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Passive Cellar Question - 2/10/2008 10:14:23 AM

calibabe

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Joined: 1/24/2008
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Temperature ranges from 54 degrees to 61 degrees. The temperature is basically 55 in the winter and 60 in the summer. Any cause for concern?

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RE: Passive Cellar Question - 2/10/2008 10:17:19 AM

jamscreator

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Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Indiana USA
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Depends who you believe. Unfortunately, unless you're going to shell out a substantial amount of money for a professional climate controlled cellar, you will have some temperature fluctuation. As long as you are only fluctuating a few degrees and staying under 60 degrees or so you should be fine. Unfortunately unless you compare a wine in your cellar to one in a professionally controlled cellar, you may never know if you've lost anything - cellaring time, taste, etc.. I'm sure you'll be fine.

_____________________________

Jeff Lawson

"Drink what you like, and like what you drink."
-Robert Mondavi

(in reply to calibabe)

Post #: 2

RE: Passive Cellar Question - 2/10/2008 12:07:51 PM

JohnNezlek

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Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester, Virginia
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For me, no. I have a passive cellar, and my top end is slightly higher than yours -- could get to 65 for a brief time during the hottest months. I have had absolutely no problems with spoilage, etc., and this includes some bottles that have been there for 20-25 years. A friend of mine actually refers to my basement as the magic pyramid. For long term storage, I would be concerned with humidity, light, and rapid changes in temperature. There appears to be some deabte about 50 vs. 55 as the best temperature, although from what I can gather, the primary difference between the two is how fast the wine will mature. In the introduction to Parker's Wine Buyer's Guide (2nd ed), Parker discusses some of these issue, and if I remember properly, the conditions you describe are well within in the bounds he (and others) he discusses. A little warm for a little while should do no harm.

(in reply to calibabe)

Post #: 3

RE: Passive Cellar Question - 2/10/2008 2:18:04 PM

Maestro

Posts: 521
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: online

Here's a recent CT debate about celar temperature:

http://www.cellartracker.com/forum/m_14861/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#14861

As for the passive cellar with summer to winter slow moving temperature variations, do not worry. You will be fine.

(in reply to JohnNezlek)

Post #: 4

RE: Passive Cellar Question - 2/10/2008 2:49:11 PM

knarf

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Joined: 12/21/2007
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That's about the range of my wine fridge.

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RE: Passive Cellar Question - 2/10/2008 7:13:44 PM

calibabe

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Joined: 1/24/2008
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Thanks all, now i have to determine the ideal range of humidity level. i believe 60% is a minimum. and thoughts?

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Post #: 6

RE: Passive Cellar Question - 2/11/2008 10:30:33 AM

fingers

Posts: 682
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
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50% - 70% is considered proper hydration

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RE: Passive Cellar Question - 4/10/2008 11:42:55 AM

gbm

Posts: 136
Joined: 3/12/2008
From: Connecticut
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Try this:

http://www.microdaq.com/lascar/el-usb-2.php

There are others that will monitor real time and remotely send the data to your computer, but that seems like overkill (and costs about an extra $100)..

(in reply to calibabe)

Post #: 8

RE: Passive Cellar Question - 4/10/2008 12:36:29 PM

cgrimes

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Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Massachusetts
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My cellar is also passive and has temperature fluctuations similar to JohnNezlek. I have never had any problems with spoiled wine. People have cellared wine passively for centuries without problems. Now this of course also depends on where you live. I'm in Mass where it does not stay excessively hot for long. Try getting a simple remote thermometer with a hygrometer to see what your average humidity is. Sometimes just an open pan of clean water can do the trick--just don't forget to change it.

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Post #: 9

RE: Passive Cellar Question - 7/4/2008 2:08:23 PM

gbm

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Joined: 3/12/2008
From: Connecticut
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So, here is an update.

I have been recording temperature and humidity in my cellar since mid-March and here are the results.

http://picasaweb.google.com/greg.marrinan/WINECELLARDATA02/photo?authkey=8LLaAiFYADo#5219237578448650642

I am in Connecticut, close to the LI Sound and close to the NY border. The space is unfinished and three sides are below ground level. Although we had a few days in the mid- to high 90s, there was no spike in the basement temps. On the other hand, there is clearly a slow and steady rise as summer kicks into gear. I will have to watch closely through September.

Humidity is less of a concern. The floor in the area where I store the wine is not cemented, just gravel. It fluctuates more than the temp, but the dew point (which I kept off the graph for simplicity) is always well below the temp and condensation has not yet been a problem.

Stay tuned for the Fall results....

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Post #: 10

RE: Passive Cellar Question - 7/4/2008 5:59:03 PM

Doryman

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Joined: 4/18/2008
From: Newfoundland
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Hi GBM:

A question for you - Is the temperature you have monitored the air temperature in your cellar or the temperature of a 750ml amount of liquid (ie water)? If you keep your temperature sensor in an ice cream tub of water, the variations will be much lower than in the air. As well, if you keep your bottles in insulated containers (ie styrofoam lined boxes) the variation will be greatly reduced.

I too have a passive cellar - concrete basement and am very interested in this as well.

Cheers!

Tom

(in reply to gbm)

Post #: 11

RE: Passive Cellar Question - 7/4/2008 7:58:42 PM

gbm

Posts: 136
Joined: 3/12/2008
From: Connecticut
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Glad I could interest someone!

The temperature sensor is measuring air. My bottles are stored on wooden shelves about 5 and a half feet tall and the sensor was around the four foot level. (I moved it to the highest level for the rest of the summer).

I have seen the sensors that measure water temperature or temperature inside a bottle. The graph is a bit simplistic in that it shows the overall trend better than actual day to day and hour to hour variations. The sensor records data every 30 minutes and the temperature is recorded to the nearest integer (no decimals, no half degrees). There were actually no changes greater than one degree per half hour and those spikes are (usually) at least two hour time periods. I would be curious to compare a temperature graph of the in-bottle and air temp sensors.

As for styrofoam boxes, I have had a couple of close calls balancing those and prefer not to push my luck. If I can't do it on wooden shelves, I would rather buy a cellar than clean up broken bottles.

I'll keep you updated.

(in reply to Doryman)

Post #: 12

RE: Passive Cellar Question - 7/5/2008 7:56:01 AM

maynardg

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Joined: 7/4/2008
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Try insulating the cellar from the rest of the house but not from the below grade wall. Buy this book: How and Why to Build a Wine Cellar - Richard Gold. This book is wonderful. It is also funny since the author has a great sense of humor. If you need a small cellar say 100 bottles, then try this. About 30 years ago, a friend who was a top physicist at Kodak showed me his home made passive cellar. I don't remember the exact dimensions but I believe is was about 4' high and about 8' wide coming up from the basement floor. I am guessing it was made from 4x8 plywood. Here is the operative observation. Below grade walls have a huge thermal mass on the external side of the basement wall. The deeper below grade the lower the temperature and the more stable the temperature year round. He built a wine rack against the wall and enclosed it (top, sides and front ) with either 1/2" or 3/4" plywood that was insulated with syrofoam. The front panel had 2 or 3 parts that you removed by undoing a latch I believe. It was ingenious. He had a 1/4" hole into which he inserted a thermometer and he kept a weekly temperature diary. The short term temperature never varied by more than 1/2 degree F as I recall. It would go up very slowly in the summer. He lived in Rochester NY and I believe he held a temp of around 56-57 degress. His rack was 1 bottle deep but there is no reason you could not make it 2 deep. It is not very pretty andit might be a pain to get the wine in and out but for long term cellaring it might be pretty good. Have to think about the humidity aspect though. If you have enough below grade wall you can just keep adding cellar space. Let the thermal mass below grade work for you. Spend the money on insulating the cellar from the house. And by the way, do not paint anything. Paint fumes are bad for wine.

(in reply to gbm)

Post #: 13