Does California need a wake-up call?

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Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/24/2008 3:31:08 PM

Maestro

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Bear in mind that I live in Europe and may therefore not have access to the "good stuff", but...

As the movie "Bottle Shock" approaches its release and shall celebrate the day the French got their wake-up call in 1976, I wonder if California is actually in need of a wake-up call right now.

Most California wines I can buy over here seem to be consistently declining in personality and becoming rather homogeneous in their "vanilla/coconut/lots-of-oak/fruit forward" approach.

Here's my latest disappointment: http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=144747

Sure, every now and again I taste something delicious, but the average quality of what I come across seems to be going South. Not so much in absolute quality (the wines are usually well made and all), but in personality (or lack thereof).

Maybe one needs to spend $8,000 in a bottle of Screaming Eagle these days to be impressed?

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/24/2008 3:42:30 PM

Serge Birbrair

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Maestro,
what country are you in?
I'd like to use few wine searching websites and find some real and inexpensive goodies in your area.

California is much better than the samples you tried suggest.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/24/2008 3:50:20 PM

Maestro

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Serge,

I work and spend time in many countries, but my cellar is in Italy, so if you can find it in Italy that would be convenient.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/24/2008 4:02:36 PM

JohnNezlek

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Dear Colleagues,

I am not certain that California needa a wake-up call. They are selling wines for absolutely crazy prices because people are willing to pay these prices. It is consumers who need the wake up call. Although the same can be said of upsale wines from many areas (e.g., Bordeaux), I see a lot of peole spending a lot on a bottle of California wine to say that they have done so. The fact that the phrase "Cult Wine" has become synonymous with "expensive" is one manifestation of this. For example, if I am not mistaken, Screaming Eagle is produced by a winery started by two real estate agents. I apologize (or apologise) for any offensive, but if there is a group of people who know how to create value from nothing, it is realtors. I like California wines (or at least I have liked many California wines). It is just that for me, there is too much style (hype) and not enough substance. Moreover, having lived (and simply stayed) in Europe for some time, I will offer the opinion that California wines are not readily available in Europe, particularly the better QPR wines, just as various good European QPR wines are not readily available in the US.

Cheers,

John

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/24/2008 4:08:30 PM

Serge Birbrair

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Italy is a bit of a problem, but/...
"Seek and ye shall find!"
;)

http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/Dominus/1994/Italy/EUR/A/-/0

http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/Duckhorn/2/Italy/EUR/A/-/0

http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/Caymus/1997/Italy/EUR/A/-/0

Those are from personal expereince, I'm sure the members can make more suggestions as "Napa" my "once in a blue Moon" region.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/24/2008 4:12:03 PM

Serge Birbrair

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnNezlek

They are selling wines for absolutely crazy prices because people are willing to pay these prices. It is consumers who need the wake up call.

John,
I think the consumers will get this call pretty soon!

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/24/2008 4:19:03 PM

JohnNezlek

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Serge,

I certainly hope they do. There are times when I feel as if "my" Rome is burning around me.

John

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/24/2008 6:03:40 PM

smahk

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I am amazed at the prices some Californias are fetching. Compared to some "New World" wines that are awesome and US$70 - it has turned me off California too. However - I have a Napa trip planned this summer and am now playing "catch-up" to get a better education and visit some wineries that are great and perhaps do not distribute widely.

Maestro - this is my best "find" - (I got it from reading the tasting notes!) just great - with a good QPR - but I'm not sure it would be available in Italy. Myabe look for it on a trip to the States?
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=446559

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/24/2008 6:47:38 PM

Pavie Princess

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too many focus on price..........i focus on quality Cali has few consistent homerun producers........France does and people pay up for it. The high end wine mkt is alive and well while the low and mid range are in turmoil.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/24/2008 6:58:18 PM

deb293

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And who would you say are the consistent home run producers in California?

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/24/2008 11:11:36 PM

Paul S

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And while we are on this topic, I need some advice on whether I should pick up a bottle or two of Philip Togni Cab 2004 for US$105 - is that good value? And is that a good wine? I know absolutely nothing about US reds.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 3:35:17 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul S

And while we are on this topic, I need some advice on whether I should pick up a bottle or two of Philip Togni Cab 2004 for US$105 - is that good value? And is that a good wine? I know absolutely nothing about US reds.

Now this is a case of the blind leading the blind - my knowledge of CA is limited to being able to find it on a map.
But ......................
I've only ever bought one CA wine to keep and it was a Philip Togni Cab.
Coincidence?
I suspect I read something good about is (can't actually remember, it was a while back).
Still got it - I'll drink it this summer in your honour!
Cheers,
L.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 4:18:42 AM

Serge Birbrair

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I like the producer, but I have no clue about the vintage. I stopped buying Cali Cabs after 2002 for the lack of values.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 5:47:42 AM

pbm

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Maestro,

I think the observation about CA is both fair and unfair. In part, it depends upon why you are buying and what you're looking for.

It's true that many (most? all?) of the better known producers have priced themselves at points that are almost insulting. If you're observation is primarily focused on wines that would compare to the premier wines of France, for example, you'll get no argument from me. Frankly, I find many pedestrian as well. In addition, not only do I have a tough time telling the difference between bottles that cost hundreds from those that cost significantly less but I really don't care to as I won't be drinking them on a regular basis anyway. (I don't collect as an investment so that eliminates that rationale.) In the end, I have three classes of wine: 1) everyday; 2) weekend; and 3) special occasion -- which can be everything from good friends joining us for dinner to birthdays, anniversaries, etc. Hence, if I can find a good deal on a special occasion CA wine, great. If not, I don't get upset about it because it does not represent an important aspect of the wine experience for me.

What's not fair about the observation is that there are numerous GREAT wines being made in Napa and Sonoma for between $20-$35 a bottle. You just have to work much harder to find them and obtain them as most are from small, family run wineries. However, I'd say that it's well worth the effort and the "personality" stacks up with or exceeds what I've had from "value" regions like Spain, South America, and South Africa because those wines have to be mass produced to make it to most stores in the US. (Not that I haven't enjoyed wine from all of those locales, just that it is possible to find an equivalent QPR from CA.) Do the CA wines they equal or exceed the quality of first growth Bordeaux -- of course not but that's not the objective for me. Also, I will grant you it's a lot more difficult to engage in the "hunt" in CA when you're sitting across the pond. But the same is true for me with the small French and Italian producers.

The good news is that we leave for a week in Sonoma this Friday so I'll be able to put my bias to the test firsthand and let you know the outcome!

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 6:56:24 AM

Maestro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pbm

What's not fair about the observation is that there are numerous GREAT wines being made in Napa and Sonoma for between $20-$35 a bottle. You just have to work much harder to find them and obtain them as most are from small, family run wineries. However, I'd say that it's well worth the effort and the "personality" stacks up with or exceeds what I've had from "value" regions like Spain, South America, and South Africa because those wines have to be mass produced to make it to most stores in the US. (Not that I haven't enjoyed wine from all of those locales, just that it is possible to find an equivalent QPR from CA.) Do the CA wines they equal or exceed the quality of first growth Bordeaux -- of course not but that's not the objective for me. Also, I will grant you it's a lot more difficult to engage in the "hunt" in CA when you're sitting across the pond. But the same is true for me with the small French and Italian producers.

Well, maybe the problem lies in the "mass production=distribution agreement" issue.

I was actually invited to start a company to import "boutique wine" from Sonoma and Carneros to Europe. But as with every other time I was invited to enter the wine business world, my conclusion was the same: way too much work for little money.

< Message edited by Maestro -- 6/25/2008 6:59:00 AM >

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 8:00:59 AM

amm3rd

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CA is generally way over priced for me, but the good stuff is very enjoyable.

I buy very little CA anything, only intersting thing to me recently has been some Anderson Valley PN's. Let me know if anybody has any recommendations? AMM

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 8:38:22 AM

Dad of vinny

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I drink a ton of wine from California. The thing that has happened is when Insignia, Monte Bello and Cinq Cepages win WOTY from Spectator, the price goes up.

Other factors are when HWY 29 was washed out and Sonoma was inaccessible from the Bay area side for a few weeks a few years ago, wineries simply lost money. The state is facing a real estate crisis, leading to high rents and is always worrying about potential water and energy shortages. Factor in irrigating vines and producing small batches of wine from the "cult" producers, and you have very high retail pricing.

The other thing to consider is- drink Merlots instead of Cabs from Napa, maybe Syrahs instead of Pinots from Sonoma and SB. You will find high priced Merlot and Syrah, but you can also find great bargains. If you really want cabs, you can buy the big producer stuff like BV Rutherford Estates and some of the Beringer offerings that are in the mid range between the plonk offered at Target and their super high-end offerings.

Some mid range $20-50 wines that I like

Hall- Cabernet
Shafer Merlot- generally found for around $40-50 while the relenless Syrah is $70+ and Hillside select cab is $100+

Joseph Phelps le Mistral (Rhone style blend)

Chateau St Jean Cab and Merlot

or

Drink California Sauvignon Blanc- tons of great offerings and great prices. Good Zins are fairly inexpensive as well.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 8:47:29 AM

rjonas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro

Here's my latest disappointment: http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=144747

Maestro - A note in SO's defense... I happen to very much enjoy the SO wines but I have found that the Napa Valley wines need to cellar much longer than the community drinking windows would suggest.. Case in point, two years ago I stopped in at SO while on a business trip in Sonoma. We tried the Alexander Valley '03 release first, which was wonderful and then the Napa Valley '02 release. I was surprised as I enjoyed the AV more than the NV... UNTIL, I was given a private taste of a '98 NV... WOW....

I'll be leaving my '02 NV's until 2010 at least before I open them...

My .02...

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 9:29:37 AM

GalvezGuy

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I have a fair amount of CA in my cellar, but it is probably equally distributed between Napa, Sonoma, and the Central Coast (inluding Santa Barabara, Santa Cruz, and Paso Robles). If we continue to buy examples like Silver Oak for $90 a bottle (highway robbery IMHO) then the producers will continue to charge that price. I can buy five bottles of 2005 value Bordeaux that is the same or better quality for that price. I agree with pbm that if you look hard and work at, you can find the "under the radar" producers that give great juice for a fair price. The harder truth is that once these family producers are found and word gets out that they produce consistenly good juice, the price skyrockets because of demand, you can't blame the producers, they are doing what any sound business would do, charge the market price for their goods.

Anyway, great topic, and Silver Oak is one my favorites to put in a blind test against lesser known labels because it almost always underperforms for the price.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 9:29:50 AM

Paul S

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Oooh... after all the negative press about California wines on this thread, I have decided to stay away from Philip Togni and reward myself with a bottle of the cheaper, and rather reliable, Moss Wood Cabernet 1999 (from Margaret River, Australia for those not in the know) instead.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 10:04:56 AM

rbazinet

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Does California need a wake up call? Sure.
Does the average quality appear to be declining? Sure.

As per this wine (which I have tried) http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=144747

The average CT score is 90 with two people scoring it as low as 84 and two as high as 96. Maestro my friend, I think you have opened up a big can of worms.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 10:32:12 AM

Serge Birbrair

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rbazinet

Does the average quality appear to be declining? Sure.

Would this have anything to do with rising temperatures in the region?

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 7:14:47 PM

pbm

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Actually, I would suggest that the AVERAGE quality is increasing. However, that does not rule out the possible decline in quality of the high end wines -- nor does it rule out that the average QPR for the more widely available wines is decreasing.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 8:18:12 PM

mtennenbaum

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Hi folks -

Interesting discussion and one I think about fairly often.

Here are some suggestions as I am pretty deeply involved in California wine as a collector and consumer:

1. Dunn, both Howell Mtn (which ages incredibly slowly) and the Napa bottling. You can join the mailing list over the internet for this long time producer/maverick
2. Elyse wines, especially for Zinfandels. Again, you can join the mailing list over the internet.
3. Kamen Estate Cabernet, mailing list online is still open!
4.Ch. Montelena is fairly widely distributed and the cabs are great value IMHO
5.Realm Cellars, hard to find, but try the mailing list online
6.Tor Kenward for everything they make (torwines.com)
7. Clos Pepe Estate, again the online mailing list.

Several of these are not well known and sometimes you can pick up some of their older vintages at a good discount on WineBid.com too. My point is that in many cases you can work directly with the winery, establish a relationship and enjoy the benefits for many years.

I hope this helps, I used my own cellar as a current guides to those wine I think offer very good value

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 10:41:28 PM

Blue Shorts

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There are quite a few excellent California wines. California cabs have the largest incidence of ripoffs, imo. Some examples:

Silver Oak
Togni - Might be good if you can wait 20 years
screaming eagle
katheryn kennedy

Great Values:
Cliff Lede
Terra valentine

I have recently stumbled across a screaming CA Pinot value. My wife and I have fallen in love with Row Eleven Pinot - Santa Maria. I've been buying all I can get my hands on.

There are great Cali wines.... just not the ones you hear about all the time.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 10:54:00 PM

Paul S

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Looks like a good decision not to go for the Togni 2004 then. Are any of these ultra-expensive Californian cabs or chards really worth their price?

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/25/2008 11:11:33 PM

Maestro

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I have been examining all the suggested wines in this thread, and -- apart from the ones Serge found in Rome -- I can't get any of them over here.

So maybe the issue with California is that, to get the good stuff, you need to live in the US. Over here we get mostly the mass production stuff (Mondavi Woodbridge, etc), or the high-end stuff (Dominus, etc). The bottle of SO that triggered the discussion I actually bought at the vinery in Napa.

We have access to a somewhat wider range of Zinfandels over here, but the producers I can get (Seghesio, Ravenswood, Mondavi, Gallo, Renaissance, Parducci, Montevina, Ironstone...) seem to be going for the "vanilla/coconut/oak-oak-oak/jammy fruit/15.5-alcohol" formula.

There is a scene in "Bottle Shock" where Alan Rickman is sitting in a bar in California tasting wines, and -- in total amazement and disbelief -- he utters: "these Californian wines... they are so... good". I think this scene might continue to hold true today, though. We may still need to go all the way down there to experience the good stuff.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/26/2008 1:46:35 AM

dre

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I cant help but wonder how much the price of the wine went into your scoring of the wine.

and what region doesnt need a wake up call? I keep finding myself going back to the old world just so I can taste flavors other than oak, vanilla and jam. Then the old world wines are riddled with inconsistancy. Its like dodgeball with my pocketbook.

< Message edited by dre -- 6/26/2008 1:49:32 AM >

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/26/2008 3:28:52 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul S

Oooh... after all the negative press about California wines on this thread, I have decided to stay away from Philip Togni and reward myself with a bottle of the cheaper, and rather reliable, Moss Wood Cabernet 1999 (from Margaret River, Australia for those not in the know) instead.

I guess if you're going to drink it straightaway then it's best to avoid the Togni.
But..................................
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=118600
can a dozen CTers AND Gary Vannerchuk all be wrong?
I'll still drink mine this summer, but sadly with someone else.
Enjoy the Moss Wood, at least it has some age.
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=5965

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/26/2008 3:45:36 AM

Maestro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dre

I cant help but wonder how much the price of the wine went into your scoring of the wine.

No impact at all. The wine in the bottle was not worthy of a higher score. It was new oak-driven and rather underripe.

I can't rule out a bottle variation problem or a dumb phase (although the tannins were somewhat green and that does not get fixed by time).

I have no prejudice against SO. I have enjoyed it many times before. Hence the disappointment.

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Post #: 30