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New World vs. Old World - 3/19/2008 7:47:34 AM   
JBIZZLE

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		I am new to wine and I wanted to sample and taste the difference between an old world and a new world style of wine side by side.
How do you recommend I go about this making sure I have the right wines?
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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/19/2008 12:49:24 PM   
GalvezGuy

 

Posts: 298
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From: Galveston, TX
Status: offline 		I think there a few ways to go about it, but for me, the easiest (and probably cheapest) way would be to grab an Aussie Shiraz and compare it to a Syrah-based wine from the Northern Rhone.  You will see that the Aussie wine is really fruit forward and much softer.  The Rhone will have more secondary characteristics like olive and sage.  It will also seem more austere in comparison.

Other fun ways to test this are to get Santa Barbara Pinot and compare them to Burgundy.  This is harder to do because of price pressures.  The SB Pinot will smack in you the face with huge fruit (think black cherry Kool Aid and cherry cola) and almost Syrah-like density.  The Burg will be more elegant and have more secondary characteristics (forest floor, tea, dried cherry, rhubarb, etc).

Basically New World wines are more accessible and drink better in youth than Old World wines.  If you have a friend or a local wine merchant that you trust, have them help.

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/19/2008 1:11:34 PM   
JBIZZLE

 

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Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks for the info.....is it possible to taste these two styles of wine from the same region/grape?

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/19/2008 5:34:22 PM   
GalvezGuy

 

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From: Galveston, TX
Status: offline 		Sure, if you go to Santa Barbara or Paso Robles, you will find producers that make Syrah and Rhone Blends in both styles.  There are also producers in Southwest France where can get a similar blend, one that a riper and fruit forward and the other more angular, built to age rather than for immediate consumption.  Again, people that you trust with more knowledge (which is not a problem for me) can be a great help.

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/19/2008 7:14:07 PM   
cgrimes

 

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Status: offline 		Try an Oregon Pinot from Domaine Drouhin (same winemaker as their wines in Burgundy) for a French-influenced style and compare with another producer in Oregon such as Cristom (not exactly the same terroir but pretty close) which produces bigger wines.  I look at Oregon to be almost a middle ground between the styles of Burgundy and Santa Barbara County.

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/20/2008 1:07:13 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		New vs Old just has to have a great claret in the frame.
Why else do we have the justifiable drama of The Judgement of Paris
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Wine_Tasting_of_1976

L.
not at all biased by his holding of red Bordeaux ;)

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/20/2008 3:37:57 PM   
GalvezGuy

 

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From: Galveston, TX
Status: offline 		You might try Arrowood Syrah (very Rhone in style) and put it up against another Syrah (like Herman Story, Terlato, Beckman) to get an idea.  Your post inspired me to try that last night.  I am defnitely an Old World fan.

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/20/2008 5:01:07 PM   
JBIZZLE

 

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Status: offline 		So I went to my local wine shop and they set me up with these two wines....

2002 montevertine
toscana

and

2003 Sportoletti
Umbria


Which of these is the new world style and old world style? I am going to dig into them this weekend!

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Post #: 8
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/20/2008 7:44:31 PM   
cgrimes

 

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Status: offline 		I think they started you out on a tough combination of wines.  Let us know what you think.

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/20/2008 7:50:12 PM   
cgrimes

 

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Status: offline 		I like to do this exercise when I have friends over for dinner (both wine lovers and not).  I'll often serve two wines side by side as a "compare and contrast" for conversation sake.  This weekend with the main course (tenderloin of ostrich) I'll be serving a '99 Guigal Hermitage next to '00 Joseph Phelps Syrah.  Will see how it goes. I'll post an event note. 

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/21/2008 9:01:08 AM   
GalvezGuy

 

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From: Galveston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JBIZZLE

So I went to my local wine shop and they set me up with these two wines....

2002 montevertine
toscana

and

2003 Sportoletti
Umbria


Which of these is the new world style and old world style? I am going to dig into them this weekend!


I think it will be obvious when you dig into them, but I think they have given you an unfair comparison.  You have a Super Tuscan (Bordeaux style blend) up against a typical Italian Sangiovese blend.  It is not really a comparison of wine making styles if you don't match the primary grapes.  That being said, you will find one of these wines leaner, less fruity, and lower alcohol.

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/21/2008 10:42:32 AM   
apes

 

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From: CT
Status: offline 		Would you say in general old world wine needs food to accompany it and New world, while good with food is more drinkable without food in comparison?

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Post #: 12
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/21/2008 10:47:45 AM   
apes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GalvezGuy

You might try Arrowood Syrah (very Rhone in style) and put it up against another Syrah (like Herman Story, Terlato, Beckman) to get an idea.  Your post inspired me to try that last night.  I am defnitely an Old World fan.


Are you saying Terlato
(Domaine Terlato & Chapoutier Shiraz Lieu dit Malakoff )is New world, if New world is associated with more fruit forward, I did not find terlato to be in this catergory.  




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Post #: 13
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/21/2008 11:10:46 AM   
cgrimes

 

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From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		I think the typical French or Italian wine drinker would say that their wine is better with food because wine in general is only meant to be paired with food.  Otherwise, whether one prefers old world or new world wines with or without food is purely a matter of taste.  I would argue that many new world wines overpower most dishes but I'm sure you could find plenty of people who disagree with me.

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Post #: 14
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/21/2008 2:02:57 PM   
apes

 

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From: CT
Status: offline 		Dinner party tomorrow night, plan on doing some comparisons or maybe blind tastings. What do you think about comparing 1999 Chateau Gracia or 2001 Chateau confession with Kilikanoon 2004/5 Oracle or covenant? Thinking of also throwing in 2001 Meerlust Rubicon.

Dinner will be Cheese apps, followed by Lamb chops, roasted potato and grilled asparagus. Chocolate covered strawberry for desert.

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Post #: 15
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/21/2008 4:40:36 PM   
esb

 

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Joined: 1/17/2008
From: Bend, Oregon
Status: offline 		For a real world wine style discussion replace old world vs. new world with traditional vs. modern.

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Post #: 16
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/22/2008 12:55:26 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: esb

For a real world wine style discussion replace old world vs. new world with traditional vs. modern.



You'll probably run into problems with those descriptors.
If someone uses a stainless steal tank I assume by definition it's modern?
Is Pavie trad. or mod.?  It's certainly modified.
I think I'll stick with old versus new and avoid the definitional problems.
Perhaps we'll end up with a 2 by 2 matrix (old/trad, old/mod, new/trad, new/mod).

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Post #: 17
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/22/2008 12:58:06 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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From: Arabia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: apes

Would you say in general old world wine needs food to accompany it and New world, while good with food is more drinkable without food in comparison?



My greatest joy is great ''old'' world wine, without food, just savouring the moment.
I think poor wine definitely needs food to help disguise the shock to the palate.

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Post #: 18
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/22/2008 1:01:46 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		Only own the Oracle 2004 and am saving that for another couple of decades.
Gary Vanerchuk did do a program with it in.
Tell us how dinner went.
L.

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Post #: 19
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/22/2008 9:49:14 AM   
esb

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 1/17/2008
From: Bend, Oregon
Status: offline 		Colonel, I may be wrong, but I think the question is seeking to discover the difference between old/new world wine styles, or characteristics, without considering origin. For example, funky v. clean, oaky v. fruity, extracted and tannic v. soft and lighter. By suggesting t/m I was hoping to add some clarity. Some of the responses address the old/new question from a geographical perspective (origin) - Bordeaux v. Napa, Rhone v. Australia and as I stated earlier, I don't think that comparison is what they are seeking. Agree with your statements - compared to 40 years ago almost all wineries are modern. And how about changes in vineyard practices? Interesting, however, it's a long journey, with loads of quicksand, dangerous ravines, and no final destination.

I wouldn't spend too much time with this. Today most wines can't be stuffed into a neat, clean t/m box. Just pull corks and the differences will come into focus. Anyway, where is that Clerico Barbera - old world but very modern. If you must, Traditional wine style: Produttori del Barbaresco Modern wine style: Clerico

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Post #: 20
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/22/2008 11:50:27 AM   
esb

 

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From: Bend, Oregon
Status: offline 		Since the previous poster veered significantly from the topic and raised the vineyard issue I thought a quick comment may be acceptable. I think many winegrowers are now rejecting some recent innovations in an effort to deliver a more natural, balanced, flavorful grape to the cellar. Old/New - Traditional/Modern? The goal, of course, better wines.

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Post #: 21
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/22/2008 11:12:41 PM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: esb

The goal, of course, better wines.


Now there's something we can all drink to!

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/23/2008 6:22:18 AM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
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From: CT
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

Only own the Oracle 2004 and am saving that for another couple of decades.
Gary Vanerchuk did do a program with it in.
Tell us how dinner went.
L.


To make a long story short, dinner with guest got canceled. So I opened a bottle of Terlato shiraz for my wife and myself grilled a great steak with asparagus. Then I opened a bottle of Ruffino chianti, not for drinking but to make a red sauce for the in-laws today (sunday). I will let them drink the rest of the chianti, not a very good bottle. Will probably open a bottle of Meerlust Rubicon also,  that I will enjoy.

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Post #: 23
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/24/2008 2:31:12 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 521
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		This is one of those discussions to which it is impossible to provide all arguments in a objective manner.

In general terms, my reaction is to feel that things "lean" in those directions:


................................NEW WORLD.............OLD WORLD
................................(Modern)..................(Traditional)
FRUIT........................Tend to Sweet..........Tend to Tart
OAK..........................Toasty, Vanilla..........Spicy, Tobbacco-like
AROMATICS...............Fruit-driven..............Vegetal/Olives/Leather-driven
ALCOHOOL.................Hot..........................Cool
TANNINS...................Light, Silky...............Heavy, Dusty
PROFILE....................Fruit-forward............Fruit as one of many elements, wine is "backward"


Now, before you scream, there are a million and one exceptions to the characteristics above. You have backward new world wines and fruit-driven old world ones. You have hot old world wines and cool new world ones. And so on and so on...

And basically, nowadays, geography plays a much smaller role. There are many "modern" wines in Europe and "traditional" wines elsewhere.

But when all these characteristics are taken into consideration at the same time, you will see what I would use (as a whole) to baseline a judgement that would make me comment about a wine in terms of New World/Modern or Old World/Old School/Traditional.

A final aspect is that the more "traditional" a wine the longer it usually demands in terms of cellaring and patience.


< Message edited by Maestro -- 3/24/2008 2:41:31 AM >

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Post #: 24
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/24/2008 3:14:32 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		Would these descriptors fit?

New World = Manmade
Old World = Natural

And I don't mean either as being necessarily superior.

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/24/2008 10:45:58 AM   
fingers

 

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From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline 		I don't think so, CL.   I believe the original true expression really considered terroir and type of oak used for winemaking, and the techniques between Old & New are not that different.  The resulting wine is, though.

Maestro,  I'd also throw in the descriptors "dill & coconut", in reference to American oak.  It's always a dead giveaway to me.

Should we also throw in comparison of White Burgundy and Cali Chardonnay?  I can't think of a better example of new vs. old.   Sauvignon Blanc in France and New Zealand are a little tougher to discern.  Whatabout German Reislings vs.  Washington, Aussie, etc.?

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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/25/2008 5:42:24 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		A little out of my depth in a discussion on whites, but hear goes anyway:
I find (and my wife invariably finds) that New World chardonnays are just too sweet.
I'm sure there are some that aren't, but when you pick blind from the shelf the Ca and Aussie versions will not be dry enough for me.
1.  Do others find this?
2.  Has sweetness increased in the NW over the years (perhaps to cater for different palates).
3.  Does Burgundy's lousy weather actually help it produce great whites?
4.  Please point me in the direction of a good (non-sweet) New World Chardonnay.

My wife selects Sauvignon Blanc nowadays to avoid the sugar.



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RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/25/2008 6:00:28 AM   
Maestro

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

I find (and my wife invariably finds) that New World chardonnays are just too sweet.
(...) Ca and Aussie versions will not be dry enough for me.
(...) Please point me in the direction of a good (non-sweet) New World Chardonnay.
(...) My wife selects Sauvignon Blanc nowadays to avoid the sugar.



I reckon Rieslings don't fare well in the House of Colonel Lawrence...

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Post #: 28
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/25/2008 6:10:54 AM   
cgrimes

 

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Status: offline 		Here's my perspective (from someone who much prefers White Burgundy but ends up drinking CA chards by default on occasion).

The "sweetness" you and your wife notice is more a lack of acidity and excessive malo-lacto fermentation and oak.  Technically CA cabs are dry, meaning no residual sugar, but most parts of CA are much warmer than Burgundy and I think most also tend to leave the grape on the vine longer.  The result more fruit, less acidity.  They also tend to over oak which lends that buttery, vanilla character.  You get some of this in an oaky Burg such as a Meursault, but they still have a backbone of acidity to balance.  Compare an '03 Burg sometime to a CA chard--they are much more alike. That is why most of us who like white Burgs tended to avoid that hot vintage.  If you are looking for a compromise, try an Oregon Chard such as Dom Drouhin Arthur.  Definitely new world but more subtle about it.

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Post #: 29
RE: New World vs. Old World - 3/25/2008 11:24:41 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		That all seems very logical.
Quite inspired me to have a relook at good whites (been rather claret obssessed for the past few years).
I've even relegated them to a second CT account so that I can see the reds clearer.
Thanks for the Dom Drouhin Arthur rec. (linked to the Burgundy Drouhin?).
Thanks,
L.

And yes, never been a Riesling fan, but confess I remember drinking Blue Nun and being horrified.
Have a German friend who will drink nothing else, Riesling that is, not Blue Nun.

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