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CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 3:44:23 PM   
cgkoch

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 7/23/2008
From: Malibu, CA
Status: offline 		A Question for anyone and everyone from a newbie CT Software/Forum User:

So after months of hard work I've finally finished my wine cellar.  It's modest, capacity is 500 at most, but I built it by hand.  I've moved the wine from storage to the cellar and begun to inventory and enter it into CT.  As I slowly make headway, it's come to my attention that I can't wholly agree with the suggested drinking windows for some of the bottles.  Thus, I query, do the majority of CT users follow the suggested drinking window (communally sourced) or do you seek guidance from other sources?

I apologize for questioning CT's integrity on my first post.  I'm extremely thrilled by every other feature included in the online software!
Post #: 1
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 4:04:09 PM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester, Virginia
Status: offline 		Dear CG,

I use drinking windows (as I use virtually all wine commentary) as a hint or suggestion. Perhaps more important, I read the TNs with an eye toward how people are describing the wine in terms of its development (I don't pay much attention to the seeming competition to name or describe exotic tastes). I think it is also useful to keep in mind that for many wines (I prefer Bordeaux) the window can be pretty broad, with the understanding that the wine will change over time. Such changes may represent improvements (I would not drink a left bank blockbuster 2 years out), but after some point, they represent change, and such changes may please some and no others. For example, I am starting to drink some of the Bordeaux I have a little earlier than I thought I would a year ago becasue I am interested in experiencing a slightly different character of the wine. Previously, I would wait until a wine was into or near the end of its drinking window; now, particularly for smaller wines and wines of which I have multiple bottles I will try some at the beginning of the window.

Welcome to CT. Enjoy your cellar and let us know how it goes.

Cheers,

John

(in reply to cgkoch)
Post #: 2
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 4:09:12 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: offline 		cg, the CT drinking windows is the exact science, the product of 29734 combined years of reaserch by 27,930 CT members....
































 
NOT!
 
Don't lose sleep over it!

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Post #: 3
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 4:17:08 PM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester, Virginia
Status: offline 		Serge,

I forgot that part

John

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 4
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 4:17:53 PM   
mjobtx

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 11/20/2004
From: Plano, TX
Status: offline 		Given good provenance and storage, the windows are reasonably accurate.  Of course personal taste then plays a part.  At the risk of Serge suggesting a Freudian slip, when it comes to wine, some like 'em young and some like 'em more mature.  Some of us just like 'em.  John is correct, the tasting notes from CT'ers tells us the most about where a wine is in its drinking window; especially important are the notes that let us know when a wine has closed down.

_____________________________

PlanoWino

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 5
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 4:22:55 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mjobtx

At the risk of Serge suggesting a Freudian slip,





and as far the personal preferences are concerned, my wife ALWAYS hears from me that I prefer "mature"
:)

I think I am prohibitted by her from posting TN's on anything 2005 and younger
;)



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Post #: 6
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 4:29:06 PM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester, Virginia
Status: offline 		As a psychologist, I will refrain from commenting on some aspects of this thread -- professional ethics 

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 7
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 4:43:15 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: offline 		John, you were supposed to disclose this vital piece of information earlier!!!

I wouldn't made HALF the jokes I made if I knew we have psychologist in the house!!!!!!



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Post #: 8
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 4:49:55 PM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester, Virginia
Status: offline 		Serge,

Let me know when you are in Virginia. We need to talk

John

PS I like.

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 9
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 5:00:48 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnNezlek

Serge,

Let me know when you are in Virginia.


No can do, my wife almost caught me in Georgia (she was 34, married, no children) and I am VERY careful now.
Can we meet in Washington instead? This definately would raise less suspicions on her part.

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Post #: 10
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 5:13:32 PM   
cgkoch

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 7/23/2008
From: Malibu, CA
Status: offline 		John, Serge, and Mjob,

Thank you for the enthusiastic response.  I will observe posted drinking windows with moderate skepticism, while still maintaining respect for the well intentioned CT Community; all 27,930 of them.

Any suggestions on a more accurate drinking window source?  I understand that varietal, storage conditions, decant times, personal palates, etc. all play a major role in age-ability, but I also can't afford to buy a case of every wine I enjoy so that I can sample a bottle every 6 months.

Thanks,
CT (aka Colin)

(in reply to cgkoch)
Post #: 11
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 5:20:17 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: offline 		cg, as John said - tasting notes by others give the best glimpse how the wine progresses, but even that is not the exact science. I had 4 bottles which came from the same store, 1982, one was delicious and another over the hill.
I posted notes about both but what will it tell you, the reader?

http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=1769
4 bottles from the same store - 4 different impressions and suggestions of the drinking windows.

BTW, welcome to our zoo where carnal rule #1 is not to take anybody, yourself included, very seriously


Always keep in mind that anything I or ANYBODY in the wine world says is the subject to interpretation, Robert Parker included.

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(in reply to cgkoch)
Post #: 12
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 5:39:05 PM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester, Virginia
Status: offline 		Colin

Despite, or perhaps because of his obvious psychopathology, Serge was dead on with his first comment. The "drinking window" is a hypothetical construct with some connection to reality, but not necessarily a firm one. My sense is as follows:
1. The less expensive the wine, the sooner, and the narrower the margin.
2. Conversely, mroe expensive wines later with more of a range.
3. Reds longer than whites (with some important exceptions).

Most important, read and consult. There are plenty (too many) wine critics, so there is no shortage of opinion. Find writers who make sense to you and try to understand why they are saying what they are saying. Is the vintage for a specific wine early maturing (e.g., '97 Bordeaux) or later ('00 or '05)? And/or is the wine itself one that tends to be ready early or late as a function of the specific producer (e.g., chateau) or the type of wine (Bord. Superior vs. Margaux)? Many websites will have professional TNS as well as TNs from the "unwashed".

Whenever possible, I ask the merchant who has sold me the wine what he (or she) thinks. Has he tasted the wine? Has she had other vintages? Will it be worth it to wait for how long?

As you read, drink, and buy more you will develop your own algorithm, which may very well evolve over time. For example, for Bordeaux, I tend to find the Wine Spectator to be too early compared to Wine Advocate. You will make mistakes in both directions, but you will (1) probably not experience any disasater due to drinking window errors and (2) learn from all this.

The plethora of critics and all the hype surrounding wine has made it a lot more confusing than it needs to be.

Cheers

John

PS Serge Do you pitch or catch?

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 13
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 6:15:02 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnNezlek


PS Serge Do you pitch or catch?



It depends...Who is on first?



On the second thought...I have nothing against meeting in Virginia.

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Post #: 14
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 6:27:50 PM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester, Virginia
Status: offline 		Serge,

If you find yourself in the neighborhood, drop me a line. I might find a bottle or two that you might enjoy.

John

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 15
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 7:09:25 PM   
fingers

 

Posts: 729
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline 		Boy, I wish I could add something funny but I'm only thinking objectively here for our new friend.  Here's what I do:

First, where did you buy it?  A good retailer should know about their product and I'll ask about "ageability" and drinking windows from wine stores and staffers that I trust.  I have 3 or 4 really good shops I buy from in my area and the staff either knows or will find out such info for me.  Truth is, nearly any wine that is strongly influenced by time in the bottle is also expensive enough to warrant a retailer's assistance.  If you're buying at Trader Joe's or Bevmo or Costco, don't worry about drinking windows - there are other issues.
Second, the wine's webpage. Many, if not most of the winery's webpages will give winemaker info about their wines, including things like "maturing dates" or drinking windows.  Give it try.  I'll often download the pdf's from winery websites and keep that info at hand, near the cellar.

I don't think you go too terribly wrong with the CT tasting notes and drinking windows but I do wish Eric could make one modification:  We have the option of viewing the default collective drinking window data of the CT site, or overriding it and entering our own drinking window values (which, I assume, gets averaged into the default formula?)  So, we either go with the CT default values, or we enter our own. But we cannot enter our own values AND use the CT average at the same time.  But, that's just me - too caught up in minutae.

Welcome cg


(in reply to JohnNezlek)
Post #: 16
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 7:11:45 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: offline 		John, we'll be driving to NYC-Chicago-Ashville, NC-back home  in October and both of us will be delighted to share the bottle, or two, ot three with you.







:)






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Post #: 17
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 7:51:10 PM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester, Virginia
Status: offline 		Serge,

Just drop me a line as the details develop. Email address in profile.

Cheers,

John

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 18
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 7:59:11 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: offline 		John, consider it a done deal

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Post #: 19
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 8:06:55 PM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester, Virginia
Status: offline 		Serge,

Excellent

John

(in reply to JohnNezlek)
Post #: 20
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 8:37:15 PM   
Blue Shorts

 

Posts: 314
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Santa Cruz, California
Status: offline 		I use CT as a general guide, but always contact the wine maker when I'm concerned.  Most wine makers are more than happy to discuss the aging ability of their wines.  They have a vested interest in making sure that their wines are enjoyed at their peak.

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Post #: 21
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/14/2008 8:46:43 PM   
cgrimes

 

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blue Shorts

I use CT as a general guide, but always contact the wine maker when I'm concerned.  Most wine makers are more than happy to discuss the aging ability of their wines.  They have a vested interest in making sure that their wines are enjoyed at their peak.


Dare I say this in Serge's presence, but I still use Parker's drinking windows for my Bordeaux.  I'm not sure I really trust WS drinking windows.  Most of the time I just fudge it.

(in reply to Blue Shorts)
Post #: 22
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/15/2008 2:51:51 AM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: offline 		Craig, I trust more 10 people who were drinking the wine for 15-20 years and posting their TN's on CT than to Parker's PREDICTION 20 years ago.


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Post #: 23
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/15/2008 4:47:31 AM   
cgrimes

 

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

Craig, I trust more 10 people who were drinking the wine for 15-20 years and posting their TN's on CT than to Parker's PREDICTION 20 years ago.



Agreed.  But I still use his numbers as a guide.  Mostly, I just try not to worry about it and enjoy my wine.

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 24
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/15/2008 7:25:18 AM   
bgibbard

 

Posts: 392
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Toronto, ON
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cgkoch

Any suggestions on a more accurate drinking window source?  I understand that varietal, storage conditions, decant times, personal palates, etc. all play a major role in age-ability, but I also can't afford to buy a case of every wine I enjoy so that I can sample a bottle every 6 months.


I too generally only have one or two bottles of any given wine (partly because of limited budget, and partly because I want as much variety as possible). One piece of advice I would give to someone in that position is to drink that singleton bottle in the first half of your guestimated drinking window. Drinking windows are always estimates, and if you can't get the estimate spot on for your tastes then a wine that is too young will give more pleasure than one that is too old. With more bottles you can do more fine tuning.

If you are using WS as a guide I completely agree with JohnNelzeck that Suckling's windows for Bordeaux (and even more so for port) are much too early. Sanderson for Burgundy, Germany, Alsace and Champagne windows seems much more reasonable. For Rhône I think Molesworth and Parker are both reasonable for drinking windows, but I think Parker's descriptions are the more useful (although I don't always give him an edge over Molesworth on ratings). Elsewhere on the WA side, I have increasing respect for pretty much everything about Galloni's Italian reviews, including the windows, and before him for Thomases (not sure if Maestro who has far more experience in this area than I do would agree or not). However, I think Jay Miller's windows for Spanish too long, and for Australian preposterously long.

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Toronto, ON

(in reply to cgkoch)
Post #: 25
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/15/2008 9:21:13 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 554
Joined: 10/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bgibbard

Elsewhere on the WA side, I have increasing respect for pretty much everything about Galloni's Italian reviews, including the windows, and before him for Thomases (not sure if Maestro who has far more experience in this area than I do would agree or not).



I tend to agree with Galloni on virtually everything, and his hiring by Bob is the only reason why I remained a subscriber.

As for Thomases (and Parker himself) on Italian wine, it was the opposite -- I tended to disagree with virtually everything.

Regarding Bob Parker, I respect his views on Bordeaux and California, I believe he has no understanding of Italian wine at all (hence the relief provided by Galloni, who has profound understanding), and as for Australia, I think Bob is much too generous with his ratings and drinking windows there (but I must add the caveat that I don't have that much understanding about Australia myself).

Suckling understands Italian wines fairly well (nowhere near as well as Galloni, but fair enough, and much better than Thomasses), but I am less impressed with his reviews on Bordeaux. I believe Suckling prefers wines early in their drinking windows, when they are still fairly tannic and peppy, judging by his drinking windows.

(in reply to bgibbard)
Post #: 26
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/15/2008 11:48:01 AM   
cgkoch

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 7/23/2008
From: Malibu, CA
Status: offline 		Once again, Thank You All!

Craig,

You mentioned that you didn't trust WS's drinking windows.  I've heard numerous people disparage WS as a whole.  Any thoughts on this?

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Post #: 27
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/15/2008 12:56:55 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: offline 		WS is as good as any other wine publication out there. To me they are all alike and just the machines for separating wine lovers from their money.


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Post #: 28
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/15/2008 3:22:56 PM   
cgrimes

 

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cgkoch

Once again, Thank You All!

Craig,

You mentioned that you didn't trust WS's drinking windows.  I've heard numerous people disparage WS as a whole.  Any thoughts on this?


cg,
The interesting thing about wine collecting/appreciation is that we are all on different timelines of learning.  I am in the stage of learning where my "book" knowledge exceeds my experience.  Assuming most of us have limited budgets and access to the great wines of the world, it simply takes time to gain first hand experience.  I say this because most of us who are relatively new to this hobby rely on publications, CT, etc. to make up for what we may lack in experience.  I rely less on WS, Parker, etc. now than I did 2-3 yrs ago, but probably more so than Serge or many others who have MANY more years of experience than me . 

So...I have just developed a sense over time that WS windows for Bordeaux seem to be short...at least for my palate.  They also have become less useful to me because I have a decent amount of Burgundy and very few of my wines are even reviewed by WS.  Consequently, I've gone over to Burghound to get my information.

I'm not disparaging WS (I still read it with enjoyment) but I just don't find it as useful to me as in the past (as a buying guide, for example).  I'm starting to get a sense of knowing what I want to collect and what I like to drink regardless of the reviews. 

Hope this has been helpful. 
Craig (the other cg)

BTW, unlike WS, WA, CT seems as if it will gain importance over time as I use the notes to help me to decide when to open some of my cellared wines.

< Message edited by cgrimes -- 8/15/2008 3:26:22 PM >

(in reply to cgkoch)
Post #: 29
RE: CT Drinking Window Accuracy - 8/19/2008 10:23:21 PM   
GalvezGuy

 

Posts: 319
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: Galveston, TX
Status: offline 		cg

If I am really putting stuff down for the long term.  I have some retailers that give great advice on real windows.  They know that they can make a lot of $$ on me if they understand my tastes, what I look for, and are willing to work with me for the long term.  Unfortunately, I have a list of only a few people I trust, for example, JJ Buckley, I get advice from Mike Supple.  He takes the time to see what I have bought and then tells me when I can best enjoy my investment.  He also knows that I like to take risks on underappreciated wines and has researched what I like best.  Max at Wine Connection has always been dead on in drinking windows, for example, no offense to Serge, who does not feel the same as I do about the 2004 Clio.  Max told me to sit on it for two years and then make my own decision after that.  I have tried a couple of bottle, the rest will sit but won't stay long because Max said to drink before 2010 as he thought it lacked the stuffing for the longer tearm.  At the other end, you have WL and GV, there is no believable window from this team, they are just out to get me to buy as much as possible. 

On the biggies, WS has infanticide on the early end of the window and just coming into prime at the other. RP seems to have a handle on the decline date, but misses the opening of the window.  But what the heck do I know???????  It all comes down to trusting yourself and what you like.  Most folks would pass on a 78 Leoville Barton, but I think it is at the start of a very graceful decline and am glad to have a couple left.  As for people here in CT, I notice that the folks I follow are very consistent in their notes and what they like.  It gives me a good guide.  Anyhoo, in my longest post by far.  I think that Craig hit it on the head in the post above.

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Post #: 30
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