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Rating a wine on current attributes - 3/16/2008 1:19:38 PM

Blue Shorts

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From: Santa Cruz, California
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When you rate a wine, do you rate it based on it's current attributes, or do you rate it where you think it may end up at the peak of its aging? I ask this because of an experience that I had with a Philip Togni 2005 Cabernet sauvignon the other evening. Everything that I've heard and read about this wine is all raves.

I know that the wine needs some serious aging, but I didn't expect it to taste so bad now. I ended up giving it an 89.. and I probably should have given it an 84 or so. It was acidic and not very pleasurable. It was not even in the same ballpark as the Cliff Lede, Terra Valentine, or Altamura cabs.

I saw a review on CT where it was given a 95 and a possible 98 or more in the future. I would typically take that to mean that right now it's a 95, with great potential to get even better. Obviously, the poster most likely meant that it will end up around 95 or greater. even though it was pretty bad (relatively speaking... for an $85 Cabernet). The Parker 100pt scale gives points for aging ability. Why rate it high now if you only "suspect" it will be great. That's like looking at a calf and raving about how the steak will taste when the calf gets older and is butchered.

Any thoughts?

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RE: Rating a wine on current attributes - 3/16/2008 7:44:17 PM

fingers

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Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
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(This will likely turn into a good, long thread)

But, I know that I'm going off of current impression when I review. I would also suggest that it's best for CT'ers to do so. Reason 1: there are very few, if any, palates here (including my own) that I could trust to this level of judgement. It's hard enough to go with the so-called experts. Second, as we review the wine over time, we can actually watch as the scores rise (or fall) to reflect the current status of the wine. I know, there will be much more said about this, but we're off to a good start.

cheers

(in reply to Blue Shorts)

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RE: Rating a wine on current attributes - 3/16/2008 7:58:40 PM

ParkHill

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From: Denver, CO
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I was just wondering the same thing. In your case, you were concerned that the wine tasted bad, perhaps even harsh.

In my case, the wine in question tasted "too good", that is it was lush, rich, oaky, sweet, but to me, unsatisfying. I'm just not a fan of the fruit-bomb style, even though I had to admit this wine (2003 Vinedos de Paganos, Rioja) had a ton of flavor.

I'm aware that harsh, tannic monsters can age into something a lot more gentle.

How about the opposite. What happens to fruit-bombs. Do they become more rich and less over-the-top?

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RE: Rating a wine on current attributes - 3/17/2008 3:29:49 AM

nwinther

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Joined: 7/28/2006
From: Denmark
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Personally I try to rate a wine on it's current AND future potential. And I go to great lengths to underline a potential high future rating, especially if the current rating is on the low side.

However, most modern wines - even the one that can age - are usually drinkable now, with the focus on fruit and power, rather than elegance and complexity that will develop after years of cellaring.

Since I personally like both fruity and complex wines, the discrepancy is slight, and some fruity and acidic wines can just as easily loose with age as gain.

In reviews I finish with a "drink now or keep for X years" or "keep for at least..." and so on, to indicate that a wine is good now, or I suspect it will be.

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RE: Rating a wine on current attributes - 3/17/2008 3:54:13 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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From: Arabia
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I'm not capable of offering a judgement as to a wines future potential so instead try to rate wines that are ready to drink.
And leave the barrel sampling to Parker et.al.
My most current TN was for Pavie 2003, which I acknowledged could change from the 92 I gave (on current performance).

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RE: Rating a wine on current attributes - 3/17/2008 4:27:26 AM

Maestro

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Actually, I would be glad if the CT community rated the wine solely on its performance when consumed, and then used the tasing note to discuss the future potential. In other words, I'd love if we did not give 5 points for "future aging potential" in the score but just mentioned it in the notes.

So, I would prefer:

"Château Singing Like Terfel" (92 pts)
<<Nose of this and that, so-and-so on the palate. Drinking well now but it should evolve well and has potential to reach 95+ points in 5-10 years' time>>

to

"Château Leave Me Alone and Let me Sleep" (98 pts)
<<The nose is so tight we couldn't smell anything. On the palate it was a tannic monster, my tongue was so dry I still can't speak after three days. This surely will drink wonderfully between 2085 and 2120+>>

The reason why I think the former is preferrable to the latter in the CT community is that we all want to see how well a wine is drinking each time it is tasted, and the CT community is the only place one can do it.

Professional critics must rate a wine upon release and seldom revisit it, so they need to ascribe the 5 points to guess how well that thing would develop in the future, but in the CT community, a wine gets revisited all the time by different tasters, and I would want to know how it performed in absolute terms right at that date.

And we can just use the body of the note to exercise judgement on future potential.

< Message edited by Maestro -- 3/17/2008 4:30:01 AM >

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RE: Rating a wine on current attributes - 3/17/2008 5:54:28 AM

petitblanc

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Joined: 2/20/2007
From: Madison, WI
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Blueshorts,

Given my imperfect palate, I also am most comfortable scoring based on present attributes, and will often just add a comment with my own amateur prediction of future potential.

It's more problematic for younger wines, however, where it's more necessary to at least try to take ageability into account in scoring. Such wines are occasionally not particularly pleasant to drink when tasted young, but will almost certainly develop into great wines. So I could either score it very low based on its current unevolved profile, or go ahead and take a stab at projecting into the future. In these cases, I choose to do the latter, but with the caveat that I'm not an expert. Alternatively, some people very reasonably choose to omit a score entirely in such case, but my own preference is to have a numerical score for my own reference.

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pb

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RE: Rating a wine on current attributes - 3/17/2008 8:36:50 AM

Blue Shorts

Posts: 297
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Santa Cruz, California
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I understand your take on this, but I think it does a dis-service to many CT users. If you give a high score now, based upon the "hope" that the wine will improve, others may purchase the wine to consume in the near term and be very disappointed. Of course, you could be very explicit in your explanation. The problem is that your explanation may be overlooked.

I think that in many cases price determines the review of future possibilities. A less expensive wine will get a lower score in many cases, even though it is currently tasting better than a higher -priced one. And the higher priced one is given a higher score because it is generally assumed that it will get oh so much better (and it might not). Personally, I'd prefer that wineries hold wines until they are ready to drink. Sell the ones released too soon as futures. In other words... be honest. Wines that can stand the test of time will have very large drinking windows, and still will show improvement over time. As it currently stands, the wineries get to charge a high price for wines that in many cases don't taste very good right now.

I agree with others that a wine should be scored for it's current performance. Then you get to see improvement (or not) over time. A wine that is crafted for near term consumption can be just as good as one that takes 15 years to develop. In many cases it's preferable. I'd rather drink a great wine now then point to it in my cellar and boast of it's future prowess.

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RE: Rating a wine on current attributes - 3/17/2008 9:26:36 AM

petitblanc

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That's a valid point. I guess my hope, particularly in the case of a very expensive ageworthy wine, is that readers will look at both the note and the score before just buying and drinking. If they purchase a trophy '05 CdP based on score alone (be it from Parker, Suckling, or CT), then immediately open and find it unapproachable, they've hopefully learned a valuable if expensive lesson.

I may be a bit odd in that I LIKE to taste young wines, just like I LIKE to taste great wines without lengthy decanting. To me, this can be a wonderful way (perhaps the only way) to learn how wines change with age in the cellar and with air throughout an evening. Sometimes it's expensive infanticide, but it's almost always educational over time. And I don't want to sound falsely modest and say I am totally clueless as to how this '04 Pavie in my glass is going to age. If that was the case, and it often is when dealing with varietals and producers I don't know very well, I would definitely adhere to your principle and avoid assigning a numerical score.

I would hope others do the same, but I certainly read all tasting notes in their entirety, just to be sure. And I do occasionally find a CT review where the taster assigned a low score, only to find their tasting note describe a wine that actually sounds perfect for its age.

This problem also arises when I read a note by a reviewer who doesn't drink much of a particular varietal so finds it hard to rate what they're drinking. Most CT'ers in this instance seem to at least try to be helpful rather than just slamming the wine, providing a decent enough note for me to judge for myself, perhaps adding "I guess this just isn't my cup of tea" or "but I really don't know what this is supposed to taste like." I've done this myself.

You may be right, and in the above case, as in the case of a too-young wine, it might be best to just avoid a numerical score altogether. But I'm one of those who stubbornly like to assign a number, for my own reference, for simple comparison to my other notes, and perhaps to help others gauge my palate or lack thereof.

< Message edited by petitblanc -- 3/17/2008 9:36:22 AM >

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RE: Rating a wine on current attributes - 3/19/2008 6:58:53 PM

GalvezGuy

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From: Galveston, TX
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Great thread. I myself score on how the wine is showing when drank. I simply don't have the knowledge to know where that particular wine is going to go. There are some that were disjointed and came together, there were some that drank great young and fell apart (my biggest fear is that this will happen with 03 Bordeaux, so I am drinking a lot of them as soon as they wake up). I have had some wines that were wonderfully complex young absolutely fall apart with age (Several 2001 Napa Syrahs come to mind low 90s young and low to mid 80s now). I have also had some wines that I was not liking young come together very well with age ('99 Cali Cabs, most of them I would have scored in the mid 80's, now they are upper 80 lower 90 wines).

Like petitblanc, I like to taste young wines so I can understand how a particular profile will change with age. I am relatively new (5 years in) to this hobby and there is a world to learn. It is part of the allure of wine.

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