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Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 6:45:19 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 911
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online 		As much as I know and love Bordeaux I am starting to dip my toes into the complex world of discovering Burgundy by way of expanding my knowledge.

Do any of you Burgundy-ites have suggestions as to how/where to start with this most bewildering of regions?  I've been doing a fair bit of research and have pestered my French wife to drive me around the region later in the year but in the meantime I'm trying give myself a good appreciation of the region. 

I'm based in London so getting access to the wines should not be a problem (the bank manager might disagree) so do any of you have some good suggestions?

I realise this is opening myself up to a bewildering array of choice, but I figured I may as well go to the guys who know what they are talking about, ie: you lot.


_____________________________

-- Paul
Post #: 1
Burg - 7/10/2008 7:37:42 AM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: online 		Paul, I'll be very honest:
as much as I love and enjoy the region, I don't know it that well.  There was no any systematic approach in learning,
just tasting, more tasting and identifying the favorite producers available in our area and where I usually buy.

Organised tastings, commercial by stores, boards recomendations, CT TN's -
all this help and...I do not want spending time on "learning" as I am afraid the academic knowledge might interfere with the pure pleasures.

_____________________________

Do you really think you understand terroir!? -

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 2
RE: Burg - 7/10/2008 7:43:06 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 911
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online 		This is good news!!!!  So basically what you are telling me is that I should just go and drink as much as I possibly can?   Marvellous news.  Maybe not for the liver, but what the hell.

My wife was talking me through the whole region and it was her who said "You know what, lets take the car, you drink, I drive and that is the best way to discover".  I knew I married the right girl.

_____________________________

-- Paul

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 3
RE: Burg - 7/10/2008 7:48:03 AM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: online 		right girl indeed!

Few pointers I can share, the pointers bestowed upon me by Burg lovers:

1) In Burgudy the producer is more important than the vintage

2) 1 Cru requires at least 10 years and Grand Cru 15+ for better showing
(reds)

3) start with village wines, they are cheaper and give some ideas of what the winemaker is all about

4) Don't be afraid to fail by trying staff you don't like,
negative expereince is also experience.

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(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 4
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 8:30:56 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

As much as I know and love Bordeaux I am starting to dip my toes into the complex world of discovering Burgundy by way of expanding my knowledge.

Do any of you Burgundy-ites have suggestions as to how/where to start with this most bewildering of regions? 




I assume you are talking about Red Burgundy (the Pinot Noir wines), right. The whites (Chardonnay-based) are probably the best whites in the world, but you probably know those from before.

Red Burgundy is considered complicated primarily because, unlike Bordeaux, the plots (vineyards) in Burgundy are cultivated by multiple producers (owners).

Take the Grand Cru Vineyard of Chambertin, for example. Its size is 32 acres for Pinot Noir, but there are more than 10 different producers in that 32-acre vineyard. Four of those guys are wonderful, but the rest is uneven. And therein lies the so-called "complexity" of choosing Burgs.

But in reality, it is simpler. Take the vintage into account and follow the producers.

Patrice Rion is a good producer to get you started. I have repeatedly suggested the 2002 and 2004 vintages of the Michele & Patrice Rion Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Clos des Argillières to get people started in Burgundy. The 2002 is a better wine, but the 2004 will do nicely too. The 2005 Patrice Rion Cote de Nuits Villages is a cheaper way to get started with Rion's wines that will also work well.

Other producers which are nice to get started with are Antonin Guyon (try the 2005 La Justice Domaine de la Guyonni�re, Domaine de L'Arlot, and Sylvie Esmonin (try the wonderful 2005 Gevrey-Chambertin Vieilles Vignes or Serge's beloved Esmonin wine mention in this thread).

If you need some thing a little more affordable there is always a small producer called Domaine de la Romanee Conti...

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 5
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 8:52:34 AM   
RoundersRob

 

Posts: 735
Joined: 7/1/2006
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Status: offline 		I agree with Serge.  Focus on a producer you like.  Just don't make one of the first of your favorites from  $Dujac$  (Thanks Serge). 

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 6
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 9:16:10 AM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		Maestro is the man on this topic, I would only ass a few suggestions which I have enjoyed.

2005 Nicolas Potel Nuits St. Georges
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=323588

2005 Château de Chamirey Mercurey
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=396909

2005 Faiveley Mercurey Clos des Myglands
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=332897


2005 Alain Michelot Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Aux Champs Perdrix
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=471424


How do you turn the name of a wine into a link?

(in reply to RoundersRob)
Post #: 7
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 9:24:15 AM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: apes




How do you turn the name of a wine into a link?


step 1:
type [url=blah-blah-blah]

step 2:
type wine name

step 3:
type [/url] after the wine name

End Result:
2005 Nicolas Potel Nuits St. Georges

and to insert the image

step 1:
type [img]

step 2:
insert URL of the image like http://www.cellartracker.com/labels/69547.jpg

step 3:
type [/img]

end result


< Message edited by Serge Birbrair -- 7/10/2008 9:29:55 AM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 9:29:13 AM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		I think I was not clear. Maestro has links with just the wine name and no URL (see his blog on this forum), that is what I would like to do.

Other producers which are nice to get started with are Antonin Guyon (try the 2005 La Justice Domaine de la Guyonni�re, Domaine de L'Arlot, and Sylvie Esmonin (try the wonderful 2005 Gevrey-Chambertin Vieilles Vignes or Serge's beloved Esmonin wine mention in this thread).
quote:




Other producers which are nice to get started with are Antonin Guyon (try the 2005 La Justice Domaine de la Guyonni�re, Domaine de L'Arlot, and Sylvie Esmonin (try the wonderful 2005 Gevrey-Chambertin Vieilles Vignes or Serge's beloved Esmonin wine mention in this thread).

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 9
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 9:30:42 AM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: online 		check the post above yours

_____________________________

Do you really think you understand terroir!? -

(in reply to apes)
Post #: 10
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 10:07:33 AM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: online 		Maestro, do you have TN for
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=395631
2005 Domaine Patrice Rion Charmes-Chambertin

I went to the store to pick up the wines for the Aug 16th tasting and picked this one as well, based on your rec.


_____________________________

Do you really think you understand terroir!? -

(in reply to RoundersRob)
Post #: 11
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 10:08:05 AM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		test


[url=http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=323588]nicolas potel/url



I failed.

Time to go golfing

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 12
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 10:10:10 AM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: apes

test


you failed because you forgot typing [   ] before and after  /url
if you typed instead [/url] you'd have it all!

nicolas potel

< Message edited by Serge Birbrair -- 7/10/2008 10:13:44 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 10:21:43 AM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		2005 Patrice Rion Côte de Nuits Villages

Last chance

Thanks serge

< Message edited by apes -- 7/10/2008 10:22:05 AM >

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 14
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 10:34:29 AM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: online 		oh good!

Now I can teach you how to post pictures of nekkid women from the internet
:)

_____________________________

Do you really think you understand terroir!? -

(in reply to apes)
Post #: 15
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 12:05:57 PM   
RoundersRob

 

Posts: 735
Joined: 7/1/2006
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

oh good!

Now I can teach you how to post pictures of nekkid women from the internet
:)


There are naked women on the internet? 

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 16
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 2:07:16 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: RoundersRob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

oh good!

Now I can teach you how to post pictures of nekkid women from the internet
:)


There are naked women on the internet? 



Men too!

This is what I think of when I read Colonel's posts:
http://office-humour.co.uk/item/4575/

_____________________________

Do you really think you understand terroir!? -

(in reply to RoundersRob)
Post #: 17
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 2:20:14 PM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

Maestro, do you have TN for
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=395631
2005 Domaine Patrice Rion Charmes-Chambertin

I went to the store to pick up the wines for the Aug 16th tasting and picked this one as well, based on your rec.



Sorry, no TNs, but I tasted almost all Rion wines from 2005 in a 2005 Burg tasting in Paris and they were all good to excellent.

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 18
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 2:27:18 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: online 		Cool, we'll compare notes 15 years from now than

_____________________________

Do you really think you understand terroir!? -

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Post #: 19
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 3:29:06 PM   
Rak

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 7/6/2007
Status: offline 		Hello pjaines,

Thank you for starting another splendid red Burgundy discussion thread. I can't remember who said, I'm paraphrasing, 'Burgundy is loved by poets, Bordeaux is prefered by accountants'! Please no hate mail; I'm attempting to be gently provocative.

Serge, is a systematic approach to this 'Alice in wonderland' (simultaneously knowable and unknowable?) region really not possible? How disspiriting!

I love the suggestions so far on this thread.

Serge suggested a 2005 Bourgogne Rouge from S Esmonin. I eventually located this much applauded wine at Pinels in the UK. They charged £28 for delivery and were awfully unhelpful (am I allowed to say this?).  All was not lost; I located a genuinely thrilling 2005 Bourgogne Rouge from Domaine des Croix. This splendid wine, from Berry Brothers & Rudd, is astonishingly concentrated and unusually complex for this most basic of appelations.

Just had an idea for anothe Burg thread....

Happy drinking indeed!

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 20
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 6:53:16 PM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		A little practice, and a nice bottle after a lousy round of golf (that is the score not the company)

If I want to post naked pictures I can ask my son.

2005 Gilles-Jourdan Côte de Nuits Villages Robignotte

quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

oh good!

Now I can teach you how to post pictures of nekkid women from the internet
:)

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 21
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 7:46:47 PM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 560
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

Cool, we'll compare notes 15 years from now than



Yes, you make an interesting point here. Apart from the simpler village wines, the 2005 vintage will require between 5-10 years of bottle age to peak, and the best will drink well for 20-25 years.

For more immediate consumption try the ones from 1999 to 2001. The 2002 wines depend on producer style. I am drinking my Patrice Rion wines from 2002, while waiting on my Michel Lafarge ones from the same vintage.

The 2004s are mostly wines for the short haul and can be drunk in their youth, while the 2003s need another 5 years on average.

But these are 1er Cru and Grand Cru guidelines. Village wines will drink sooner and not last as long.

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 22
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 8:35:56 PM   
Paul S

 

Posts: 504
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: Singapore
Status: offline 		My two cents worth.. Might I humbly suggest that good way to learn while you drink would be (in order of how advanced you want to get):

1. Read wikipedia on Burgundy;
2. Watch the Burgundy chapter on Jancis Robinson's really very good DVD series;
3. Pick up a Burgundy chapter from a good encyclopedia - I use Larousse at home, Sotheby's is not bad too;
4. Read up Burgundy Report (Bill Nanson's fabulous site);
5. Move on to the Burgundy chapter of Kermit Lynch's book "Adventures on the Wine Route"; and
6. Get a copy of Clive Coates excellent book, "Wine of Burgundy" or, if you want to be more focused, his "Cote d'Or"

If you drink enough of the wines as you move along this little list, I would think that you would have a pretty solid foundation to explore the joys of Burgundy.

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 23
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 8:36:37 PM   
Paul S

 

Posts: 504
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: Singapore
Status: offline 		And of course, as has been repeated ad nauseum, the three key words in Burgundy are "producer, producer, producer"

(in reply to Paul S)
Post #: 24
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/10/2008 11:06:37 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: online 		Rak, of course systematic approach is possible, just like paul outlined it. My temperment prevents me from systematic approach. I don't like fishing for the same reason.

_____________________________

Do you really think you understand terroir!? -

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Post #: 25
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/11/2008 12:38:35 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 911
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online 		Chaps,
As expected, a dewildering but helpful amount of advice.  Given that it is Friday and that my journey through London takes me past umpteen-million wine merchants I will go armed with my credit card and eager taste buds tonight on the way home.

I also pop over to France to see the in-laws once every couple of months (and raid the father in laws vast wine cellar) so I'll see what I can pick up in Lille for more long term aging.
Funnily enough the father-in-law has a cellar of about 5,000 bottles and only about 100 of those are Burgundy - apparently it is more difficult for him to get hold of it than Bordeaux without actually driving down to Burgundy and bringing it back himself.  And before you all suggest the internet, this is a man who can just about turn on the television never mind surf the web.
From my experience in France it is much harder to buy good Burgundy from the usual retail outlets than Bordeaux.



_____________________________

-- Paul

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 26
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/11/2008 2:50:28 AM   
Paul S

 

Posts: 504
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: Singapore
Status: offline 		It is horribly difficult to get good Burgundy in France at a decent price outside of Beaune!

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 27
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/11/2008 4:23:35 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 2093
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

This is what I think of when I read Colonel's posts:
http://office-humour.co.uk/item/4575/


Admit it, it's not just my posts, it's on your tortured mind all the time.
Just don't wear your kilt back to front - which a good American friend of mine did to a St. Andrews Ball.
And don't sit on your dirk.
http://www.medieval-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/AW5707-dirk.jpg
L.

_____________________________

First they came for ....................

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)
Post #: 28
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/11/2008 4:42:46 AM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: online 		Colonel, you got it all wrong, I was the one wearing the kilt, you were the one who was holding the ladder.
:)

_____________________________

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(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 29
RE: Discovering Burgundy - Suggestions welcome - 7/11/2008 7:40:08 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 2093
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		The Scot's would issue a fatwa on me if I did.
The rules are - everyone in the world can wear a kilt, except the English.
It's probably our knees or from watching Braveheart and Rob Roy too many times.
I mean you wouldn't know which side to hate if we all wore kilts.
L.

_____________________________

First they came for ....................

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