 908
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online
You need to get out more Maestro. 

_____________________________

-- Paul

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 2
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 3:46:32 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 508
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: online
Hey come on Paul, experimentation is fun! I have a bottle of wine that has been sitting in the kitchen for a month next to the stove and another identical bottle in the cellar. Soon I will taste both to see just how much a warm kitchen environment changes the taste. At least the cork has not budged in the kitchen bottle, so it is probably not "cooked", but just how much different it will be is interesting...or not? All about learning!

Maestro, I have no idea, but I will be very keen to hear the results!

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 3
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 3:54:18 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 908
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online
I was taking the mickey.  I recongise in Maestro the same geekiness that I think lurks in all of us CTers.

Being a sad wine geek I too will be interested in your results.  If I open a bottle and dont decant it I usually pour out a glass and then let it sit for a few hours.

_____________________________

-- Paul

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 4
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 5:42:56 AM   
J2K

 

Posts: 418
Joined: 5/5/2008
From: Pittsburgh, PA- U.S.A.
Status: offline
I am interested in the results also. I have often wondered if the amount of wine exposed to air makes a big difference.

Let the Maestro conduct!!! 

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 5
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 7:41:53 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines
You need to get out more Maestro. 


What is out there?

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 6
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 7:43:40 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline
So, let the Maestro conduct...

I just need to decide on which wine would be the best choice for the experiment. I am thinking about a non-riserva 2006 Chianti. Alternatively I could try it with a fruit bomb (Aussie Shiraz or something like that)...

What d'ya think?

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 7
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 7:47:29 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 508
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: online
A cheaper Bordeaux? Or the Chianti. Those would be interesting for me. 

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 8
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 7:54:48 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 908
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online
I think the Chianti could be good, one that is not too heavy on the tannins otherwise it would be hard to tell the difference.  However, I guess because a lot of us seem to drink Bordeaux it could be good with a reasonably young bordeaux.

Why not try both?  That gives you 6 bottles to drink.  Not a problem for someone of your stature surely?

_____________________________

-- Paul

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 9
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 8:32:57 AM   
fingers

 

Posts: 729
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline
Since temperature is also a factor, you may see a more dramatic change if you keep that uncorked bottle out of the cellar.  It would also make a difference to just pour out a little bit to expose the shoulders and increase the surface area that touches oxygen.

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 10
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 8:56:20 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 508
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: online
Suddenly I remembered that Serge brought this up in another thread, where he gave this funny link:

http://winereader.com/wines/audouze.html

probably one of his own web domains as the picture at the top might suggest...

(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 11
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 9:00:20 AM   
cgrimes

 

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NiklasW

Suddenly I remembered that Serge brought this up in another thread, where he gave this funny link:

http://winereader.com/wines/audouze.html

probably one of his own web domains as the picture at the top might suggest...



I think the picture at the top also explains his absence.

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 12
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 10:22:39 AM   
kelpcowboy

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 9/12/2008
From: Anacortes, WA
Status: offline
Then there is the "Mollydooker shake" method.  On his website, Sparky Marquis, the winemaker, suggests opening a bottle of his wine, pouring out a couple of ounces, recapping and then shaking the upside down bottle for all it is worth. Goofy technique but with good result.

I have noticed that an unmolested bottle will have a variation in character as noted in Serge's link.


_____________________________

terroir, terroir, terroir

(in reply to cgrimes)
Post #: 13
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/1/2008 12:08:43 PM   
grafstrb

 

Posts: 504
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: Los Angeles, via Minnesota
Status: offline
maestro,

I'm looking forward to the results of your experiment.  I'd go with Chianti, for reasons already mentioned.


Niklas,
I'm really looking forward to your results ... I often wonder if it's "safe" to buy QPR wines from grocery stores that leave something to be desired when it comes to their wine storage conditions.


-Brian

(in reply to kelpcowboy)
Post #: 14
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/2/2008 6:59:30 AM   
Wrighty

 

Posts: 760
Joined: 10/3/2005
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline
I'm with Paul - do both.  You'll need to see whether the effects very from wine to wine.

Hope you have friends round to help with all the opened wine.

(in reply to grafstrb)
Post #: 15
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/2/2008 12:04:38 PM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelpcowboy

Then there is the "Mollydooker shake" method.  On his website, Sparky Marquis, the winemaker, suggests opening a bottle of his wine, pouring out a couple of ounces, recapping and then shaking the upside down bottle for all it is worth. Goofy technique but with good result.



If you really want to improve the contents of a bottle of Mollydooker, I suggest the "Mollydooker Switcheroo" method instead.

It is simple: you:
...(1) take a bottle of any Mollydooker wine;
...(2) remove the cork;
...(3) dump the strange contents of the bottle down the drain of your sink;
...(4) rinse the bottle thoroughly;
...(5) fill the bottle again with some nice wine -- maybe a Côtes du Rhône or a CdP.

According to my experience, it is the only way to improve the contents of a bottle of Mollydooker.

(in reply to kelpcowboy)
Post #: 16
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/2/2008 1:15:39 PM   
Birch

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 10/2/2008
From: Calgary
Status: offline
I think it has less to do with the surface area and more to do with the amount of oxygen available to the wine once the cork has been pulled.  With the cork removed, oxygen is free to move about, be obsorbed, and be replaced with new oxygen.  With the cork in, the amount of oxygen available to the wine is fixed - a bottle of bordeaux only needs the 1/2 inch of oxygen under the cork and throughout the wine to mature over many years.  Replace that small amount with a lot of circulating oxygen, and the wine is bound to mature.  It might take a few hours, as you say, but it will absorb the oxygen.

I can't imagine the reaction is any different in a decanter - the difference may be that the wine would be overwhelmed with oxygen in the decanter, where the open bottle may be a more subtle approach - especially if you fear bruising an old wine.

Anyway, I don't think this gets us any further ahead - we'll have to wait for your results!

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 17
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/2/2008 6:19:44 PM   
Bill

 

Posts: 104
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: EU
Status: offline
Maestro,

This is an interesting question and I think Birch already gave a very useful explanation.

Always willing to learn and I hope some other serious reactions will follow.

Looking forward to your test results.

Cin cin,

Bill

_____________________________

It is lovely to drink a very special bottle all by yourself, but it is no fun at all.

(in reply to Birch)
Post #: 18
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/2/2008 6:50:31 PM   
Paul S

 

Posts: 504
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: Singapore
Status: offline
Waiting with bated breath Maestro. Do both an keep us updated!

(in reply to Bill)
Post #: 19
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/2/2008 8:45:25 PM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline
I will conduct the experiment between today and tomorrow. The Guinea pig is likely to be a cheap-but-decent 2006 Chianti from Querceto.

We shall see.

(in reply to Paul S)
Post #: 20
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/3/2008 1:53:26 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 2093
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline
Not sure I approve of tests on Guineau Pigs!

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 21
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/3/2008 9:03:00 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline
OK, the experiment has started.

I changed my mind about the test wine. I am using the 2006 Fèlsina Berardenga Chianti Classico -- the reason being that it has a much more solid backbone and tannic structure, and hence it should show more clearly the effects of aeration.

The bottle that is to remain open for 24 hous is now open... We shall see tomorrow how this goes...

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 22
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/3/2008 12:37:39 PM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 908
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online
maestro - I love the Mollydooker method. 

_____________________________

-- Paul

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 23
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/4/2008 1:19:50 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines
maestro - I love the Mollydooker method. 


Thanks, pjaines. I'm always glad to contribute to serious scientific progress. I believe the Mollydooker Switcheroo method significantly enhances the Mollydooker drinking experience in a scientific and repeatable fashion...



(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 24
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/4/2008 8:13:44 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline
So the experiment is over.

The results are listed in the tasting note, which is also copied herein. I will save my final analysis for my next posting:


10/4/2008 rated 90 points: This Tasting Note is a result of an experiment in Aeration.

Samples from three bottles were tasted. The first bottle was a "pop-and-pour" tasting. The second bottle was aerated in a decanter for 4 hours. The third bottle had its cork removed and it remained open and untouched for 24 hours in the cellar. The timing of opening the bottles was planned so as to allow all samples to be tasted side-by-side at the same time.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

*** Pop-and-pour Tasting ***

Opened the bottle, gave it two minutes to breathe, and poured a glass. I then gave it three minutes to breathe in the glass initially and tasted it.

Medium ruby color. The nose displays an obvious core of red cherries, and then some wet earth and spice notes.
On the palate it is medium bodied and fresh, with lots of sweet ripe fruit and notes of bitter oak. The tannins bite in the finish, but the finish is cut very short. Nice, approachable, and screaming for food.
After 15 minutes in the glass it opens more, revealing lavender and black currant on the nose, and expanding more on the palate. The finish gets better and longer too, with notes of minerals and sour cherry.

With the "pop-and-pour" tasting, I would give this wine an 89 score and I would say it needs 2-3 years in the bottle to develop its potential.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

*** 4 Hours in the Decanter ***

Aerated in a decanter for four hours.

No discernible change in appearance. Still medium ruby. Less intense but more elegant on the nose than the pop-and-pour version. This time the cherry core on the nose is more subdued, and notes of mushrooms, violets and lavender are much more evident.
On the palate it is smoother, with a dark chocolate component around the red fruit. The tannins feel less intrusive. The finish is much longer with more notes of lavender, blackberries, and some faint notes of menthol.
After 15 minutes in the glass dark chocolate and mocha notes appear also on the nose. The palate opens a bit more and becomes a bit more mouth-filling. The tannins feel very smooth, with almost no "bite".

After 4 hours in the Decanter I would score this wine 90 points and comment that it is drinking well now with aeration, but that it will improve in the bottle for the next 5-7 years.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

*** 24 Hours in an Open Bottle ***

Cork removed from the bottle and then the bottle was left alone in the cellar for 24 hours. The first wine that came after the bottle was discarded from the tasting, as it was too close to the surface of the wine.

Again no discernible change in color or appearance. Medium ruby and clear. This has by far the best nose of the three samples. By far. A lot more intense on the nose than the one that has been decanted and a lot more complex than the pop-and-pour. Cedar, lavender, wet earth, mushrooms, spices, cigar box and violets jump from the glass in an intoxicating nose.

On the palate it is not as smooth as the one decanted -- the tannins are chewy but ripe -- but, all things considered, it has again the best structure of the three samples. It is succulent and delicious, more vibrant than the one decanted and more complex (and a bit smoother) than the pop-and-pour sample. Interestingly, however, it does not show the dark chocolate component that appeared in the decanted sample. The palate is rather driven by mouth-filling fruit and ripe tannins. The finish is not as long as the one from the decanter, but is stronger and full of aromatic notes.

After 15 minutes in the glass some of the dark chocolate notes finally appear on the palate. It remains much more ferocious than the decanted one, with biting tannins. It will be the best match of the three samples for an Italian dish.

After 24 hours in an open bottle I would score this wine 91 points and comment that it is drinking well now with aeration, but that it will improve in the bottle for the next 5-7 years.

***

< Message edited by Maestro -- 10/4/2008 12:09:37 PM >

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 25
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/4/2008 8:36:37 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline
So, what is the conclusion?

Read the TN above (or on the wine page) first to get the context.

The obvious conclusion is that "pop-and-pour" is a "no-go" (at least with a young wine like this). The pop-and-pour bottle could not compete with the other two in any aspect.

As for the ones aerated for 4 hours in a decanter and 24 hours in bottle, I did prefer the one aerated for 24h in the bottle. But, there are some things to be considered:

a) This was a young wine, and if gripping tannins bother you, then the one that was aerated in the decanter would please you more. It felt a lot smoother.
b) In my house, wine is always served with a meal and matched to it. Hence, I believe that the one that was aerated in the bottle was a better option, particularly because it was more vibrant and thus better suited for standing up against an Italian dish. However, if one was drinking the wine by itself, one could potentially prefer the smoother feel and the chocolate/mocha tones that were more obvious in the sample that was aerated in the decanter.
c) The best showing was really the following: the wine aerated in the bottle for 24 hours after 30 minutes of aeration in the glass. Then it had the best combination of vibrant palate with complex aromatics.

Is this conclusive? I don't know. Maybe I should repeat the experiment with a young Bordeaux to see what we get...

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 26
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/4/2008 9:09:06 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 508
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: online
 That's a really cool result! I will keep it in mind, should I feel the urge to open a young wine that should still rest. Hmm...the VCTE II event has the 2004 Beaucastel. Perhaps an idea to test it with this method of aeration??

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 27
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/4/2008 9:17:40 AM   
fingers

 

Posts: 729
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline
For the 24-hour wine in the cellar, what about pouring a small amount of wine out to reveal the bottle's shoulder and giving slightly more surface area?  Next experiment?

Thanks, Maestro

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 28
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/4/2008 9:22:00 AM   
J2K

 

Posts: 418
Joined: 5/5/2008
From: Pittsburgh, PA- U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

For the 24-hour wine in the cellar, what about pouring a small amount of wine out to reveal the bottle's shoulder and giving slightly more surface area?  Next experiment?

Thanks, Maestro


Symphony #2

(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 29
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/4/2008 10:26:42 AM   
z_willus_d

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 2/11/2008
Status: offline
Maestro, I'm glad I came across your tasting-note.  I'm an engineer by trade, which means I naturally find a way to theorize on, experiment, and then hash results on just about anything I do.  The question I am left wondering is if the 24-hr in bottle glass 'o wine had actually seen less O2 overall than the 4-hr decant glass.  If so, I wonder if you could simulate the 24-hr bottle open by simply reducing the total time in the decant -- to say something like 60 to 90 minutes?

One thing I like to do after decanting is shake the wine a little to mix it up before pouring because I have often found the first glass to pour out of an unmolested decanter (presumably the upper layer of wine) is much more full, open and obviously decanted than a subsequent glass, quickly poured after.  By mixing it up well, I think the wine shows more uniformly.

I recently tried a similar experiment, but with a cheaper, less ideal bottle and fewer controls.  I can't bring myself to waist 2 good bottles of 20- something dollar wine, as I'd likely be the only one around to drink them, certaily so if I were engaged in my nerdy wine experimenting (the lady doesn't much like that side of me...)  2005 Alexander & Fitch Winery Cabernet Sauvignon
.  When I can, I like to compare glasses from a like bottle over the process of it's decanting.  I'll give your 24-hours open- bottle in the cellar method a try on the next tannic youngster I open.  I look forward to reading about your and others' tasting experiments.  I wish we could get more objective data (get into the chemistry) to back-up or sensoral results, don't you?
-Willus


(in reply to J2K)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Cellar Talk] >> General Discussion >> Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and understand it? Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.813