Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information

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Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information - 1/20/2006 12:57:18 PM

andrew

Posts: 1065
Joined: 2/20/2005
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Much of the data from IWC and nearly all from Winebid includes AP#s for the German wines. Data entry in Cellartracker has been inconsistent in this regard and matching the wines has been problematic in some cases. If you are looking for a valuation for a wine you know should be there (eg it was purchased via Winebid in the last 12 mos) or an IWC review, please consider the following:

1) Nearly all the Winebid data, especially for Auslese and above, contains the AP# in the lot information. If you purchased your wine via Winebid and don't see a valuation, it would be best to search CT for that particular wine and compare the available AP#'s to the one you have. The Winebid data is attached to only one specific AP# for any particular wine and vintage. You can then remove your holdings from the general entry and put them into the AP# specific one.

2) IWC reviews sometimes specify the AP# and sometimes do not. Where possible, we have mapped reviews w/o AP#s to both generic entries in CT and to AP-specific ones. We have some cases where several AP#s are mapped to the same generic entry as well. Where the review does specify an AP#, it has been mapped to that specific entry only even where creating this was necessary. It is advisable to check the AP# of your holdings, if you can, and enter it so that the IWC review will display with your wine.

3) In addition to AP# confusion especially as relates to the IWC reviews, there is increasing difficulties with German wine labelling practices which are rapidly degenerating when it comes to drier wines. What in the past may have been labelled 'halbtrocken' may now be called 'feinherb.' Some estates are omitting village names from the front label or omitting trocken/halbtrocken all together. And while a Grosses/Erstes Gewächs should be at least a Spätlese trocken, some producers are using a QbA designation. In short, we have had to abandon our desire for continuity in these wines and have opted to followed as literally as possible the labels. Thus what is essentially the same wine may migrate from no designation to halbtrocken to feinherb over several vintages. We have tried to reconcile CT holding to the reviews and data as best as possible.

If you have any questions or troubles matching your wines with the Winebid or IWC data, please let me know and I will be glad to assist.

Thanks,

A.

Post #: 1

RE: Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information - 5/20/2008 9:00:03 PM

John Trombley

Posts: 20
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline

Dear Andrew,

As Eric may tell you, I'm a font of useless knowledge about German wine, and have a fairly good idea about how it's (dis-)organized. I'm also happy to help anyone who is interested in such problems. Even CellarTracker administrators. Your summary of the problems of German nomenclature is not bad. At least as not as bad as the problem itself! (smile)

I'm a sometime user of CellarTracker, but find myself going to it more and more, lately, and I'm trying to get my extensive series of tasting notes into it. Actually, they're more like Wiki articles, but not quite.

By the way, one interesting thing is that the wines of Ludwig Neumayer in Austria are not in Kremstal as CellarTracker has it. Before 1995 they were part of the Donauland, but the region is now (because they are in the valley of the Traisen river) called the Traisental, and also in the village of Traisen, too. Do you need some links on this? I could supply them. Don't worry--WineBid has a bottle at auction currently and has it listed as a German Nahe wine (probably because there's a Traisen a.d. Nahe--the home, of course, of Dr. Crusius!) This means that probably you have a whole bunch of wines that have the wrong appellations in Austria, because there's been tons of changes there, too. If you want to leave it pure region Niederosterreich, that's fine, but you don't want to call this a Wachau or a Kremstal, because it really ain't, and never was, even with that confusing vom Stein. I haven't taken a gaze at the situation in Austria as a whole.

By the way, as I'm sure you know, at the level of Qualitätswein/Prädikatswein in Germany, there are several levels of concentric structures. The Anbaugebeit (there used to be 13 of them, but there are a couple more now)--these are the regions, like Mosel (what you're calling Mosel-Saar-Ruwer). Then there is the Bereich, such as the Bereich Saar or the Bereich Ruwer or the Bereich Bernkastel or the Bereich Johannisberg. (You see why Mosel-Saar-Ruwer isn't a good idea anymore, but I understand that there isn't a clean fix for this one!) Each Bereich is broken up into several Großlagen (regional vineyards, too darn regional in my book, for the most part), and the Großlagen are made up of Einzellagen, which are really individual vineyard sites. (There are some small areas that are Großlagen-free and some that are Einzellagen-free, however, just to keep things interesting). However, the Einzellagen we have today are an awful amalgamation of what they were circa 35 years ago when the laws changed for the worse, and so there's a temptation to bottle individual parcellen (parcels) in the Einzellage and put that on the label, as van Volxem in the Saar and Vollenweider in the Mosel (-Saar-Ruwer) do. However, this isn't legal, exactly, unless you can get it under the radar by claiming it's a brand name. That won't work if the name was ever registered before as an Eingetragene Marke (yes, a Trademark), and that can go back a long way, and who knows if it is or not? Roman N. at v. Volxem got his hand slapped for using Pergentsknopp on a parcel-selected Scharzhofberger, and has now reverted to bottling the same stuff as a Scharzhofberger 'P'. He has no problem doing the same thing in the Braunfels with the Vols parcel, and apparently no one has gotten after Vollenweider yet. And then there's the sort of village-vineyard amalgamation called the Ortsteil. And what's a Felsentürmchen, anyway?

Where was I going with this? Well, you see you need a few extra levels if you're going to accomodate all the German wines that you're going to run into. I've knocked heads several times with your current system, as you may have noticed.

And you don't want to forget these stylistic nomenclatures, used more or less in an effort to clarify the situation, but of course muddied it up: classic, selection, hochgewachs. And they really haven't got done arguing yet over whether the Erste Lage wines in certain areas can be fruity-sweet. Yes, they have to be super-Spätlesen. But is this vineyard designation movement a description of quality, or a designation of geography? I haven't figured that one out yet. If it's sort of like Burgundy it's geographic, but if it's sort of like Alsace it's not quite so geographic, if you get my drift.

And then there's the Fudernummer, the Fassnummer, and the Versteigerungsweine! And we're not getting into stars, bars, and the fearful Lange Goldkapsule! or the dreaded AP nummer!

Then you have Tafelweine (Table Wines), and a sort of hybrid called Landwein, that can have some general designation of region and a vintage, as the Tafelweine cannot. They must just have a fantasy or maker's name that doesn't hint at a region. And, to make things fun, the regional designations are different between the Landweine and the Qualitäts/Prädikatweine.

And, if you go back before 1983, you have a different concept of Eiswein--it wasn't a Prädikat in itself, so it had to be a Kabinett Eiswein or an Auslese Eiswein or something like that. And let's not go back before 1971, with its Cabinets, its Naturreine ('natural wine'), its Weinachtsweine and Dreikönigsweine and Feuerweine and Strohweine and Jungfernweine and Allerheiligensweine, and three or four or five different designations for what we now call Beerenauslesen and Trockenbeerenauslesen and who knows what else?

whhoooeeee! now you see what happened to my wits! I hope no one has told you that there's actually an Alsatian wine that's made in a cellar across the Rhein in the Anbaugebeit Baden, yes, Germany, and what're you going to do with THOSE?

< Message edited by John Trombley -- 5/20/2008 9:42:04 PM >

_____________________________

A votre santé,
John Trombley

(in reply to andrew)

Post #: 2

RE: Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information - 6/18/2008 3:22:56 PM

John Trombley

Posts: 20
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline

Dear Andrew,

Given all the above discussion, has CellarTracker decided to make the entry of AP numbers a standardized procedure? Where do we want this information to be recorded? I've been putting it in several different places, and I'm sure this will cause confusion.

Actually using the AP number can CAUSE confusion rather than reduce it, because using it might imply that there is more than one bottling, but this may not be the case. Hmmmm...

_____________________________

A votre santé,
John Trombley

(in reply to John Trombley)

Post #: 3

RE: Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information - 6/18/2008 3:26:00 PM

Eric

Posts: 5590
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

Still no special field. When we do add AP# to the database we usually do it by appending something like #2 to the designation, e.g. "Auslese #2". We generally only try to add them (or let people add them) when there are known ambiguities with the producer, e.g. Willi Schaefer. But all in all, it's a bit of a confusing mess...

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Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

(in reply to John Trombley)

Post #: 4

RE: Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information - 6/19/2008 7:59:46 AM

John Trombley

Posts: 20
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline

My eventual suggestion would be that certain wines require certain information fields and they should automatically pop up when an attempt is made to enter a relevant wine. Say when a Maximin Gruenhaus wine is chosen a 'Fuder Number' field might appear if relevant.

A list of problems for German wines include Prädikats, vineyard classification with special qualities (grosses Gewachs, etc),  residual sugar notations, ("Trocken,", 'Fineherb'); marketing tools like 'Hochgewachs, 'Classic', 'Select'; special capsule colors lengths, special stars, special AP numbers, special fuders or 'stuck' numbers, special 'parzellen', a special trademark (like 'Felsenturmchen', which has actually no other exact parallel--it's just a corner of a vineyard that Doennhoff liked to make sweet Spaetlesen from--and even closure choices when available; plus historical designators like 'Jungfernwein', 'Weinachstswein', 'Ausbruch' and other obsolete ripeness/technical words like that. Also there are auction bottling problems. Did you know that there is a fourth specialized auction sale tool going on in the Mosel right now, called the 'Klitzenkleiner Ring Versteigerung'? It's met for two or three annual sales already, and I tried to get to it when I was in Germany last September, but it conflicted with the Nahe/Ahr auction.

There are, of course, other special bottlings by special designations and so forth that occur in other countries. Italy and France also abound with these (Look at all the special bottlings of Dr. Parce Banyuls! And what possibilities exist for confusion between similar producer names all over Europe.) The problem is that each and every one of these poses a possible problem of the identity of a given bottling.  Who is going to be responsible to see that there is no identity confusion in the database?   See my question about van Volxem, where this may have occurred already with at least one of th 2005 and later bottlings. This would require good connections with the industry and makers to sort out. The historical problems are immense--think of Madiera, Port, and Sherry and all those enormously specialized bottlings. You would do well to be recruiting experts, other than your average Joe Collector, to help keep this straight as possible.

Right now special designations are multiplying and the problems are going to get more involved rather than less, despite all efforts to the contrary to simplify things. The main problem seems to be keeping all this detail from sinking the system and making it unusable. The reason that commercial auction catalogues are so problematic becomes very clear.

Pictures of bottles and labels are nice, but there is not enough detail to read all the fine print nor room for including back and front labels and neck labels/capsules (a separate field for 'back' labels is an idea!).

< Message edited by John Trombley -- 6/19/2008 8:07:02 AM >

_____________________________

A votre santé,
John Trombley

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 5

RE: Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information - 6/21/2008 8:01:57 AM

Rieslingfan

Posts: 22
Joined: 12/17/2004
Status: offline

As another German wine specialist, I have to say that I feel the AP number issue is vastly overblown in its importance. While certain prducers (e.g. Grunhaus) use cask number to specifically differentiate particular cuvees that must be preserved, others (e.g. J. J. Prum) will tell you (as Katharina Prum said to me) that they find the obsessive differentiation of AP numbers of identical wines (when the capsule type is the same) to be a waste of time at best and silly at worst.

I would never advocate adding extra fields to the CellarTracker database for AP numbers. There's already enough confusion regarding separate bottlings, and even with the numbers the vast majority of folks still cannot tell them apart despite the decade+ efforts of John and myself (among others) to do the education on AP numbers, casules, stars, etc.

If there is no specific delineation of cuvees (e.g. casule type, stars, parcel names) I would actually strip the AP number info out of CellarTracker.

(in reply to John Trombley)

Post #: 6

RE: Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information - 6/23/2008 2:20:27 PM

John Trombley

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Joined: 5/20/2008
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Thanks for the post, and a voice of common sense, Rieslingfan.

I would agree with you, and Katharina, that this issue is not as important for Joh. Jos. Prüm wines as it is for certain selected others. I believe her comment was intended to apply only to the wines made by her house, and not as a general comment. For instance, the Auslesen made by Fritz Haag would be a powerful counterexample.

An analogous problem to the AP number is the 'Goldkapsel' issue, where the gold capsule doesn't represent a special bottling, but merely a choice of color on the part of the manufacturer. Gold does look nice on a bottle, doesn't it?

I've been very happy to see that, for instance, Dönnhoff's bottlings of the Oberhäuser Brücke and the Niederhäuser Hermannshöhle sweet wines, which are bottled by him in gold simply to show that they are rich, sweet wines, and don't represent special bottlings, are not listed as 'Goldkaps' in Cellar Tracker.

There is only one important identiy issue with the Prüm wines that often dogs, me, and that is my inability to tell a Goldcap from a Lange Goldkap (Long Gold Capsule), when the bottle in question is not sitting next to an example of the other variety. Since the release of the1983 vintage I haven't been able to afford having both varieties in my cellar, and so I have a problem. I believe that Katharina should actually record the 'GK' and the 'LGK' on the label or capsule, but I know if she proposes to do so she'll have a fight on her hands with the Agriculture Ministry.

I have set up more than one blind tasting to find out whether, for example, Wehlener Sonnenuhr white-capped Auslesen from a given Joh. Jos. Prüm vintage with different AP numbers can be reliably distinguished, and my experience is that with my palate it can't be done. Perhaps some one else can do it, but with my relatively poor palate equipment, I simply can't. So as far as that goes, Katharina is right.

However, there are still other problems. How is one to know that a particular bottle doesn't represent a Versteigerungswein (auction wine)? Several of Dönnhoff's AP numbers from these, and other, vineyards, are Auction Wines. If a person tells you to look for the little round white auction labels, they are not always present, and any wines offered at auction that are not sold at such are allowed by VDP regulation to be offered on the open market at the same price, and historically many of these did not have the auction stickers on them. The use or nonuse of these stickers in this situation is, or at least was, a matter of some ambiguity.

The fault here lies with the Agriculture Ministry. They have set up a system of data collection and made absolutely no provision for the consumer to get this information. If it was easily available, such as through a website, none of these problems would exist. Why should CellarTracker do the work of the German Government for them? The Government gets the registration fees for the AP numbers, not CellarTracker. Rieslingfan (whose identity I can easily guess) and I have done a lot of free work for them already. Do we know anyone in the Agriculture Ministry who can be persuaded to serve the public interest here? Unlikely.

Until every single release of German wine under an AP number, or the analogous number used for Sekt, clearly identifies the nature of its bottling in an easily accessible, free, and public way, this confusion will continue to multiply. Every other effort at improving the marketing of German wine has had the opposite effect, and this problem will continue to exacerbate until the German Government allows effective consumer voice, even voice from overseas, on its policy panels. This is only one small issue of many that needs to be addressed urgently.

< Message edited by John Trombley -- 6/23/2008 2:33:56 PM >

_____________________________

A votre santé,
John Trombley

(in reply to Rieslingfan)

Post #: 7

RE: Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information - 6/24/2008 4:48:11 AM

Rieslingfan

Posts: 22
Joined: 12/17/2004
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John,

I do agree that producers such as Haag make AP numbers necessary, but they are more the exception than the rule, so I would still oppose a separate field.

As for the entire issue of changing the law & potentially fixing the issues that cause so much confusion; it will of course never happen. Think of all the publicity that would be lost if there were no more discussions about AP numbers, auction wines, capsules, stars and pretty little neck labels. In a way it's a brilliant marketing strategy.

(in reply to John Trombley)

Post #: 8

RE: Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information - 6/24/2008 2:07:58 PM

John Trombley

Posts: 20
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline

Dear D.,

Sorry. Perhaps the unneeded complexity of my reply made my own position hard to discern. I agree with you at this point about the counterproductiveness of an AP field.

There are many more producers than just Haag that need the clarification of an AP number, of course, but our instructions should standardize its position when the information is needed. I've seen it in more than one field. Perhaps this has already been taken care of; I haven't had time to check.

I disagree that there is nothing more to be done about the issues now negatively affecting consumers, however. The first move would be to find a strong consumer voice to 'speak back' to the German government. Perhaps the German Wine Society should be that voice, or someone affiliated with it. Unfortunately, I have never had the time or opportunity to become active with the GWS, but I would support such an effort.

I find nothing charming or cute about the current situation. It leads to a de-rationalization of the market, and an inefficient market hurts both supplier and consumer, I think an economist would contend. This means that you and I are buying wines that are of less quality than they could possess at prices that are higher than they should be. The producer is hurt in many ways, but let's not go there right now.

_____________________________

A votre santé,
John Trombley

(in reply to Rieslingfan)

Post #: 9

RE: Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information - 6/25/2008 10:02:19 AM

Rieslingfan

Posts: 22
Joined: 12/17/2004
Status: offline

My good friend John,

Perhaps it is because of our shared passion regarding German wine that we sometimes elaborately construct (in your case) or quickly blurt out (in my case) complex explanations (in your case) or overly generalized answers (in my case), all the while kind of working at cross purposes.

I agree that the current situation is a problem, but I just don't see it changing. I would love the German Wine Information Bureau to take up the torch and ask some of us dedicated proponents what we think could be done to improve the situation and take htat back to the various and sundry VDP organizations. I think it could do a lot of good if there was actually interest in our feedback. I'm just not sure there is at this point.

I don't have a lot of time for detailed discussion at the moment (perhaps this weekend), but I must say I do enjoy these conversations.

David

(in reply to John Trombley)

Post #: 10

RE: Regarding AP#'s and Winebid/IWC information - 6/26/2008 9:29:16 AM

John Trombley

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Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline

Dear David,

I enjoy our back-and-forth greatly as well, and we don't, of course, need to agree on everything for the discussion to be beneficial to us, and to others. Perhaps I'll post something like this on a more widely-viewed forum and see what happens.

_____________________________

A votre santé,
John Trombley

(in reply to Rieslingfan)

Post #: 11