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RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/26/2008 10:34:58 PM   
JMillah

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 2/26/2008
Status: offline 		I wouldn't kick myself.  I may be the only here who thinks the 05 vintage is overhyped by the pundits.  I tasted through 50-75 '05's at the UGC tasting in January.  I was very disappointed.  I found many of the right bank wines to be far too ripe for my taste.  I don't know if it is because of the heat, or the winemakers bowing to certain wine journalists, but if I had tasted these wines blind, I would have thought they were from CA.  Not that there is anything wrong with CA wines, but I can get those here.  The left bank had some very nice wines but not worth the money.  Admittedly, I tend to favor elegance and aromatics in my bordeaux over big fruit.  So I guess it just depends on what you like. I just feel the need to play devil's advocate ;^) 

If you want to buy 05's for an investment, then I agree with MBannon..stick to big names and hold them for 10-15 years.  If you want to enjoy them, try the 99's, 01's, and '04's first.  Personally, I like them better and for a fraction of the price.

(in reply to jamscreator)
Post #: 31
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/27/2008 6:09:41 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		Hope you're wrong JM.

If you're not I guess I sell my 05's and savour my bigger collection of 2000's - got a view on them?



< Message edited by Colonel Lawrence -- 2/27/2008 6:11:26 AM >

(in reply to JMillah)
Post #: 32
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/27/2008 12:27:07 PM   
JMillah

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 2/26/2008
Status: offline 		Don't sell your 05's yet!  Uncork one and tell me what you think.  I'm not right or wrong, just stating my opinion based on my tastes. 

I love the 2000's.  To me, they have good ripeness while still maintaining balance.  I bought the 2000 Lynch-Bages on futures and it may be the best wine purchase I have ever made.

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 33
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/27/2008 3:44:31 PM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		to bad the  2000 Lynch-Bages is just as expensive as the 05's now.

(in reply to JMillah)
Post #: 34
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/27/2008 4:12:29 PM   
JMillah

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 2/26/2008
Status: offline 		I know, it is pricey, but at least the 2000 is just about ready to drink.  Much as I love this wine, I don't think I would pay the current price for it.  I paid about $70/btl for it and now its about $150.  Some might look at this and think this was a great investment, but consider this:

1) If you put $70 in a mutual fund for seven years and averaged 12% annually, you would make as much.
2) I have had to store the wine for six years.
3) Although retail value is $150, it is unlikely someone would buy it from me for that price, when they can go to a reputable retailer instead.

My advice, apes, is to go slowly into your Bordeaux investigation.  Go to some Bordeaux tastings if you can or form a tasting group with friends.  That way you can taste more wines for the same amount of money and learn what you like and don't like.  As I said, I tasted probably 60 or so wines at the UGC tasting and the ticket only cost me $85...or one bottle of wine.

(in reply to apes)
Post #: 35
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/27/2008 6:17:20 PM   
apes

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 1/29/2008
From: CT
Status: offline 		I'll give you $125, only joking, kind of. well your advice is well taken, I'm going slow, tastings would be great. I just purchased a few more Bordeaux.
1999 Gracia
2001 La Confession
2004 Leoville Barton  Missed out on the 05 leoville

Getting my wine cellar soon, look forward filling it and drinking it.
Next venture inti Italy.


(in reply to JMillah)
Post #: 36
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/28/2008 6:03:30 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		Thought I'd make you jealous - have assembled every Leoville Barton  from  2000 through 2006,
and La Reserve for 2000, 2001 and 2004 (thought doing a comparison would be fun).
As you can see it's one of my all time fav's and the Barton's seem pretty decent, perhaps the only quality Chateau that doesn't gouge the maximum price every year.
http://www.thewinedoctor.com/tastingsprofile/leovillebarton.shtml


_____________________________

First they came for ....................

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Post #: 37
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/28/2008 4:36:57 PM   
jamscreator

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Indiana USA
Status: offline 		I guess I'm doing it all wrong.  I am doing something unusual with my wine collection.  I'm drinking it!!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: JMillah

I know, it is pricey, but at least the 2000 is just about ready to drink.  Much as I love this wine, I don't think I would pay the current price for it.  I paid about $70/btl for it and now its about $150.  Some might look at this and think this was a great investment, but consider this:

1) If you put $70 in a mutual fund for seven years and averaged 12% annually, you would make as much.
2) I have had to store the wine for six years.
3) Although retail value is $150, it is unlikely someone would buy it from me for that price, when they can go to a reputable retailer instead.

My advice, apes, is to go slowly into your Bordeaux investigation.  Go to some Bordeaux tastings if you can or form a tasting group with friends.  That way you can taste more wines for the same amount of money and learn what you like and don't like.  As I said, I tasted probably 60 or so wines at the UGC tasting and the ticket only cost me $85...or one bottle of wine.


_____________________________

Jeff Lawson

"Drink what you like, and like what you drink."
-Robert Mondavi

(in reply to JMillah)
Post #: 38
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/28/2008 4:55:53 PM   
JMillah

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 2/26/2008
Status: offline 		Tru dat!

quote:

ORIGINAL: jamscreator

I guess I'm doing it all wrong.  I am doing something unusual with my wine collection.  I'm drinking it!!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: JMillah

I know, it is pricey, but at least the 2000 is just about ready to drink.  Much as I love this wine, I don't think I would pay the current price for it.  I paid about $70/btl for it and now its about $150.  Some might look at this and think this was a great investment, but consider this:

1) If you put $70 in a mutual fund for seven years and averaged 12% annually, you would make as much.
2) I have had to store the wine for six years.
3) Although retail value is $150, it is unlikely someone would buy it from me for that price, when they can go to a reputable retailer instead.

My advice, apes, is to go slowly into your Bordeaux investigation.  Go to some Bordeaux tastings if you can or form a tasting group with friends.  That way you can taste more wines for the same amount of money and learn what you like and don't like.  As I said, I tasted probably 60 or so wines at the UGC tasting and the ticket only cost me $85...or one bottle of wine.


(in reply to jamscreator)
Post #: 39
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 2/29/2008 9:17:32 AM   
GalvezGuy

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: Galveston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

Thought I'd make you jealous - have assembled every Leoville Barton  from  2000 through 2006,
and La Reserve for 2000, 2001 and 2004 (thought doing a comparison would be fun).
As you can see it's one of my all time fav's and the Barton's seem pretty decent, perhaps the only quality Chateau that doesn't gouge the maximum price every year.
http://www.thewinedoctor.com/tastingsprofile/leovillebarton.shtml



I have to echo that.  I bought 2003 on future at en primeur pricing and I got a STEAL at $75.  The 2004 was a good bargain too.  I am out of my 2000 and 2001, just could not leave them alone until they were mature (my collection was much smaller then).

_____________________________

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(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 40
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/5/2008 9:59:09 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		This might be interesting:
2005 Château Pedesclaux
 
Tasted Blind
Farr, 2/29/2008
Decanter Magazine held a comprehensive 2005 Bordeaux Classed Growth blind tasting. All the major Chateaux were included in the tasting with samples purchased on the market of those wines whose owners did not wish to participate.
Decanter Magazine tastings are scrupulously honest with all wines tasted strictly blind in random order. Tasters are given no information other than the subject of the tasting. The identities of the wines are not revealed until all notes and scores have been handed in to the organisers. The 2005 tasting panel was comprised of Steven Spurrier, Sebastian Payne MW, Richard Bampfield MW, Hugo Rose MW and Stephen Browett of Farr Vintners. 
This was a sensational blind tasting and no fewer that 25 wines will be given a coveted "Decanter Award" - apparently the previous record for any tasting that they have ever organised is 13 awards!
Only three wines scored 18/20 or more from all 5 jurors. These were all from Pauillac - Mouton Rothschild, Pichon Baron and Pedesclaux. Yes, you read that right - the rarely seen little Pauillac fifth growth outscored most of the super-star names! There were gasps in the room when the results were revealed and a second bottle tasted with lunch was of the same sensational quality. When one considers that Chateau Pedesclaux is priced at less than the second wines of many of the competition here, this was a truly remarkable result. Maybe some of the big names have gone into a "dumb" stage since bottling last Summer but this is nevertheless a fantastic achievement by Pedesclaux, which is clearly the bargain of the vintage.

"A deep red/black colour with a little fade at the rim. On the nose it is strong and serious with intense cassis and black olive aromas. Powerful and strapping with impressive concentration of black fruit. Rich and sweet, so much so that the tannins are more than matched by the considerable fruit. Dense and finely balanced. Big, yet no hard edges and this can be drunk early or kept for 10 years +."
18.5/20, Stephen Browett, Farr Vintners 

(in reply to GalvezGuy)
Post #: 41
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/5/2008 10:06:00 AM   
cgrimes

 

Posts: 895
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		I don't think that I have ever even seen that available in the States.  Will be going to London in April and will look around.  Do you recommend any shops there?

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 42
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/5/2008 3:21:46 PM   
fingers

 

Posts: 682
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline 		Just pre-ordered a case from a local wine merchant here in Orange County so it is available in US.

(in reply to cgrimes)
Post #: 43
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/5/2008 11:35:28 PM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cgrimes

I don't think that I have ever even seen that available in the States.  Will be going to London in April and will look around.  Do you recommend any shops there?



There's a thread around on best shops in London/UK.
Berry Bros. in St. James get's lot's of plaudits although I find it expensive.
Suggest you try their  web site first http://www.bbr.com/ and also compare with Farr which is mainly wholesale/internet - http://www.farrvintners.com/index.php 
L.

_____________________________

First they came for ....................

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Post #: 44
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/5/2008 11:38:37 PM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

Just pre-ordered a case from a local wine merchant here in Orange County so it is available in US.


Did you see the blind tasting results, or are you just a great judge of wine yourself?
Good decision either way, I just got the last two cases from my dealer (he'd just sold close to 1000 cases!).


_____________________________

First they came for ....................

(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 45
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/6/2008 3:31:21 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 435
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

This might be interesting:
2005 Château Pedesclaux
 



Wouldn't you know it, I never heard of this Chateau and now we have the 2004 available in Finland (as of yesterday). Quite a coincidence! At 30 euros I shall certainly check it out, even if it is of a lesser vintage.

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 46
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/6/2008 5:04:20 AM   
mill village

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 3/6/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

2005 Château Pedesclaux


Niklas,
a word of caution. There must be something positively awkward with the 2005 vintage. Otherwise this wine has got quite bad ratings. E.g. the 2004 vintage you refer to was rated as 2/5 by Decanter and earlier vintages receive quite low scores from WS. 30 euros for a bottle of 2004 is not necessarily worth the fun.


_____________________________

Mill Village

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 47
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/6/2008 11:02:54 PM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 435
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: online 		Thanks for the warning! I tried to find out more about said chateau, but couldn't really find any relevant info on the web (I don't subscribe to the obvious sites like Decanter, WA, WS etc). Several people have the wine on CT, but apparently nobody has opened the 2004. Anyway, this is kind of straying from the thread here, so I'll stop for the moment!

(in reply to mill village)
Post #: 48
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/7/2008 3:14:51 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		More stuff from Farr (following the Chateau Pedesclaux 2005 shocker) which lends credence to much that has been said before - buy the cheaper Chateaux  (remember however - caveat emptor -  that they want to sell these wines):

Sorry it didn't copy too well and there is no web link to give you (it was in an email).






Bordeaux 2005 - More bargain buys from this sensational vintage








Pedesclaux 2005, which has now sold out, was one of our most over-subscribed offers ever. We are delighted to have secured another parcel of a 2005 Bordeaux classed growth chateau...  



Following last Friday 's comprehensive 2005 Bordeaux tasting at Decanter Magazine, we have been tasting further samples from this amazing vintage and can now offer some more great deals on classed growths and second labels.  What has really struck us about 2005 is that this is a year in which EVERYTHING is good. From Cru Bourgeois to First Growth this is just a fantastic vintage and whilst the best are awesome, the difference in quality between the wines at £20 and £1000 is not as great as usual. 



At the Decanter Magazine tasting perhaps the biggest surprise after the performance of Pedesclaux (the wine no one had ever heard of 2 days ago), was the fantastic achievement of Chateau Lynch Moussas. This Fifth Growth Cru Classé has, for a long time, lived in the shadow of neighbours Lynch Bages and Grand Puy Lacoste but in this 2005 blind tasting it performed better than it ever has before. For the full results of the tasting we will have to wait for a future edition of Decanter Magazine (Subscribe here). But, what we can reveal is that this is one of the 25 wines will be given a coveted "Decanter Award". For a Pauillac classed growth, this is a real bargain at just over £200 per case.



Jancis Robinson was not at this tasting but when she last reviewed Lynch Moussas 2005 she called it the best Lynch Moussas that she had ever tasted and rated it 17.5/20.



We would also like to recommend 2 delicious and forward second labels that we have tasted recently from the wonderful 2005 vintage. In our view (and also that of proprietor Olivier Bernard) Domaine de Chevalier 2005 is    the greatest wine made at this Estate for over 40 years and the second wine, L'Esprit de Chevalier,  is lovely too. There is also no doubt that Smith Haut Lafitte made a fabulous 2005 (Parker rating 93/95+) and their second wine Les Hauts de Smith is cut from the same cloth although it is already approachable.





















        














Lynch Moussas









Esprit de Chevalier









Les Hauts de Smith




























                 Other Bargain Wines














Lalande Borie









Aiguilhe









Cantemerle











 


 





Tasting notes



Lynch Moussas 2005

"A deep black/red colour with only a little fade at the rim. A fragrant, quite exotic nose with red fruit and wood smoke. Really lovely and truly ripe  Cabernet Sauvignon on the palate with some sweet red cherries and a creamy texture. Not a massive wine and relatively forward but it has a hauntingly smoky, long and lingering finish. A lovely glass of Bordeaux that will continue to develop over the next 10 years" 

Stephen Browett, Decanter Magazine blind tasting, 29/2/08



Hauts de Smith 2005

"A rich sweet nose of dusty blackcurrants and dark berry fruits. This is already showing some classic Graves character with earthy/mineral qualities overlayed with layers of ripe seductive fruit and a quite muscular tannic structure. A spicy grip in the finish shows this wine has plenty of class and offers superb value for a second wine of a leading Bordeaux Chateau."

Farr Vintners, March 2008

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 49
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/7/2008 1:35:15 PM   
fingers

 

Posts: 682
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline 		Almost an impulse.  First, I read your link about the blind tasting and within minutes there was an email from 1 of my 3 favorite local wine shops that they were taking orders.  $38usd

So, to me, that meant the stars were in alignment.

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 50
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/31/2008 9:00:14 PM   
theusualsuspect

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		Setting aside the firsrt growths or 95+ point Parker wines (and they don't always hold their futures price), what is missing from this thread is the reality, for example, that tons of 2003 Bordeaux were ultimately put on the shelf or on the web at lower prices than the futures price. So too with the 2004 Bordeaux. Indeed, if you shop around even today, you can find 2003 Bordeaux on the net for less than the futures price. It used to be that buying Bordeaux futures was a big and certain money saver. If you didn't buy them as futures, you missed the deal. Not any more. I decided to buy 2003 Bordeaux after they arrived. When I did a web search of the futures prices, turns out I bought them cheaper - across the board. My guess is that you may see a repeat of this with many 2005 Bordeaux. Years ago, if you didn't buy them as futures, they went on the shelf when they arrived at about a 25% or more mark up. Not any more. Today in my view, waiting to taste and decide what you really like will by and large cost you much less than it would years ago. So don't necessarily assume that you have missed the best opportunity on many highly regarded 2005 Bordeaux.

(in reply to apes)
Post #: 51
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/31/2008 9:08:15 PM   
theusualsuspect

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		I should add by the way that I live in the U.S. For whatever reason, my guess is that in the U.K. - been there many times, visited lots of wine shops - that the retail price for Bordeaux by and large rarely falls below the futures prices, or certainly not to the extent it does in the U.S.

(in reply to theusualsuspect)
Post #: 52
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 3/31/2008 11:20:19 PM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		That's not my experience with 2003.
Bought 20 Chateaux (inc. Mouton, Margaux and Haut Brion of the 1st's) and with the single exception of Cos Labory they are all  up on opening price, many substantially (I use CT's current pricing).  In fact on average my 2003's are 41.6% above what I paid (all taxes etc included).
Leoville's Barton and Poyferre the best performers - over +100% appreciation - thanks to RP I think.
Now for 2004 onwards I might agree with you.


_____________________________

First they came for ....................

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Post #: 53
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 4/1/2008 5:06:14 AM   
cgrimes

 

Posts: 895
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, I doubt this will be true for 2005.  I have already seen simpler wines like Pipeau routinely sold for twice what I paid for them en primeur.  Most of my bigger wines from '05 are not yet out on the shelf so I cannot yet asses those.  The combination of hype and currency will surely keep the prices high.  Now '04 and '06 may be a different story...

(in reply to theusualsuspect)
Post #: 54
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 4/1/2008 7:45:10 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		I have found very little appreciation with 2005's, although I missed out on the 1st's except Mouton.
I did very well 2000-2003 but after that pretty modest growth.
I suspect currency again is distorting things as I convert my Sterling purchases to $'s for CT and recently I'm using close to 2:1, whereas back a little it was 1.75:1.   This makes my purchases cost nearly 15% more in $ terms. and hence wipes out the appreciation you may be seeing.  I fear the weak dollar will really hit you for 2007.


_____________________________

First they came for ....................

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Post #: 55
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 4/1/2008 8:03:19 AM   
cgrimes

 

Posts: 895
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		I may end up buying very little '07 Bordeaux and concentrate on buying some underpriced Bordeaux/CA Cab from the 90's.  I have been looking into some companies who buy up cellars (Benchmark Wine Group).  Good selection of older Bordeaux and prices better than at auction.  Can't say I've bought anything yet but I am looking.  My problem is that I have precious little mature Bordeaux to drink.  I have tried a couple bottles of the '00 vintage and its still too tight to really enjoy.  I know you are a Bordeaux drinker but if you age CA cabs 10 yrs they have many more characteristics of a good Bordeaux.  If you are interested I'd be happy to direct you to a few good agers which are not so overpriced.

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 56
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 4/1/2008 9:00:36 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		I'm like you, only 14% older than 2000.
I tend to just buy from supermarkets my todays drinking, anticipating the future!
Very happy to receive all advice, I have Bordeaux pretty well sewn up, but all else I do adhoc.
Cheers,
L.


PS  I think I've said I may just try and pick up a few 1st's and some fav's in 2007, but certainly won't be buying heavily, unless the Bordelais crash their prices (which they won't).
Looking at some nice 2004 Aussie Shiraz right now (95/6 WA and half the price of equivalent Bordeaux)

_____________________________

First they came for ....................

(in reply to cgrimes)
Post #: 57
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 4/1/2008 9:14:30 AM   
cgrimes

 

Posts: 895
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		I like the more restrained CA cabs such as Dominus, Mondavi Private Reserve, Beringer Private Reserve, Chateau St. Jean Cinq Cepages, Ch. Montelena.  They don't get the reviews other CA wines do not because they are not good but because they are not overextracted fruit bombs.  They are also the most collectable.  My favorite is Dominus--a must try for any Bordeaux drinker.

I have also started dabbling in the French-So. American partnerships which seem to be producing good wine these days.  I vaguely recall you liking Almaviva.

I'd like to start learning about some of the better So. African wines--limited selection here. Hopefully I can pick up a gem or two while in England as I suspect more variety there.

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 58
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 4/1/2008 8:17:36 PM   
theusualsuspect

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		The first growths and highly rated Parker wines seemingly always do well - my earlier point. But below that cutoff you can today, for example, go to PJ Wines in New York and buy 2003 Grand Puy Lacoste for $43.97, Haut Marbuzet for $35.97 (really solid), Peby Faugeres for $67.97, and Rausan Segla for $47.97. I don't have the futures prices in front of me, but I am confident that these prices are very much in the window. My recollection is that Rausan Segla was pretty much at $600. I wouldn't be surprised if many 2005 prices turned out similar when the wines are on the shelf. But there is one variable. If the 2006's hit the shelves at the same or higher prices than the 05's, the 05's will merit higher prices and will fly out the door.

(in reply to cgrimes)
Post #: 59
RE: 2005 Bordeaux - 4/1/2008 8:45:25 PM   
cgrimes

 

Posts: 895
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		I agree that there are still buys out there--partially related to the backside of hype.  There is a lot less buzz about the '03 wines now that everyone is concentrating on '05.  That is why I may reassess buying some past vintages in the coming year if the '07 vintage turns out to be mediocre and expensive. 

(in reply to theusualsuspect)
Post #: 60
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