RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy and were afraid to ask

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 8:13:00 AM

Serge Birbrair

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white Burgs can be quite magical, my my enchantment started with dirt cheap white Burg which is still one of my favorites. What a contrast to fluffy Cali overoaked brothers!

http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=428600

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Post #: 31

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 8:43:12 AM

cgrimes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: apes

Any sub $50 white burgs, that are readily available you would recommend?

Most of my more affordable white burgs are from smaller producers in the Maconnais and Chalonnais regions just south of the Cote De Beaune. They are making better and better wines there and the prices have not skyrocketed...yet. Here are some names:
Domaine Belleville (Rully)
Francois Lumpp (Givry)--my favorite

I get most of my white burgs from Gordon's in Waltham, MA and the importer is Vineyard Research.

Some others I like:
Hubert Lamy St. Aubin Prem cru Les Frionnes
Marc Morey & Fils Bourgogne Blanc
Latour Village Level wines

Hope this is helpful. Might be worth a trip to MA.
Craig

(in reply to apes)

Post #: 32

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 9:43:58 AM

apes

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From: CT
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Actually I will be Boston on Saturday, but don't have much time. I will try and hunt down some of these, thanks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cgrimes

quote:

ORIGINAL: apes

Any sub $50 white burgs, that are readily available you would recommend?

Most of my more affordable white burgs are from smaller producers in the Maconnais and Chalonnais regions just south of the Cote De Beaune. They are making better and better wines there and the prices have not skyrocketed...yet. Here are some names:
Domaine Belleville (Rully)
Francois Lumpp (Givry)--my favorite

I get most of my white burgs from Gordon's in Waltham, MA and the importer is Vineyard Research.

Some others I like:
Hubert Lamy St. Aubin Prem cru Les Frionnes
Marc Morey & Fils Bourgogne Blanc
Latour Village Level wines

Hope this is helpful. Might be worth a trip to MA.
Craig

(in reply to cgrimes)

Post #: 33

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 11:59:07 AM

cgrimes

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Gordon's is on Main St in Waltham just off 95 (exit 26) and right near the MA pike so it wouldn't be far out of your way. If you call them ahead of time you could ask them to pull some for you. If any white (or red for that matter) Lumpp is available, grab it. You won't be disappointed.

(in reply to apes)

Post #: 34

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 12:43:38 PM

Maestro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: apes

Serge you are on the right track, the more I drink of Burgundy the better I like. So those fruit bombs I used to love now pale in comparison. Tonight's wine was a Maestro suggestion,
2002 Michele & Patrice Rion Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Clos des Argillières, you should try it, $59

Apes,

Glad you liked it. I have been tasting the 2005 wines from Patrice Rion and they are also wonderful.

As for the whites, they can be life-changing experiences, but unfortunately only in the high-end will you find your true epiphany. One's first Montrachet is likely to change one's general view on wine.

(in reply to apes)

Post #: 35

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 1:38:49 PM

Dad of vinny

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Not sure how reliable Wiki is for legitimizing stories...

If producers in Burgundy are still serious about freezing Parker out, I would hope to fly over there and buy a vineyard on the cheap as that would be a bad business decision. A great resource for trying some good red burgs is through Scott Paul wines of Oregon. In addition to his delicious Pinots, he imports several burgs and sells them through his website. I picked up some 05's there at a good price and have had the chance to buy some cheaper stuff in order to taste without risk as I know SP won't put naything bad up for sale.

Burgundy is bedeviling mostly for the reasons Parker states in the Business Week article referenced- it IS a minefield.

(in reply to Maestro)

Post #: 36

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 1:59:45 PM

Serge Birbrair

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Dad, Parker knows very little about Burgundy - (speculation), Parker can't even rate it himself (fact), Parker has no respect in Burgundy (fact).

Story in Wikipedia - I don't know if this is a fact or speculation,
while other facts regarding esteemed critic and his relation with the region he doesn't rate speak volumes for me.

Scire aliquid laus est, pudor est nihil discere velle. — "It is commendable to know some things, it is disgraceful to refuse to learn." ( Seneca)

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Post #: 37

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 3:02:21 PM

Dad of vinny

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...and while I don't think Parker is the answer to all wine queries, I don't think it is in the best interest of anyone in any region to treat him with disdain. I know several wine shops that use WA as their main shelf seller for points. If a shop is doing so, their Burg section is going to look a bit light.

I would guess Parker's attitude is that he doesn't necessarily need to be loved in Burg to move his newsletter and website, or gain respect in the rest of the wine world.

I'm just saying for a novice wine buyer who wants to try some Burgs, a shop can move more that say "Parker 94" than a glowing quote from Burghound. In that case, everybody wins, no?

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)

Post #: 38

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 3:20:34 PM

Maestro

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Parker's grasp of Italian wines is also not very good. But he has found a solution to that problem when he hired Antonio Galloni. That guy is sensible and has very good knowledge about Italian wines.

I did not like the guy Parker had before Galloni, Daniel Thomases. Nothing personal, but his reviews never seemed to be remotely in agreement with my opinion, as opposed to Galloni's, which are usually right on the money.

As for Parker himself, when he used to review Italian wines, his palate just does not seem to work for Nebbiolo and Sangiovese at all. His reviews never ever matched my opinion of the wines. He was better with Super-Tuscans that used only Bordeaux varieties, but then again, that's his "home ground" (i.e., Bordeaux Blends).

(in reply to Dad of vinny)

Post #: 39

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 3:32:23 PM

Serge Birbrair

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dad of vinny

...and while I don't think Parker is the answer to all wine queries, I don't think it is in the best interest of anyone in any region to treat him with disdain.

Why? Whoever does that just follows one of the 10 Commandments and is a good Christian.
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
and if Burgundy vignerons consider Parker as the false Prophet, who are we to tell them what to do!?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dad of vinny

I would guess Parker's attitude is that he doesn't necessarily need to be loved in Burg to move his newsletter and website, or gain respect in the rest of the wine world.

...and why exactly should we care about anybody attitudes besides our own? Do YOU care about what WA has to say about Burgundy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dad of vinny

I'm just saying for a novice wine buyer who wants to try some Burgs, a shop can move more that say "Parker 94" than a glowing quote from Burghound. In that case, everybody wins, no?

..and this si why SMART novices learn from the books, wine critics who know the region, wine drinkers sharing their impressions.
Those who learn about Burgundy from the store owners using WA as their shelf talkers deserve our pity,
but that again,
what P.T. Barnum said on the subject!?

Learning from Robert Parker about Burgundy is like learning ethics from Richard Nixon,
bible interpretaions from Larry Flynt or fine points of homosexuality from Jerry Fallwell.

< Message edited by Serge Birbrair -- 6/24/2008 3:39:06 PM >

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Post #: 40

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 3:49:02 PM

Dad of vinny

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...and if a shop uses Parker as its floor reference point and increases sales by doing so, and ends up with a great Bordeaux section, great Aussies, great Rhones, Spain, California etc etc and middling burgundy I think everyone loses.

The issue being that few people will go out of their way for wine knowledge- most want to see 90+ points on the shelf in order to buy. A select few of us may feel otherwise, but the industry needs the other much more.

Producers need WA, Spectator, even Enthusiast- I'm just saying that a group of winemakers freezing out a tastemaker (false prophet or not) seems foolhardy.

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)

Post #: 41

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 3:55:45 PM

Serge Birbrair

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Dad,
what "industry" needs is not my concern. If ALL wine stores go out of business tomorrow,
wine drinkers who know their stuff will still drink the good wine, while those who do not will still buy wine in the supermarket.

Do YOU really care about the wine "industry" on retail level?

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Post #: 42

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 4:22:26 PM

fingers

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From: Santa Ana, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

. If ALL wine stores go out of business tomorrow,
wine drinkers who know their stuff will still drink the good wine, while those who do not will still buy wine in the supermarket.

That's what's so funny, Serge. The people in the wine stores are there because the supermarkets don't use RP shelf tags!

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)

Post #: 43

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 5:05:21 PM

Serge Birbrair

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From: Boca Raton, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

. If ALL wine stores go out of business tomorrow,
wine drinkers who know their stuff will still drink the good wine, while those who do not will still buy wine in the supermarket.

That's what's so funny, Serge. The people in the wine stores are there because the supermarkets don't use RP shelf tags!

well, this si not exactly true.

Do you know who is the biggest wine retailer in USA!?
Costco.

Costco uses WS ratings on the wine shelves. Sometimes the wrong vintage points are displayed with the note "XYZ vintage scores are not available", but scores nevertheless.

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Post #: 44

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 5:14:35 PM

fingers

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Well, that goes right along with the most popular wine in America:

http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=267900

If popularity is key to RP, where's his review on this monster? (sic)

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)

Post #: 45

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 5:28:02 PM

Serge Birbrair

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From: Boca Raton, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

Well, that goes right along with the most popular wine in America:

http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=267900

If popularity is key to RP, where's his review on this monster? (sic)

will WS review be enough?
I read it and I agreed on the Merlot 2004 I tried

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Post #: 46

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/24/2008 11:15:06 PM

Paul S

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From: Singapore
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rak

Hello Paul,

At the risk of this becoming a red Burg only zone, I agree about the hypnotic spell cast by the noble pinot noir. I'm spending more and more per bottle. Drat!

Although I like some white Burgundys (e.g. the Chablis wines of Jean-Marc Brocard), they can't muster up the sort of dizzying passion that the majestic pinot noir commands. What the devil has happened to me? You CTs are making this worse....!

Happy drinking!

Rak - if you ever get to try a bottle of Montrachet from a top producer, I am quite sure you might changes your mind!! Hope I'm not adding fuel to the fire!

(in reply to Rak)

Post #: 47

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/25/2008 8:50:03 AM

Dad of vinny

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

Dad,
what "industry" needs is not my concern. If ALL wine stores go out of business tomorrow,
wine drinkers who know their stuff will still drink the good wine, while those who do not will still buy wine in the supermarket.

Do YOU really care about the wine "industry" on retail level?

Sure I do- I spend a ton of money on wine and make every attempt to spend it locally. For the small business people operating these wine shops, they are beholden, whether you and I like it or not to resources such as Parker, Spectator et al in order to move products off their shelves.On a great day, they will get to spend time with a customer who really wants to learn, or someone like yourself who can come in and have a great discussion about something as mysterious as Burgundy.

For the most part, they are looking at people coming in with various printed matter showing lists of what to buy and these customers need to be accomodated. If varying regions, producers, distributors decide they are too lofty for this process, I can see a few effects happening.

Price Increases due to low volume of imports and sales
General apathy leading to lack of availibility
Continued fear and uncertainty of the European section from many shoppers because they don't know what they are buying.

This is as bad for the Burgundy producers as it is for a shop owner all the way up here in Seattle.

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)

Post #: 48

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/25/2008 9:26:40 AM

Paul S

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I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I think many of the top Burgundy producers would not give two hoots if they are virtually unknown to the general American wine buying populace (i.e. people who subscribe to WA and WS etc). Their production is so small that their allocation is normally booked up a couple of years in advance by keen Burgundy followers, and their prices so high that they are generally millionaire farmers.

(in reply to Dad of vinny)

Post #: 49

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/25/2008 9:27:45 AM

cgrimes

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Dad,

If you talk to wine shop owners, what keeps them in business is not even those who read about wine and obey--they are the people who come in and buy Yellow Tail and Woodbridge by the magnum along with their Bud Light.

Producers in Burgundy can shut out people like Parker because they know their wine will sell out given persistent world-wide demand and they don't need some American pundit bashing their wine. Burgundy (especially good ones) will never be widely available in the US except for those who are willing to go far and wide to find a buyer who has personal interest in the region. That's just the Burgundy way...

(in reply to Dad of vinny)

Post #: 50

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/25/2008 9:32:51 AM

Paul S

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Yup - I totally agree there. Part of the fun and frustration of Burgundy is that you actually have to go far and wide to find someone who sells the producer you like, and chances are that one merchant will only carry a few good labels and you will have to go to another for some other top names. I find myself hunting for the wines more often than not in Singapore at least. Very different from top end Bordeaux, Australian, Chilean etc, where shops are literally falling over themselves to get you to buy their allocation. That is probably where Parker scores would come in handy.

(in reply to cgrimes)

Post #: 51

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/25/2008 9:46:10 AM

cgrimes

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The searching, etc...is also why even on a wine-related forum you still get only a relative minority of Burgundy enthusiasts...

I also find that even those of us who drink and buy more Burgundy tend to compare apples and oranges because we don't all have access to the same producers. Can be frustrating...So when I see that someone has been buying or drinking one of my smaller producers (like Lumpp), they go on my favorite list so I can better follow what they are drinking.

(in reply to Paul S)

Post #: 52

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/25/2008 9:47:05 AM

Serge Birbrair

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From: Boca Raton, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dad of vinny

Sure I do- I spend a ton of money on wine and make every attempt to spend it locally. For the small business people operating these wine shops, they are beholden, whether you and I like it or not to resources such as Parker, Spectator et al in order to move products off their shelves.On a great day, they will get to spend time with a customer who really wants to learn, or someone like yourself who can come in and have a great discussion about something as mysterious as Burgundy.

Does spending money locally makes you feel good in the global economy?
I spent my money where I can find the wine I like at the prices I like.

I don't think we can find consensus on the matter,
you are worrying about store owners and their pedestrian customers and I worry about my family.
To each it's own.

_____________________________

Do you really think you understand terroir!? -

(in reply to Dad of vinny)

Post #: 53

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/25/2008 7:05:35 PM

apes

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I might do that, is there anyone in particular I should speak to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cgrimes

Gordon's is on Main St in Waltham just off 95 (exit 26) and right near the MA pike so it wouldn't be far out of your way. If you call them ahead of time you could ask them to pull some for you. If any white (or red for that matter) Lumpp is available, grab it. You won't be disappointed.

(in reply to cgrimes)

Post #: 54

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/25/2008 7:09:58 PM

apes

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I agree with serge, I want my wine at a reasonable price, as I have said before, here in CT (the state) prices are high due to the governmental policy, so I buy most of my wine online. I don't mind paying more if the service is superior.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dad of vinny

Sure I do- I spend a ton of money on wine and make every attempt to spend it locally. For the small business people operating these wine shops, they are beholden, whether you and I like it or not to resources such as Parker, Spectator et al in order to move products off their shelves.On a great day, they will get to spend time with a customer who really wants to learn, or someone like yourself who can come in and have a great discussion about something as mysterious as Burgundy.

Does spending money locally makes you feel good in the global economy?
I spent my money where I can find the wine I like at the prices I like.

I don't think we can find consensus on the matter,
you are worrying about store owners and their pedestrian customers and I worry about my family.
To each it's own.

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)

Post #: 55

RE: Everything you ever wanted to know about Burgundy a... - 6/25/2008 7:11:18 PM

cgrimes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: apes

I might do that, is there anyone in particular I should speak to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cgrimes

Cheryl Lechan, Dave Gordon, or Bob Kaplan are the main players in the wine dept. They all know me but Cheryl knows me the best. They have a GREAT Burgundy section (from generic to grand cru)--it could be dangerous. If you go send me a report.
Craig

(in reply to apes)