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Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 4:30:29 AM

JohnNezlek

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Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester, Virginia
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Dear All,

I am curious about your opinions and experiences concerning the chilling (i.e., putting in the fridge) red wine. This question is motivated by the fact that last night I drank a good sized glass or two of a 2005 Colosi Rosso Sicilia IGT (a very pleasant wine and an excellent QPR at under $10), and the wine was excellent chilled. The tastes were not masked, although they changed slightly from when the bottle was room temperature, a little fruitier and less dusty. Also, when I was in Marseilles one summer, a wine merchant advised me to chill (or put a chill on) a 2002 Les Hauts de Lynch-Moussas to bring out the fruit. I followed his advice, and the wine was as promised.

At a wine talk, the presenter recommended the 20 minute rule -- whites out of the fridge 20 minutes before drinking, reds into the fridge 20 minutes before drinking. I sort of ignored the advice about the red wine, but this recent experience has led me to reconsider. In fact, I am wondering about chilling some reds and letting them warm in the glass -- something easy to do in the Virginia summer.

Any and all comments will be appreciated.

Cheers,

John

Post #: 1

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 4:40:17 AM

Serge Birbrair

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From: Boca Raton, Florida
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I don't understand. When I bring the wine from the cellar, the red wine is 56F and 50F is white. I wonder what would presenter say about that?
I have to warm up the red.

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Post #: 2

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 5:38:55 AM

Pontac

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During summer I chill all red wines by putting them in the fridge for 20-30 minutes .

Red wine should not be warm, it should feel slightly cool to the tongue.

The 'room temperature' saying is greatly misunderstood. It depends on where you are, what the ambient temperature is, whether the room is airconditioned etc etc etc. I doesn't mean the temperature of that particular room you in inon that day.

Also, fridge temperatures vary considerably, so one cannot pontificate on how long it should be in fridge.

Remember it is always better for it to be too cool than too warm -- it soon warms up in the glass, but a wine warm in the glass is hard to chill

Lastly, I think you have to be very sad to measure the temperature of your wine.

(in reply to JohnNezlek)

Post #: 3

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 7:29:18 AM

Paul S

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Joined: 1/15/2008
From: Singapore
Status: online

My understanding is that some red wines should be slightly more chilled then others - must have read it from somewhere, but cannot quite remember now. I am sure there must be some site online that pronounces on that subject. I generally have to chill all my wines anyway, because room temperature in Singapore (assuming non air-conditioned) is usually between 24-34 degrees celsius. Quite a jump from my usual wine chiller temperature of 15 degrees. However, I think most reds seem to show better at around 20 degrees, give or take some, than at the 15 degrees from my fridge. Saying that, I prefer lighter reds, like my pinots and right bank Bordeaux, served slightly cooler than heavier ones, say CdPs or Pauillacs. No science behind it, the wines just seem to show better that way to me.

(in reply to Pontac)

Post #: 4

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 7:57:35 AM

J2K

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From: Pittsburgh, PA- U.S.A.
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when I was in St. Martin (on the French side) I remember the french restaurants serving the red wines chilled (even bordeaux's) May have just been because it was so hot down there.

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Post #: 5

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 8:02:32 AM

Serge Birbrair

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From: Boca Raton, Florida
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For some strange reason I remember Orient beach on French side better than I remember wines. I wonder why...
:)

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Post #: 6

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 8:08:32 AM

J2K

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serge,
Ya, for some reason I was leaving the wife at the umbrella and taking a lot of walks by myself on Orient beach. With the sunglasses on of course.

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Post #: 7

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 8:16:32 AM

Serge Birbrair

Posts: 1525
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From: Boca Raton, Florida
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J2K, this is a TRUE story.

We were renting the apartment right on the beach. My wife sleeps late and I am an early bird. With no internet connection, I was looking at the beach,
and to my chagrine, on the second day I came to the conclusion that there are lots of naked people 6-7 in the morning on the beach, but...65 and older.

One day, after giving hope, I looked outside early in the morning and, low and behold,
I saw something what looked young and VERY decent,
it looked like everything was in the proper place, good forms, and the binoculars were extracted from the pouch. This was a huge mistake, as the binoculars revealed something I didn't suspect-
the owner of the great shapes and forms was..a man!

End result:
1) no more bookings on the Orient Beach facing beach
2) no more binoculars on beach vacations
3) no more "birds" watchings on Orient Beach!
:)

_____________________________

Do you really think you understand terroir!? -

(in reply to J2K)

Post #: 8

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 8:49:40 AM

Blue Shorts

Posts: 314
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From: Santa Cruz, California
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Here is a list of serving temperatures that I find to work very well.

63° / 17°C
Bordeaux, Châeauneuf-du-Pape, Ribera delDuero, South African Pinotage and Catalonian, Chilean, and Australian Cabernet
61°F / 16°C
Southern French Reds, southern Italian reds, Rioja, Toro, Australian and California Pinot Noir, Tawny and Ruby Ports
59°F / 15°C
Côte Chalonnaise, Douro red table wines, young Zinfandel, Oregon Pinot Noir, New Zealand Cabernet and Pinot Noir, Oloroso and Cream sherries, Bual and malmsey Maderias
57°F / 14°C
Chinon, Bourgueil, northern Italian and Washington State Cabernet Sauvignon, Valpolicella, young Chianti
54° – 55°F / 12 – 13°C
Young Beaujolais, red Sancerre, Bardolino, Lago di Caldaro, young Sanish and Portuguese reds, vin de pays
50°F / 10°C
California and Australian Chardonnay, Sauternes, top white Côte d'Or Burgundy, sweet German Wines, Rhine and Mosel Kabinett and Spätlese, Tokay, Australian liqueur Muscat, Italian oaked Chardonnay, oaked white Rioja, Fino and Amontillado Sherries, sercial Maderia, white Port
48°F / 9°C
Good white Pessac-Léognan and Graves, north-eastern Italian whites, Washington State Chardonnay, Chilean Chardonnay, Australian Semillon, New Zealand Chardonnay
46°F / 8°C
Alsace, Chablis, Côte Chalonnaise and mâconnais whites, dry German wines, Franken wines, Austrian Riesling, English wines, Australian Reisling, Cabernet and grenache rosé
45°F / 7°C
Good Champagne and Sparkling wine, Sancere, new York State, Chilean and New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc
43°F / 6°C
White Bordeaux, Muscadet, Anjou, other Sauvignons, Asti, unoaked white Roja
41°F / 5°C
Qba German wines, Soave, young Spanish and Portuguese whites, Vinho Verde, Swiss Chasselas, Austrian Grüner Veltliner, cheap rosé
36° – 39°F / 2 – 4°C
Cheap sparkling wines

or a simpler chart

Temp F
Temp C
Notes

100°

39°
Warm Bath

68°

20°
-

66°

19°
Vintage Port

64°

18°
Bordeaux, Shiraz

63°

17°
Red Burgundy, Cabernet

61°

16°
Rioja, Pinot Noir

59°

15°
Chianti, Zinfandel

57°

14°
Tawny/NV Port, Madeira

55°

13°
Ideal storage for all wines

54°

12°
Beaujolais, rose

52°

11°
Viognier, Sauternes

50°

10°
-

48°

9°
Chardonnay

47°

8°
Riesling

45°

7°
Champagne

43°

6°
Ice Wines

41°

5°
Asti Spumanti

39°

4°
-

37°

3°
-

35°

2°
Fridge Temperature

33°

1°
-

32°

0°
water freezes

0°

-18°
Freezer Temperature

_____________________________

The best wine is the one that you haven't yet tried.

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Post #: 9

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 11:25:03 AM

JohnNezlek

Posts: 218
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From: Gloucester, Virginia
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Blue:

Thanks a bunch. The list is very thorough. Is it based on your experience, or another source? Just curious, not being critical or picky.

John

(in reply to Blue Shorts)

Post #: 10

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 2:17:09 PM

rjonas

Posts: 148
Joined: 11/5/2006
From: Newcastle, WA
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wow... i wonder how refined your palate has to be in order to detect a difference of just a few degrees?

I'm not sure I ever want to get THAT precise!

(in reply to Blue Shorts)

Post #: 11

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 6:33:31 PM

Paul S

Posts: 501
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: Singapore
Status: online

haha, out of curiosity, how do you measure your wines? Do you use a thermometer or adjust storage temperature?

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Post #: 12

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 8:23:02 PM

Blue Shorts

Posts: 314
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Santa Cruz, California
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It's based on an internet search

I do agree with the temperatures and wines that I have tried. I find that most reds are served too warm... and most whites too cold.

When it comes to reds... typical room temperature, about 72 deg F, is just too warm. It's better to start colder and let the wine warm a bit if necessary. Too warm and all you get is alcohol up your nose.

Experiment. It's fun.

_____________________________

The best wine is the one that you haven't yet tried.

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Post #: 13

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/23/2008 8:26:37 PM

Blue Shorts

Posts: 314
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Santa Cruz, California
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I use my big toe

I know my storage, fridge, and room temperatures. It's not that difficult to judge from those points. The temps are just guidelines. You should decide for yourself which temps you like with each wine. If you start out colder than necessary, all you have to do is keep tasting the wine as it warms to find out where its best.

_____________________________

The best wine is the one that you haven't yet tried.

(in reply to Paul S)

Post #: 14

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/25/2008 5:33:12 PM

Bill

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Joined: 10/8/2007
From: EU
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John, this is a very useful thread!!!

Temperature is really crucial in the way you experience a wine.
Just try it yourself and you’ll find out easily.

Like Blue Shorts says reds are often served too warm and whites often too cold.
So like Pontac suggests; better start a bit too cold, because when the wine is in the glass it is easier too warm the wine a bit than chilling it.
Rjonas; a few degrees can make a BIG difference. Try a good red at 18°C or at 22°C and you know it! Even with two degrees difference you can taste it, but it takes a bit more effort.
Paul S, to be honest I never really measure the exact temperature of the wines I drink, but I really see to it that I don’t drink my reds to warm and my whites not too cold. My cooler is at 4°C and that is definitely too cold for every white wine, so I take it out of the cooler in time. But if you are uncertain, there in fact are thermometers you can put around the bottle to see the temperature of the wine inside.

There are two general rules I would like to mention here:
1. The more complex a wine is, the warmer you can drink it.
2. In the long term; storing wine, temperatures should be as regular as possible, but for the drinking moment everything is allowed to get the wine at the correct drinking temperature.

The lower the temperature, the less unpleasant aspects of the wine show. That is the reason why some simple reds are preferably chilled a bit. With higher temperatures those wines are horrible! I wondered if I should give an example, but I will. Cheap young Beaujolais (NOT THE CRU’S FROM THAT REGION!!!) should be chilled. Then they can be pleasant for a large public (but imo not for real wine lovers…..this is very personal!!)

A few examples of my first general statement:
Good Bordeaux or Barolo can be drunk quite warm. But drank too warm all the flavours will disappear too quickly and the wine tastes cooked.
Good and complex white Burgundy can improve enormously with a little higher temperature.
Sauternes is quite cold very nice to drink, but because of the complexity of the better wines from this region, when drank a bit warmer, the wines show much more of their complexity.

There already is a list of suggested drinking temperatures in this thread.
The only thing I can add to that is that in every region you have more complex wines and less complex wines. And then general rule counts: the more complex the warmer.

And, while most of you are from the US, I can give you an example which makes it easy to try for yourself. (My US wine knowledge is limited, but this wine I know quite well.)
Kistler makes great Chardonnay. Drink it too cold and you miss it all; all the flavours and all the complexity. Drink it a little warmer and you get it all…!!!

While writing this I found out it is not that easy to explain it and to be complete.
But I hope you get the general idea: preferably start a bit too cold and take your time to find out for yourself which temperature you like best. TEMPERATURE IS IMPORTANT!

Cheers,
Bill.

< Message edited by Bill -- 6/26/2008 4:03:54 PM >

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Post #: 15

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/25/2008 11:17:24 PM

Maestro

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The main issue is to get restaurants to do it right.

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RE: Chilling red wine - 6/26/2008 3:41:44 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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From: Arabia
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Bill's spot on. Interestingly the same applies to beer: bad, weak beer just has to be close to frozen: classy*, British beer you can enjoy unchilled (note I don't say warm, for as with wine, this is not the way to serve them).
L.

* not all is 'classy'

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Post #: 17

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/26/2008 4:01:25 PM

Bill

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From: EU
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That is also true Maestro. (I missed your thread about this subject, sorry.)
But why not find out what you think is best at home?
And I will never forget the look of the waiter (about 10 years ago) in a restaurant just about 50 meters from the Piazza del Campo, when I asked him to put my bottle of Brunello in a champaign cooler filled with water and ice. Priceless! Stupid tourists is definitely what he thought. (It was at least 30 degrees C and the wine not a bit cooler.)

Cin cin,
Bill.

P.S. You must be in a big dilemma with Spain and Germany in the final. Open a passito or amarone and drink it all is my advice.

(in reply to Maestro)

Post #: 18

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/26/2008 4:05:49 PM

Bill

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Right you are Colonel. Same for the better Belgian beers.

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Post #: 19

RE: Chilling red wine - 6/27/2008 1:02:04 AM

Maestro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill

P.S. You must be in a big dilemma with Spain and Germany in the final. Open a passito or amarone and drink it all is my advice.

Well, not really. Joking aside, I'd rather see good, vibrant football. So I'll be hoping Spain wins.

Besides, I am setting off to Spain today for one week, so it will be nice if they win while I am there. I'll just join the celebrations. (I speak flawless Spanish, so they won't know I am an impostor and infiltrator...)