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New to the fun world of wine - 10/1/2008 6:00:32 PM   
mcease

 

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Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Toronto, Canada
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Hello, I am reletively new to the world of wine.  I like to drink California Cabs mostly but have dabled in other wines as well.  I did some tastings in Nappa Valley and in Ontario, but I would like to expand my knowledge.  I guess I would like suggestions on where to start.  I have recently aquired a house and am going to build a cellar soon.  Should I drink some wines from all regions to see what I like or should I stick to California since I am familiar with thier wine?  I guess I want to know how fast I should move (on limited funds of course).  I would like to get into French wine but dont know if I should take it country by country and perfect one before moving on to the next.

Thanks in Advance!
Post #: 1
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/1/2008 7:55:13 PM   
cgrimes

 

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From: Massachusetts
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcease

Hello, I am reletively new to the world of wine.  I like to drink California Cabs mostly but have dabled in other wines as well.  I did some tastings in Nappa Valley and in Ontario, but I would like to expand my knowledge.  I guess I would like suggestions on where to start.  I have recently aquired a house and am going to build a cellar soon.  Should I drink some wines from all regions to see what I like or should I stick to California since I am familiar with thier wine?  I guess I want to know how fast I should move (on limited funds of course).  I would like to get into French wine but dont know if I should take it country by country and perfect one before moving on to the next.

Thanks in Advance!


mcease, I recommend you take a region or country for a defined period (say 6mo) and learn and buy/taste mostly from that area.  It is fun, helps you train your palate, and will help you get some variety in your cellar. CA is great but lots of great wines in other regions too at all price levels.  And find someone you trust at a good local shop to (at least initially) point you in the right direction.  And you can always post questions here and get more opinions than you could imagine   Welcome!

(in reply to mcease)
Post #: 2
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/2/2008 2:15:53 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 924
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online
mcease - welcome to the board.

CG is bang on - get to know and trust certain wine shops who can point you  in different directions.  There are some great wines out there from all over the world.  So much drinking to do, so little time !!!! 

_____________________________

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Post #: 3
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/2/2008 3:06:58 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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From: Arabia
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I'm about three years ahead of you in getting into wine seriously.
I started by exclusively buying Bordeaux reds and reading everything I could about them, especially blind taste tests.
Now I'm pretty knowledgable on this one area and have a cellar that would be the envy of anyone keen on Bordeaux (particularly 2000's onwards).
Now I find Bordeaux wines frequently cost more than they are worth, i.e. I can buy wines just as good from other areas at a fraction of the price.
Obviously I'm now seriously looking into other areas, but it takes time and outside Bordeaux my knowledge base will be no better than yours, and on California much worse.
If I were you I'd work on California first and learn and build a cellar of wines that will keep for a number of years.  When you feel comfortable there, branch out, maybe South America, or France or Australia.
It doesn't really matter which way you do things as long as you do them well and have fun.
It's also worth recognising up front that there is a lot of hype and posing about wine - ignore it all.
Whether you love or hate him Gary Vaynerchuck of Wine Library has an irreverent approach that puts the snobs in their place.
Your biggest challenge will be drinking enough different wines, look on CT to see just how many there are in the world.
No one can be an expert on them all, whatever the Journals imply.
The greatest joy is to find a great tasting wine (according to your own pallate) that hasn't hit the radar screens yet.
Your local wine dealers will help in this regard, as will broad based wine tastings.
Finally find someone to enjoy the pastime with - drinking, critiquing is much more fun communally.
Enjoy!
L.



(in reply to mcease)
Post #: 4
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/2/2008 3:11:23 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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One additional thought, try and taste wines together, a few at a time (this is where some buddies help out to share the burden) and maybe from one area, or one vintage.
I personally find it easy to rate wines together - at a basic level you can just rank them in order.
I've also noted that even amateurs are pretty good at identifying the better wines like this.
L.

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Post #: 5
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/2/2008 6:32:05 AM   
mcease

 

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Thanks for replying!  I will take your advise and stick to one area at a time (for about 6 months or so) and branch out from there.  Now what region do I start on hmm....

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Post #: 6
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/2/2008 6:42:43 AM   
Wrighty

 

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mcease - all spot on advice. 

Would add if you like Cali cabs then think of somewhere next which is also a cab area, gives you a link and point of reference.  Obviously Bordeaux falls into this camp but so does Australia and I think you'll get better value.

The other thing on where to go next, is what you can get your hands on.  There's not much point me tackling Burgundy from HK as the choice is limited and expensive but I can get a good Aussi selection (which is where I started).

Happy drinking and keep posting.

Wrighty

(in reply to mcease)
Post #: 7
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/2/2008 8:38:22 AM   
mcease

 

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Thanks for the advise Wrighty!  I think I might tackle Australia after California because of the price points.  I would like to get into Bordeaux wines, but I might wait until my pallet developes a bit more and hopefully I will have more disposable (Drinkable) income in the near future.     

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Post #: 8
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/2/2008 12:04:19 PM   
rbazinet

 

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mcease,
 
My fellow Torontonian, welcome to CT.  One thing you should know about is Brant (bgibbard) posts the vintages new releases into CT every few weeks http://www.cellartracker.com/forum/LCBO_Vintages_Releases/m_20469/tm.htm
I find this quite interesting and helpful. 
 
Besides that, I enjoyed this last year and have tickets again this year http://www.heartandstroke.on.ca/site/c.pvI3IeNWJwE/b.4448481/k.8804/Vino_della_Vita.htm
 
and this is the night after … still thinking about it … usually very good
 
http://www.vintageslatest.com/displayEmail.jsp?uids=067406610642061006500708063306330644063307170713075807770757&mid_encoded=070607460728067306630677074907020700&eezeecrm_temp_id=0705063207650652077707020714

Richard

(in reply to mcease)
Post #: 9
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/2/2008 1:11:09 PM   
davidpg

 

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For great priced Cabs, I would really look into South America, Argentina in particular.

Chile is right up there, and the Tannats from Uruguay are great and downright CHEAP!

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"It is like an drunken anglo ultimate fighting dojo." - CBJ...
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(in reply to mcease)
Post #: 10
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/2/2008 8:30:20 PM   
mcease

 

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From: Toronto, Canada
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rbanzinet,

Thanks for the info I might check out one on those events.  I went to the food and wine festival last year and had a good time there - I will probably be going again this year.  I cant remember if they had a wide arangement of wines or if they were mostly from Ontario because I didnt have the wine bug last year. 

I will be sure to look out for the new vintages release each month.  This may be a dumb question but is there any futures available for California wines - I know that vintages sell Bordeaux futures but I was wondering if any other regions are sold.  Or if there is cheaper option to vintages which seems to be overpriced a bit.

I searched vintages for any Cabs from Cali that are available and I will be enjoying some shopping and tasting from Cali for the next few months yum

(in reply to rbazinet)
Post #: 11
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/2/2008 8:33:37 PM   
mcease

 

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From: Toronto, Canada
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Thanks! I will definately be checking out some other regions after I have my Cali kick.  I just might be on the South American train after Cali. Specially because the price sounds great.  Are there South American wines that are cellar worthy?

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Post #: 12
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/2/2008 8:48:09 PM   
J2K

 

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From: Pittsburgh, PA- U.S.A.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcease

Thanks! I will definately be checking out some other regions after I have my Cali kick.  I just might be on the South American train after Cali. Specially because the price sounds great.  Are there South American wines that are cellar worthy?


One of my favs
2005 Concha y Toro Cabernet Sauvignon Don Melchor
2004 Concha y Toro Cabernet Sauvignon Don Melchor



< Message edited by J2K -- 10/2/2008 8:50:15 PM >

(in reply to mcease)
Post #: 13
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 2:01:58 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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From: Arabia
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Yes start in South America (after Cal).
Chile then Argentina.
This shows how good they can be (rated against Bordeaux 1st's:












2000 Viñedo Chadwick

Viña Errázuriz,
Maipo Valley


1





2001 Seña

Viña Errázuriz & Robert Mondavi
Aconcagua Valley


2





2000 Château Lafite

Premier Grand Cru Classé
Pauillac


3





2001 Château Margaux

Premier Grand Cru Classé
Margaux


4





2000 Seña

Viña Errázuriz & Robert Mondavi
Aconcagua Valley


4





2000 Château Margaux

Premier Grand Cru Classé
Margaux


6





2000 Château Latour

Premier Grand Cru Classé
Pauillac


6





2001 Viñedo Chadwick

Viña Errázuriz
Maipo Valley


6





2001 Don Maximiano Founder's
Reserve


Viña Errázuriz
Aconcagua Valley


9





2001 Château Latour

Premier Grand Cru Classé
Pauillac


10





2000 Solaia

Marchesi Antinori
Toscana IGT


10
 
And more humble wines:
http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Free/0,3739,20,00.html
 
http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Features/0,1197,4317,00.html
and an article on Chile vs Argentina :
Wine Chile v Argentina - an old rivalry
The world’s wine lovers are currently hearing a great deal about Asian wine’s emergence on the international scene. They have been aware of Australian wine for decades and South African wine for centuries. But the continent that is really making a particularly marked impact on wine lists around the world for the first time ever is South America. It is worth getting to grips with their very distinct and fast-changing styles of wine.
Until being overtaken by the US in the early 1990s, Argentina made more wine than any country outside Europe, even if the majority of it was unexportable, coarse stuff made from the unimaginably prolific local Criolla and Cereza grapes that have no pretensions to quality. But in the cocktail of immigrants that make up the Argentine population, those of Italian stock are so numerous as to have kept Argentina’s average per capita wine consumption up in the top ten – a fact that has to a certain extent distracted the country from exporting her better quality wines.
There is also the unavoidable fact that until the very late 20th century, only a tiny proportion of the massive volume of wine made in Argentina was sophisticated enough to find favour abroad. Thanks to introductions from Argentina’s longest-serving wine writer Dereck Foster, I toured the bodegas of Mendoza, Argentina’s wine capital, in the mid 1990s and was amazed by what I found. The people were delightful, but the bodegas were warm and dusty and many of the wines somewhere between a syrup and vinegar. I brought back some of the best examples of Argentina’s signature grape Malbec, revelling in the fact that with their unashamed potency and velvety texture they were so very different from the European norm. I tried them, blind, on a few fellow wine professionals back in Europe. They were not a success.
Today however Argentina well and truly belongs to the outside world. When I tasted well over 300 wines there recently, judging the first-ever Wines of Argentina Awards, I was amazed, and only very slightly disappointed in a nostalgic sort of way, to see how sophisticated most of the wines had become. Even the big, beefy Malbecs seemed to have dropped a degree or two of alcohol and received what I am tempted to call a French polish. Indeed, so marked was the transformation of Argentine Malbecs that it inspired the guy in charge of promoting Argentina wines in the UK to challenge me to choose a range of Pinot Noirs to put up against them in a blind tasting (see this account).

But Argentina has long had a much wider range of grape varieties to play with than Chile: not just Malbec but oceans of a grape called Bonarda (that has been identified with not the Italian grape of the same name but with the rather obscure Savoie grape known as Charbono in California), lots of Cabernet and Merlot, Tempranillo, more recently Syrah, and Pinot Noir planted at increasingly high altitudes. Among whites, Argentina’s own headily-perfumed signature light-skinned grape Torrontés, recently established as the progeny of Muscat of Alexandria and one of the Criollas, has now been joined by Chardonnay, Viognier, and Sauvignon Blanc, currently regarded as ultra-fashionable by the Argentines themselves.

Even though Argentina was for ages a particularly isolated country, and the wine business has tended to be dominated by small and medium sized fiercely independent family companies, the Argentina wine business is slowly starting to export wine. (They have long had an extremely successful trade in exporting grape concentrate to cola and fruit juice manufacturers in the US, and to Russia and Japan, which usefully provides a market for those inferior grape varieties.) By 2006, Argentina was exporting about 10 per cent of its annual production and is enjoying particularly strong demand in the US, not least I suspect because it can offer wines that have the body and direct fruity flavours of California at generally much lower prices. The fact that the famous consultant French oenologist Michel Rolland has so publicly embraced Argentina by setting up his own substantial operation in the hills above Mendoza has done no harm to Argentina’s image either. But this is the beginning of a long road for Argentina which is finding progress slow in Europe but may well simply decide to concentrate its export efforts on North America.

Less an hour’s hop from Mendoza across the spectacular snow-covered Andes which provide the key to viticulture in these parts through meltwater irrigation, is the centre of Chile’s wine industry which is well under half the size of Argentina’s but which already exports three times as much wine as Argentina, a massive 75 per cent of its production in fact.  Unlike Argentina, Chile does not (yet?) have a vibrant wine culture, even though it has been planting vines so enthusiastically recently that the government has announced a vine pull programme. Chileans area much more likely to drink beer and spirits than wine (though it is their grape-based spirit pisco, for tangy pisco sours, that tends to appeal to visiting wine lovers).

The Chilean winescape is quite distinctive – indeed many viticulturists regard Chile as the single most privileged place in the world to grow vines. Phylloxera has never struck here, perhaps thanks to the protection of the Andes to the east and desert to the north. Most vines are therefore ungrafted and were planted simply by sticking cuttings in the fertile ground. Many of the vines, like the Chilean varietal speciality Carmenère that was wrongly identified as a strain of Merlot until the late 20th century, are the direct descendants of cuttings brought from Bordeaux before phylloxera wiped out the Bordeaux wine business in the late 19th century. In general Chilean vineyards are subject to hardly any vine pests and diseases in general, and none of the hail that perennially plagues Mendoza. Although some of the newer, cooler regions such as Casablanca and Malleco in the far south have been known to suffer from spring frosts, the major difficulty that Chilean vine growers encounter is that vines are too productive – a problem that is currently being addressed by the increasing proportion of truly ambitious wine producers here.

Until the beginning of this century Chile was known chiefly a useful source of reliable and inexpensive red bordeaux varietals Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot, but it has been working hard to upgrade and broaden this image – with considerable success. Today, thanks largely to exploring much more challenging terrains than the flat, easily irrigated, extremely fertile Central Valley, Chile can offer a wide range of increasingly fine white wines (facilitated by the same sort of cooling Pacific fogs that help so many California vine growers), quite subtle Pinot Noirs, some very serious Syrah indeed and a wide range of other grape varieties influenced by terroirs that vary, as in Argentina, from semi desert in the north to southern districts strongly influenced by the Antarctic.

It will be interesting to see how these two big wine producing rivals fare in their attempts to seduce the wine lovers of the world now that they are both producing wines of real sophistication and value.
If it’s beef you want, Argentina is probably still the place to head for, but Chile can now boast a much, much wider menu than even five years ago.


Wines of Chile in the UK is thrilled by the news that according to the latest AC Nielsen data, till receipts to June 2007, sales of Chilean wine in the UK have, for the first time, exceeded those of Spanish wine. Chile now has its highest ever share of the UK retail market, 6.9%, which means that it is now sixth most important exporter of wine to the UK after Australia, France, the US, Italy and South Africa. Spanish wine sales in the UK have been in decline because sales of really cheap Spanish wine have plummeted – even though there is considerable interest in the better quality wines of Spain among British wine lovers, even if slightly less than among their American counterparts. Spain produces about seven times more wine than Chile in total.

Sales of Chilean wine in the £5 to £10 bracket – generally considered to be Chile’s greatest strength – grew by 26% over the last 12 months, and Chile now sells 14% more wine priced above £5 than South Africa. Wines of Chile’s UK Director Michael Cox claims to have South Africa, once an exporter of massive quantities of inexpensive white wine to the UK, firmly in its sights.

Official export statistics issued from Chile for the 12 months to May 2007 confirm that the UK has consolidated its position as Chile’s most important export market. Chile’s exports to the UK grew in volume by 10% to 9.86 million cases and in value by 20% to US$189 million. Total exports from Chile have exceeded a billion US dollars for the first time.
Argentina’s share of the UK market has declined to 1.4% according to AC Nielsen.
publication date: Jul , 2007
author/source: Syndicated
 JancisRobinson.com

(in reply to mcease)
Post #: 14
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 2:18:52 AM   
pjaines

 

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From: London
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Colonel - I see Norton Privada got a gold.  I think it was you who was saying this is one of your constant purchases.

I've bought the stuff a few times and have always been quite impressed given the price.

I see the Sophenia 2005 was on there too.


_____________________________

-- Paul

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Post #: 15
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 5:32:52 AM   
rbazinet

 

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From: Toronto, Ontario
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mcease,
I am pretty sure vintages doesn't have a futures for cali wines.  Every 3 months or so they release a "classics catalogue" which you can purchase (email or phone) some “rare” wines.  Usually there are about 6-12 cali reds on the list.

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 16
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 5:39:04 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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Yes Norton Privada is the wine I have actually consumed most of - ever!

It's really a matter of availability though (in the UAE) and if Concannon Reserve hadn't gone permanently out of stock it might have won the accolade.
L.

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Post #: 17
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 7:58:40 AM   
mjobtx

 

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mcease, the good news for you is that there are quite a few knowlegeable and affable wine lovers in the Toronto area.  Some of whom post here and some post both here and at other forums such as winespectator.com 

The best advice I could give is to contact them and get together with them at some of their many offlines.  You will have Italian experts, Bordeaux experts, Champagne experts etc. as your guide.

Welcome to the board.

_____________________________

PlanoWino

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Post #: 18
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 8:35:49 AM   
mcease

 

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From: Toronto, Canada
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Thanks for these articles - Very interesting!  I will definately be checking out these wines plus others from South America.  I'm sure they are excellent and how can I refuse at a great price point. 

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 19
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 8:35:56 AM   
Wrighty

 

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Without being contrary, disagree on the South America theme as an area to develop your palate. Some good wines and think Argentinian Malbec is worth exploring but [depending on availability] Australia has a much broader range in price and area of cabs to work on.

Margaret River has at least 4 worthy of 2nd Growth status (Moss Wood ,Diana Madeline, Woodlands, Gralyn) and probably twice as many comparable to a classed growth (Voyager, Vasse Felix, Brookland Valley, Leeuwin as a start) then there's Maclaren Vale, Limestone Coast and especially Coonawarra - all good cab areas (look out for Parker, Katnook, Majella, Wynns and Petaluma). Then you've got boutiques like Lakes Folly, Giaconda and Mount Mary (all 2nd Growth quality I believe)

Then I'd suggest you look at Heartland, Battle of Bosworth and even Penfold's Bin cabs (esp 707).

Perhaps the next on-line tasting is a South America vs. Australia cab event!



(in reply to mjobtx)
Post #: 20
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 9:21:40 AM   
mcease

 

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Thanks for the info.  Does it reallly matter what country/region I do first or will it all come together in the end anyway?  Or are you just saying that you think Austrailia has more to offer then South America. 

Cheers.

(in reply to Wrighty)
Post #: 21
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 9:44:30 AM   
Wrighty

 

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No, it doesn't matter where you go next. It's just I think you'll get a broader spectrum of cabs [and wines] in Australia. I keep revisiting South America but can't 'find it' - was just reading my notes from last year's Decanter tasting which seem to back this up.

http://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=3230

Wrighty

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Post #: 22
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 9:56:11 AM   
mcease

 

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Thanks for this.  I might decide where to go next based on what is available to me here in Canada.  I am not sure if Australia or South America would have more wines readily available to me.  I guess I can always take a trip across the boarder or purchase online as well.

(in reply to Wrighty)
Post #: 23
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 10:14:55 AM   
rbazinet

 

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From: Toronto, Ontario
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mcease,
If you figure out how to puchase wine online and get them back to Ontario [reasonably and legally], let me know.

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Post #: 24
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 10:21:10 AM   
mcease

 

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From: Toronto, Canada
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I will definately let you know.  The only way I can think of now is to cross the boarder into Buffalo and see what they have to offer or set up a USA shipping address and bring them over a couple at a time.  I guess the shipping address would depend on you having family/friends in the States. 

(in reply to rbazinet)
Post #: 25
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 10:31:42 AM   
rbazinet

 

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From: Toronto, Ontario
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True.  Furthermore, I think that we need to spend something like 24hr in the US to return 1.5 L of wine to Canada, tariff free.

The link below is very discouraging
http://www.lcbo.com/programs_services/private_ordering/content_priv_ordering.shtml

Most stores in the US that I have contacted won’t guarantee shipment to Canada.  However, friends have mailed me the odd bottle.
There are also a handful of agencies that can get special orders.  However, they are essentially licensed by the LCBO, so there is no savings.

Please take all the above with a grain of salt.  I am no expert.

(in reply to mcease)
Post #: 26
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 10:58:31 AM   
mcease

 

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It definately does not look worth while to get the LCBO to ship orders for you since they charge for freight, duty, taxes, etc.  You are right about spending 24 hrs in order to bring back alcohol to Canada. However, I go to the states quite often and I have declared a bottle here and there and they dont seem to mind if you only bring a bottle or two back.  I am lucky to have family in the States as well, but I am hesitant to ask them to use them as a shipping address becasue it seems like everyone wants to use them for that.  There has to be other ways - I am definately going to look into it.

(in reply to rbazinet)
Post #: 27
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 2:10:19 PM   
rbazinet

 

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From: Toronto, Ontario
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I make a few trips to the US per year.  Bringing back two bottles at a time seems somewhat futile, but it is nevertheless fun.

Be sure to drop a note in a thread if you find a special bottle at the LCBO. 

(in reply to mcease)
Post #: 28
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 2:47:18 PM   
mcease

 

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From: Toronto, Canada
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I will definately put up some tasting note and drop the name in a thread to get some other opinions if I try something good from the lcbo - I have been sick for the last little while so I dont want to try anything now because my pallet is gone.  I will keep you posted on my progress.

(in reply to rbazinet)
Post #: 29
RE: New to the fun world of wine - 10/3/2008 10:25:35 PM   
Chipomarc

 

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From: Fraser Valley, B.C. Canada
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Hi, this is my first post here.

I'm pretty much starting out expanding my wine experience as well.

After several attempts over the years, this time I'm following Kevin Zraly's
Windows On The World Wine Course book.

The most important change this time is the concept of getting to know the Grape.

I'm starting with white wine, and Zraly writes that to start off it's best to get to know
the three major grapes for white wine, Riesling, Sauvignon Blanc and Chardonnay.

Now I don't have that feeling of being overwhelmed, my focus for present time is to
compare Chardonnay from places like cool Burgundy/Chablis and Russian River Valley to warm
Australia and Napa, as well as getting familiar with oaked and unoaked.

For most of you in here this is probably like baby talk, but for someone who has
found getting started in learning wine a bit overwhelming, the idea of getting to know
the three main grapes is like being given a map.

I feel that doing it the other way, of concentrating on an area or region would be opening the
door to too many options and losing focus.

(in reply to mcease)
Post #: 30
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