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Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/27/2008 9:01:09 AM

WineGym

Posts: 47
Joined: 8/15/2007
From: Wilmington, DE
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I am amazed to see how many people have more than a 100 bottles of wine in their cellars. I truly believe wine should be consumed rather than collected.

Personally, I would not buy a wine that was more than ten years old, so who is buying and why?

I don't see the ROI on collecting wines. It costs money to have a good cellar to protect this wine.

Besides, there are so many vineyards and wineries throughout the world, how would you know which ones to keep. Would you really just base this decision on a wine magazine's recommendation? Not me, I have found some excellent wines that were never mentioned in any rag.

At the Wine Gym, you exercise the palate when you consume, not collect it to just sit around like a couch potato.

Just an opinion. Look forward to hearing more on this

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Regards,
WineGym

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RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/27/2008 9:09:57 AM

Serge Birbrair

Posts: 1493
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
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WG, can you walk and chew gum at the same time?
Why can't wines be consumed AND collected at the same time?
If you buy more than you consume , some wine will sit in the cellar and age for better taste.

As for "is costs money", so do automobiles, living quarters, etc
Living in the cages and walking was cheaper.

As for what to drink.....
I do not subscribe to a single wine publication and if you check my TNs, my drinking horizons are rather large.
I can't claim to fully understand your post.

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(in reply to WineGym)

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RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/27/2008 9:18:41 AM

Wrighty

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From: Hong Kong
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WineGym

Personally, I would not buy a wine that was more than ten years old, so who is buying and why?

Why not?

There a lot of wines which will be better after 10 years . Have you discounted all of these from your experience?

Wrighty

(in reply to WineGym)

Post #: 3

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/27/2008 4:33:34 PM

J2K

Posts: 360
Joined: 5/5/2008
From: Pittsburgh, PA- U.S.A.
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Is the Wine Gym a place or a concept?

There are different reasons for collecting.
Some people collect to age the wine because they feel it will improve with age and intend to drink it themselves. Some people collect to re-sell for profit.

You are right, it does cost a lot to purchase and store high priced collectable wines, especially the ones they sell at big time wine auctions. That is whole different breed of wine person, I think most people here are into purchasing, consuming, and enjoying their own wines.

A lot of us read wine magazines but one the reason we use CT and post here is to share tasting notes, thoughts about wines, wine recommendations, which older wines are drinking well, which new wines we have tried, etc..... I use celler tracker more as a buying guide than any wine publication.

I noticed your cellar has a lot of white wines, have you ever tried an aged red burgundy (or white), aged Bordeaux, Barolo, Barbaresco, etc...... a lot of these wines you may not be able to purchase in your local retail shop when they are 10 years old. You have to buy them when released and store them. If not, you may be the one buying from a re-seller.

As for the big time collecting and re-selling high end wines, our man Colonel Lawrence could provide more knowledge on that subject or Serge could give a lovely introduction to his idol, mentor, and role model, Pavie Princess.

< Message edited by J2K -- 7/27/2008 4:43:29 PM >

(in reply to Wrighty)

Post #: 4

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/27/2008 4:43:22 PM

Serge Birbrair

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From: Boca Raton, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: J2K

..... or Serge could give a lovely introduction to his idol, mentor, and role model, Pavie Princess.

very true,
everything I acomplished in my wine life I have to thank Sandy and ONLY her.

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Having a good day? I can spoil it! -

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RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/27/2008 5:05:13 PM

smahk

Posts: 68
Joined: 2/23/2007
From: Long Island, NY
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I have been collecting wines for a short time. My Cellar is not quite one year old. But my goal is to drink lovely wines that I can choose on a whim - and if I cellar my own wines I can taste them as they develope and chose at will what I'd like to drink tonight.

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)

Post #: 6

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/27/2008 5:47:14 PM

Blue Shorts

Posts: 297
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Santa Cruz, California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WineGym

I am amazed to see how many people have more than a 100 bottles of wine in their cellars. I truly believe wine should be consumed rather than collected.

Personally, I would not buy a wine that was more than ten years old, so who is buying and why?

I don't see the ROI on collecting wines. It costs money to have a good cellar to protect this wine.

Besides, there are so many vineyards and wineries throughout the world, how would you know which ones to keep. Would you really just base this decision on a wine magazine's recommendation? Not me, I have found some excellent wines that were never mentioned in any rag.

At the Wine Gym, you exercise the palate when you consume, not collect it to just sit around like a couch potato.

Just an opinion. Look forward to hearing more on this

As others have mentioned, drinking wine and collecting wine are not mutually exclusive.

Many of us do both. We collect wine and drink at the same time (walk and chew gum... as mentioned by Serge)

Personally, I can't afford to buy many of the older wines that I like, so I buy them young at a fraction of the cost of older wine... and age them. In 10 years, I can drink a wine that may be selling for hundreds of dollars, yet I paid < $100.

Then there's the aspect of simply collecting for collecting's sake. It's nice to have a large collection of wine. It's similar to having a large art collection, or book collection, or car collection.

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(in reply to WineGym)

Post #: 7

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/27/2008 5:54:31 PM

duck833

Posts: 55
Joined: 5/13/2008
From: Eugene, Oregon
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I am drinking as fast as I can, but it seems I am buying faster.

I specialize in Oregon Pinot Noir's. Many years it seems that our PN's improve with a few years aging. 2005 is probably a good example. I am storing most of the 05's for a few more years. The 06's however are getting opened as fast as I can. Just bought three more cases last week however. Some of the big 06's will cellar for a few years.

I am up to close to 400 bottles, just started this hobby in February really, got my cellar in March. We are enjoying being able to reach into the cellar and pull out a bottle for a gift, dinner at home, dinner at the club or just drinking. Nice to have lots of alternatives to cover all bases and do it with a bottle that didn't cost you an arm and a leg and is available.

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Go Ducks!!!

(in reply to Blue Shorts)

Post #: 8

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/27/2008 6:07:31 PM

zippz

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From: Chicago IL USA
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I think in part, the collecting is a primal need.
From a historical/anthropological big picture view,
our species is not all that far removed from the animal kingdom.
Our need for a sense of security is embedded in our genes and psyche.

Survival throughout the ages was guaranteed to those who learned to store for a drought.
And even in today's age when our survival seems certain,
it's still comforting to know that when the world ends,
we always have the option of locking ourselves away in our cellars.

A 100 bottles may give a couple a month or two of ...
good times during the worst of times.

Now with that said... I wonder... can woman and man live off wine alone?

< Message edited by zippz -- 7/27/2008 6:08:57 PM >

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(in reply to Blue Shorts)

Post #: 9

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/27/2008 10:07:41 PM

NiklasW

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From: Finland
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I'm certainly looking forward to tasting the same wine that I bought at the same time over many years to see how it evolves. Couldn't do that without a cellar or a collection.

(in reply to zippz)

Post #: 10

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/27/2008 11:44:01 PM

Maestro

Posts: 521
Joined: 10/4/2007
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Why do we cellar wine?

Primal need of a sense of security?

I am sorry... I don't mean to be arrogant, but I just find the question and some of the answers a bit on the absurd side of the equation for a forum belonging to a Cellar Tracking solution...

Anyway... the answer...

Most high-quality wines should not be drunk in their infancy. Chemical reactions that occur in the bottle over time will make the wines better. In the case of reds you are waiting for a breakdown of the tannins that will "mellow" the wine, while other reactions will increase its aromatics.

Many of the grand wines also go through a dumb (or shutdown phase) and you will want to avoid drinking these wines in that period. Some wines may be shutdown for 8-10 years before they emerge in beauty.

But if you go to the wine shop, 90% of their inventory will be of young, recently released wines (understandable, since they cannot cellar tens of thousands of bottles so that you can buy only aged wine). And the 10% of aged wines they might have on sale will have a hefty price premium (for the trouble someone had of ageing it). Another issue with buying aged wine is that you must trust the provenance, but let's not even make this more complicated.

So the only solution to drink wine at its peak is to buy it young (at release), put it in the cellar for however many years are deemed necessary for that particular, and then consume it. Additional fun factors include opening bottles of the same wine throughout the years and experiencing the changes; and tracking the wine on CT to see how other users are experiencing it, so that you can hit the jackpot of the wine's "peak".

That is why we cellar wine. There maybe secondary motivations (re-sell some of the cellared wine, display your beautiful cellar to friends, etc), but they wouldn't stand without the basic reason explained above.

(in reply to NiklasW)

Post #: 11

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/28/2008 5:44:44 AM

zippz

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From: Chicago IL USA
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A very cerebral explanation, one which is most obvious.
What i'm proposing is that there are other reasons why we collect/store that aren't so obvious.
They are subconscious, instinctual and/or biological in nature...
i.e. a woman's "biological clock" or how a squirrel knows to store nuts for the winter,
...are these goals/drives learned in a text book?
"...absurd side of the equation..." i think not.
Not everything can be fully explained from observing the surface of a subject alone.
There is also a vast internal terrain of influencing factors that govern our actions.
Just because you don't understand them, let alone recognize them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

< Message edited by zippz -- 7/28/2008 5:55:57 AM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/28/2008 5:45:11 AM

pjaines

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Winegym,

Interesting post actually. Your getting some good comments on the responses.

Here is my two pennies-worth.
There is also of course the emotional attachement to drinking a bottle of wine that you have had in your cellar for 15+ years. Wine is not like eating a packet of crisps or chewing on a Big Mac. I guess you can argue that a bottle of wine is nourishment but I think there is a fundamentally different relationship between a old wine and its drinker than say between a bottle of Bud and its drinker (I am sure some will disagree). These older wines seem to bring out in us an appreciation for produce that has been slowly and skillfully made and then matured. I guess if you slug down a bottle of $5 wine there is not the same emotional link, but I do know that when I bring out an old bottle of wine from the cellar there is much more respect and anticipation.

In these fast-fix times I think it is a wonderful thing that you cannot just buys these wines off the shelf and swig them down straight away. Patience is rewarded. These old wines are the anthithesis of modern living.

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RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/28/2008 9:38:10 AM

rloomis

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From: San Diego, CA
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quote:

Consume or Collect? That is the question

A: Juxtapose the word Consume with Collect, replace the ¨or¨ with ¨and¨!

(or just say, ¨Yes¨....and, what everybody above said.)

(in reply to WineGym)

Post #: 14

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/28/2008 7:41:17 PM

WineGym

Posts: 47
Joined: 8/15/2007
From: Wilmington, DE
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I was hoping for a lot of responses, but not really expecting it.

Many thanks for your opinions.

I have a wine cellar so I can choose the wine I'm in the mood for so I don't have to rush to the store to spend more time deciding. I have whites, because my wife likes them. That's probably why I have more whites than reds.

I use Cellar Tracker so I know what I had and what I like and also for the opinons of other wine enthusiasts (The non-professionals, of course).

I also tend to buy faster, because I keep consuming.

I do have a few Bordeauxs that I am holding, but I don't believe I will wait 10 years to see how they turn out. I certainly won't remember how it tasted when I first tatsted it, no matter how good my notes were. I'll try to wait on the 2005's for 2010, but don't make any wagers on me to wait, because I already had one bottle of each and really loved them when I had them.

Perhaps I am just impatient, and I certainly share the anticipation of opening an older bottle.

By the way, The Wine Gym is a Wine Tasting Club (for the Beer Pocket :-), I started a few years ago here in Delaware. I will share your opinions with them, it should be a great topic of discussion for us.

Perhaps if man and woman could live on wine alone, I would stock up and build up my cellar.

Thanks again all

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Regards,
WineGym

(in reply to rloomis)

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RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/28/2008 8:23:19 PM

duck833

Posts: 55
Joined: 5/13/2008
From: Eugene, Oregon
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Drink up, they will make more for us

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Go Ducks!!!

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RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 7/31/2008 8:10:52 PM

zippz

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From: Chicago IL USA
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Since my theory still stands...
in sum... we are all squirrels storing our nuts/bottles.

Need i say more?

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Post #: 17

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 8/2/2008 3:17:42 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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If you wish to enjoy a really great red wine with some bottle age then someone must lay it down.
It's purely a financial (and provenance) decision who does it.
Of the greatest (perhaps most expensive is a better description) wines, you will historically have been better buying them yourself and laying them down (safely).
There must be many on CT who now find the cost of any of the better 2000's prohibitive.
Of Bordeaux you'll be hard pressed to find the better wines below $100 a bottle.
L.

(in reply to WineGym)

Post #: 18

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 8/3/2008 11:13:43 AM

ParkHill

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From: Denver, CO
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Colonel,

Have you calculated the Present Value of your investment strategy. It is one thing to hope for a special circumstance that makes your cheap purchase suddenly valuable, and another to invest rationally. In other words, if you buy a wine and store it, is it appreciating faster or slower than some other investment, say 7% or 10%? By the rule of 72, a 10% investment doubles in value in 7.2 years. Does a typical good wine double in value in seven years, not counting spasms of popularity or Parker rating changes.

Maybe you are just as well off buying five or ten years down the road (assuming what you want is available), letting someone else pay the storage fees.

I've had pretty good deals on 8 or 10 year old wine in odd lots that were late-released. Maybe the winery needed to clear out some storage, or a warehouse somewhere was releasing it. I'm not even sure.

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)

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RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 8/3/2008 7:57:55 PM

nazizin

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Interesting, a whole array of different reasons for collecting, all equally valid. I'm sure, many overlap for most of use.

Though i wonder if we have over looked one of the more seductive reasons collectors collect, as possible M.O. behind the formation of our cellars. Such as with people who hold on to every concert ticket or matchbook from their travels. The collecting becomes a way of holding on to fond memories, maybe even in a hope that one could relive the event/past in the future. Nostalgia has a mystical powerful over most of us. Whether it be baseball cards, lunch boxes or star-trek/star-wars action figures.

(in reply to ParkHill)

Post #: 20

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 8/4/2008 1:28:22 AM

Maestro

Posts: 521
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: nazizin

Though i wonder if we have over looked one of the more seductive reasons collectors collect, as possible M.O. behind the formation of our cellars. Such as with people who hold on to every concert ticket or matchbook from their travels. The collecting becomes a way of holding on to fond memories, maybe even in a hope that one could relive the event/past in the future. Nostalgia has a mystical powerful over most of us. Whether it be baseball cards, lunch boxes or star-trek/star-wars action figures.

Yes, that is a much more likely secondary reason to cellar wine -- i.e., collecting it.

Many people whith cellars today were originally inspired by the beautiful collection of someone else's at one point in time. And that sparks the "collector" in that person. Add that to liking wine and the need to age it and you have a compelling case to build a cellar.

(in reply to nazizin)

Post #: 21

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 8/4/2008 7:03:58 PM

J2K

Posts: 360
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From: Pittsburgh, PA- U.S.A.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nazizin

Interesting, a whole array of different reasons for collecting, all equally valid. I'm sure, many overlap for most of use.

Though i wonder if we have over looked one of the more seductive reasons collectors collect, as possible M.O. behind the formation of our cellars. Such as with people who hold on to every concert ticket or matchbook from their travels. The collecting becomes a way of holding on to fond memories, maybe even in a hope that one could relive the event/past in the future. Nostalgia has a mystical powerful over most of us. Whether it be baseball cards, lunch boxes or star-trek/star-wars action figures.

I agree, but at some point you want o drink the wine. That is why I peel my wine labels and stick/paste them on my cellar door or wall. Then I stiil have the proof or conversation piece to show that I drank the wine(beside my CT note of course).

(in reply to nazizin)

Post #: 22

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 8/5/2008 4:47:32 AM

superbarre

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From: Leuven, Belgium
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I find that collecting (and ageing) wines makes you somewhat part in the whole process which defines the taste of the wine.
And especially, I think it is very handy to have an array of wine at my disposal, so I can drink whatever my mood (or the occasion) demands

(in reply to WineGym)

Post #: 23

RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 8/5/2008 5:13:20 AM

cgrimes

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From: Massachusetts
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I also enjoy the art of manageing a cellar so that I can pull a bottle for any occasion. My cellar is largely full so now I enjoy buying more targeted, quality wines rather than just accumulating to fill space. It will be really nice in about 10yrs when I start to get more of a balance of wines coming into maturity.

(in reply to superbarre)

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RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 8/5/2008 3:19:04 PM

mjobtx

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From: Plano, TX
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If I didn't have more than 100 bottles, I would not make it through half the year. I would be buying constantly. If you keep meticulous records, look at your consumption history in CT. It might surprise you. Like some of you, I buy older vintages that are ready or near ready to enjoy. With today's prices, the older vintages are less expensive than the exhorbitantly priced recent vintages. I buy selectively in anticipation of my requirements and in line with my preferences; always with an eye to price. I tend to buy wines I like when I can find them from a reputable source for >20% less than the best price I can find on Wine-Searcher Pro. While not a perfect system, it has served me well.

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RE: Consume or Collect? That is the question - 8/6/2008 2:10:37 PM

smahk

Posts: 68
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From: Long Island, NY
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Agree with you mjobtx. I hate to get the consumption reports from CT. I always have to remember which weekends we had guests - of brought multiple bottles to a gathering so I don't feel guilty about consuming them all myself.

I also can't pass up a bargain - it seems local small wine shops have truly varied pricing - almost as if they priced their inventory once - upon delivery and never repriced. Some bottles could be 5 or 10 years old - with orginal prices. I always pop into a wine store I am passing just "to see". Much more knowledgeable now that my phone has an internet connection and I can check with wine searcher and cellar tracker before purchasing.

(in reply to mjobtx)

Post #: 26