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Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/14/2008 4:21:51 PM   
grafstrb

 

Posts: 498
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: Los Angeles, via Minnesota
Status: online 		It seems I'm always hearing about how wines high in alcohol don't stand a chance of aging well (this is usually brought up in a conversation about how many today's "new world" wines are uber-ripe, or concentrated, and are high in alcohol).  If true, this would present a problem to someone like me, a younger wine afficionado looking to amass a collection from the ground on up, who buys mostly current or recent vintages.  I realize I can buy back vintages, but I'm not sure to what extent that would mitigate this problem.  Am I off-base in thinking (hoping) my new-world high-alc. wines will age gracefully?

On the other hand, i also seem to recall others pointing out the fact that many long-lived Bordeauxs from the early 20th Century have high alcohol levels, and that didn't stop them from aging gracefully.

So, which is it?  Wines high in alcohol can or can not age well? 

What are some examples of "high alcohol" wines you've had that "aged well"?  (Interpret "high alcohol" and "aged well" ever how you see reasonably fit)
Post #: 1
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/14/2008 9:01:56 PM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 555
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: online 		Amarone ages very well and is very high in alcohool (15-19%).

(in reply to grafstrb)
Post #: 2
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/15/2008 1:23:03 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 2093
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		This won't help the debate, but at least it educates about alcohol.
Now did you know alcohol and CO2 was the excreted product of fermentation?
http://www.about-alcohol.com/
Prefer the expression by-product myself.
L.

(in reply to grafstrb)
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RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/15/2008 1:30:30 AM   
pjaines

 

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Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: offline 		I try and avoid wines over 13.5% abv - although that is becoming harder to do these days.  Anything over 14.5% and you are in gloopy crap territory.  I just find those stronger wines more clunky and disjointed.  I had some terrible Aussie wine recently and it was 16.5% - WTF!!!!  It was utterly disgusting and I can't see how that would integrate. 

I do think that in order to cope with higher alcohol levels a wine needs to be exceedingly well made.  Unfortunately that is far from the case with a lot of wines. 

Interestingly enough I was reading that a lot of Asutralian producers are now actively reducing alcohol in their wines because tastes have changed to a more restrained style of wine.

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RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/15/2008 6:08:43 AM   
petitblanc

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 2/20/2007
From: Madison, WI
Status: offline 		Agree with Paul. There are the odd high alcohol wines that develop well over time, but they must be superb wines. Even in these cases, though, I've found they tasted better in their youth. I find that alcohol, unlike tannins, does not soften or integrate as a wine ages, excessive alcohol masks subtle secondary characteristics that typically come forward with age, and the typical flabbiness or lack of acidity in over-ripe wines just grows more prominent with age. Plenty of folks obviously like that style, which is fine. I am admittedly not in that camp.

If you're buying these types of wine for aging, make sure you buy great ones and really enjoy that style. A friend who was relatively new to wine built a cellar based on his love of very ripe and fruity wines, but was alarmed to find out his palate changed to appreciate more of an "old world" style over time, meanwhile he is left with a cellar of high alcohol Aussie shiraz -- he has been able to sell them fairly easily, though, as they were all RP high scoring wines on release.


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RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/16/2008 11:27:30 AM   
grafstrb

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

I try and avoid wines over 13.5% abv - although that is becoming harder to do these days.
  
I love it when I see a wine is in the low 14's or anywhere in the 13's

quote:

Anything over 14.5% and you are in gloopy crap territory.  I just find those stronger wines more clunky and disjointed.  I had some terrible Aussie wine recently and it was 16.5% - WTF!!!!  It was utterly disgusting and I can't see how that would integrate. 
 
Then I guess nearly all my CdP is "gloopy crap."  My palate has also strayed from Aussie fruit bombs, in part because of their high alcohols, but mostly because I think they lack structure.  I still enjoy an Aussie wine from time to time, but I don't purchase nearly as many as I used to.

quote:

I do think that in order to cope with higher alcohol levels a wine needs to be exceedingly well made.  Unfortunately that is far from the case with a lot of wines. 

I totally agree ... I've had many smooth drinking wines that surprised me with how high their alcohol content was.  I'm hoping my CdP is made well enough to mask the high alc. levels when they get some age on 'em (the next six or seven years will be an excrutiating exercise in will power as I endeavor to keep my grubby hands my CdP. I'd like to get at least 10 years on 'em before drinking).

quote:

Interestingly enough I was reading that a lot of Asutralian producers are now actively reducing alcohol in their wines because tastes have changed to a more restrained style of wine.

This is great news!

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 6
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/16/2008 11:33:58 AM   
grafstrb

 

Posts: 498
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From: Los Angeles, via Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: petitblanc

Agree with Paul. There are the odd high alcohol wines that develop well over time, but they must be superb wines. Even in these cases, though, I've found they tasted better in their youth. I find that alcohol, unlike tannins, does not soften or integrate as a wine ages, excessive alcohol masks subtle secondary characteristics that typically come forward with age, and the typical flabbiness or lack of acidity in over-ripe wines just grows more prominent with age. Plenty of folks obviously like that style, which is fine. I am admittedly not in that camp.

If you're buying these types of wine for aging, make sure you buy great ones and really enjoy that style. A friend who was relatively new to wine built a cellar based on his love of very ripe and fruity wines, but was alarmed to find out his palate changed to appreciate more of an "old world" style over time, meanwhile he is left with a cellar of high alcohol Aussie shiraz -- he has been able to sell them fairly easily, though, as they were all RP high scoring wines on release.




I'm not really into fruit bombs, per se, but I do enjoy drinking one from time to time ... but, like you, these are not the wines I'm worried about. 

I'm more worried about high alc. levels coming out of Chateauneuf, Spain and Bordeaux.  I'm also worried about high alc. levels in CA, where this problem may very well be at its worst, but I don't really plan on putting as much age on most of my CA wines as I plan on for my French wines.

(in reply to petitblanc)
Post #: 7
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/16/2008 12:04:45 PM   
petitblanc

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 2/20/2007
From: Madison, WI
Status: offline 		I share your concern about the alcohol levels in CdP, and even in Bordeaux. I sat somewhat on the sidelines for the 2005 vintage, partly because of price and partly due to the style. I've been able to pick up some older vintages at relative bargain prices, I KNOW they will age well, and I just prefer that style. In CdP, even the 2004's seem considerably less ripe and hot, at least to my palate.

I've also picked up a fair volume of 2005 Burgundies. Even without getting into the big $$$ wines that are out of reach, each one I taste reinforces my impression that the 2005 grapes must have been of phenomenal quality, and many producers took advantage to make wine that is pure, elegant, and structured, without smacking you in the face with alcohol -- great examples of the old "iron fist in a velvet glove." I'd strayed a bit from pinot in my buying in recent years, but the 2005 vintage brought me back, and generally convinced me there are still producers trying to make great classically-styled wine, at least when nature provides the raw material.


PS: I also occasionally enjoy a jammy, port-like cabernet or shiraz, although I seem to be less tolerant of this style in my Rhones and pinots.

< Message edited by petitblanc -- 10/16/2008 12:08:37 PM >

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RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/16/2008 12:57:09 PM   
grafstrb

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: petitblanc
PS: I also occasionally enjoy a jammy, port-like cabernet or shiraz, although I seem to be less tolerant of this style in my Rhones and pinots.


Ditto.

(in reply to petitblanc)
Post #: 9
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 12:26:32 AM   
pjaines

 

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Status: offline 		Grafs,

I hear you about CdP.  As usual I will contradict my own argument - yes, I tend to avoid wines over 14% if possible, but having said that I love wine from Ribera del Duero in Spain and these can be a bit testing at times - they are more often than not around 14%. to 14.5%.  The well made ones are fantastic providing the winemaker gets a bit of acidity in there.   I always think of wine as a multi-dimensional drink with acidity, tannins, alcohol and fruit all working with each other but also pulling against each other to provide balance.  I'm finding this balance is lacking in a lot of wines over that 14%.   Having said that I dont have much experience of CdP or Amarone or to be fair a lot of the better Aussie wines.

I had a look through my tasting notes and I notice that I had a 2003 Rustenberg John X Merriman which was 15% and it tasted beautiful and extremely balanced.  Then I compare this against a hideous Ravenswood Zinfandel Lodi which was utterly vile and fat and flabby  -like smearing your tongue in treacle.

I think the problem is that medium to low end wine producers may not have the quality of fruit or expertise to hide the alcohol.



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RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 5:24:56 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 2093
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		Better stay out of this high alcohol debate as I have been known to down the odd Special Brew.
Could this be why my wife has a more discerning palate than me?
L.

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Post #: 11
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 5:50:13 AM   
pjaines

 

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Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: offline 		For those of you lucky enough to not have heard about Special Brew.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlsberg#Special_Brew

It is apparently only ever drunk by Scottish people who just happen to be sitting next to you on the train.

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Post #: 12
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 5:59:41 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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Status: offline 		But if you drink a couple yourself you'll actually be able to uderstand what he's saying.
L.

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Post #: 13
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 6:02:27 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 905
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From: London
Status: offline 		If you stuck some blackcurrant juice in it, it would probably taste like a Californian zinfandel.

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Post #: 14
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 11:28:17 AM   
grafstrb

 

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From: Los Angeles, via Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

Better stay out of this high alcohol debate as I have been known to down the odd Special Brew.
Could this be why my wife has a more discerning palate than me?
L.


Carlsberg!?! ... yuck

9% abv Carlsberg!!?!!!?! ... [gag]


(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 15
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 11:30:07 AM   
grafstrb

 

Posts: 498
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: Los Angeles, via Minnesota
Status: online 		so, we know that fruit, tannins, and acidity all "age."  But does the alcohol in a wine "age," or change over time?  What ages in a wine is everything around the alcohol, right?

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RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 11:32:51 AM   
NiklasW

 

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From: Finland
Status: offline 		I should think so. Ethanol is ethanol, no matter how old it is.

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Post #: 17
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 11:39:33 AM   
grafstrb

 

Posts: 498
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From: Los Angeles, via Minnesota
Status: online 		Niklas, that has certainly been my sensory impression ... putting science to sensory impressions isn't always as easy as it seems!  Although I have a scientific mind I'm nowhere close to being a biologist or chemist or whatever "ist" could give me the technical explanation to my question.

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Post #: 18
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 11:50:57 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 507
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From: Finland
Status: offline 		Well, I'm a biologist, so don't qualify for giving a real answer  , I mainly use pure ethanol to pickle bugs in. But if I were to speculate, I could think that alcohol in a wine bottle might "evolve" purely by slowly evaporating through the cork. But my guess is that this would be a very slow process compared to the other factors we like about wine, which are composed of multiple compunds, each reacting with each other to come up (hopefully) with the beautiful bouquets and tastes of good wine! Any chemists out there to put me in my place? 

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RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 12:03:42 PM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grafstrb

quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

Better stay out of this high alcohol debate as I have been known to down the odd Special Brew.
Could this be why my wife has a more discerning palate than me?
L.


Carlsberg!?! ... yuck

9% abv Carlsberg!!?!!!?! ... [gag]




Ah a man who hasn't drunk Special Brew?
Just as Mouton Cadet isn't Mouton Rothschild, so not all Carlsberg is born equal.
Try it (one bottle at a time though).
L.

(in reply to grafstrb)
Post #: 20
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 1:56:59 PM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 905
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From: London
Status: offline 		Dont drink any!!!

You will start head-butting people and talking in a Scottish accent.

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Post #: 21
RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 2:11:00 PM   
grafstrb

 

Posts: 498
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: Los Angeles, via Minnesota
Status: online 		ah, so it's like beer's version of Jagermeister, except it doesn't taste as good, right?

seriously, i'm in no danger of ever drinking a Carlsberg, "special" or not ... I'm an ale guy

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RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/17/2008 2:21:44 PM   
pjaines

 

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From: London
Status: offline 		I dont drink so much beer these days but I went to a Real Ale festival recently and couldn't believe how much gas it gives you!!!  No wonder women dont like guys who drink beer.

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RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/18/2008 1:26:57 AM   
Wrighty

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the info on 'gas' Paul!

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RE: Ageability and High Alcohol - 10/18/2008 1:30:59 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wrighty

Thanks for the info on 'gas' Paul!



At least he's only sharing on the net.
L.

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Post #: 25
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