RE: Does California need a wake-up call?

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/26/2008 5:57:44 AM

J2K

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n

< Message edited by J2K -- 6/26/2008 6:09:42 AM >

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/26/2008 6:43:37 AM

esb

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Young vines from phylloxera may have something to do with the general downturn in quality. I visited about a year ago and was surprised at the number of very young vineyards.

Generally people seem very interested in Europe and the amazing array of quality wines available. Good vintages have helped. Is it a downturn in Calif, or an increase in quality elsewhere? I don't know.

Also, it is possible that consumers have finally had enough of the extreme wines that are so popular and are interested in something more restrained and food friendly.

Concerning SO, the heavy use of wood is definitely a house style. The wines seem to lack a sense of place in their youth due to the wood, but can eventually deliver a good glass. I haven't had the '02.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/26/2008 4:28:24 PM

jamscreator

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I agree with Pavie Princess. It is definitely about the quality and less about price. I'm sure you were speaking very "tongue in cheek" about the $8K bottle of Screaming Eagle to be impressed. If I knew of someone who spent that kind of money on one bottle of wine, I'd laugh my a$$ off and ask for a loan! (Interest free, of course). Maybe you just haven't found the stuff that knocks your socks off yet. It is kind of like me and French wine!

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/26/2008 5:05:38 PM

Blue Shorts

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I never tried the 2005 Togni, just the 05. It wasn't bad, but not worth more than 40-50 dollars (I paid $85) and even then it still needed a few yars under its belt to get to 90+ points, if ever.

edit: I checked the CT reviews for the 2004 Togni and the poster that gave it a 95 gave the Lede cab a 93. I completely agree with the Lede review so maybe the 2004 is much better than the 2005? Maybe I got a bad bottle? Oddly enough, I tasted the 2005 Togni after the 2005 Lede. 11 others at the table with me agreed that the Togni was not worth it.... and all loved the Lede.

< Message edited by Blue Shorts -- 6/26/2008 5:09:49 PM >

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/26/2008 6:13:09 PM

deb293

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The only CA producer whose mailing list I'm on for Cab and Merlot is Pride. Do they hit a winner every year? No. But they are consistent and moderately priced by "cult" standards, and make some wonderful wines (both red and white.)

I doubt they are available in Italy. On a tour to Italy I took several years ago, I mentioned to the guide how few American wines seemed to be available in the stores there. And she said to me, " Why would we import American wines when we have so many good wines in Italy? I mean, they're not very good, are they?" Have times changed?

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/26/2008 8:37:09 PM

Paul S

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro

I have been examining all the suggested wines in this thread, and -- apart from the ones Serge found in Rome -- I can't get any of them over here.

So maybe the issue with California is that, to get the good stuff, you need to live in the US. Over here we get mostly the mass production stuff (Mondavi Woodbridge, etc), or the high-end stuff (Dominus, etc). The bottle of SO that triggered the discussion I actually bought at the vinery in Napa.

We have access to a somewhat wider range of Zinfandels over here, but the producers I can get (Seghesio, Ravenswood, Mondavi, Gallo, Renaissance, Parducci, Montevina, Ironstone...) seem to be going for the "vanilla/coconut/oak-oak-oak/jammy fruit/15.5-alcohol" formula.

There is a scene in "Bottle Shock" where Alan Rickman is sitting in a bar in California tasting wines, and -- in total amazement and disbelief -- he utters: "these Californian wines... they are so... good". I think this scene might continue to hold true today, though. We may still need to go all the way down there to experience the good stuff.

Sure sounds like it - I was planning a trip down to Napa this year, but had to cancel due to financial commitments. But you know, with the huge mass of producers in califronia, and no "grading" system in the old world, or even Langton's in Australia, how on earth would I know where to start anyway? Believe it or not, I actually find California harder to get ot grips with than Burgundy!

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/26/2008 8:40:03 PM

Paul S

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Sorry for the quick follow-on. Thanks for the comments on the Togni 2004 everyone. I have time, and quite a bit of patience to cellar as well, but I am just not so sure whether I am paying for quality or reputation, given that the 2004 is US$115 or so here. I think I can well skip it.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/28/2008 7:37:47 PM

tacman

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Paul S.
Togni makes beautiful wines, but (in his own words) be prepared to wait 10 years to appreciate them. If you ever see his Ca'Togni (dessert wine) it is magnificent (young) and you should try it - think liquid rose petals.
Ridge MonteBello similarly great, but be prepared to wait.
Shafer Hillside magnificent but $$$, the 1.5 is very nice and much better PQR (and a nice tour/tasting when you visit).
Pride is consistently very good - the Reserves (C.S. and Claret) are great but harder to find (and a great tour/lunch spot when you visit).
Peter Michael's Les Pavot is (year in and year out) one of the best bordeaux blends to come out of CA (imo)
Lewis (Randy and Debbie) make great cabs/reserve cabs
Anderson's Conn Valley is another very good PQR

These are just Napa area cabs (except Ridge); the real joy comes from finding the next "great one" and getting a few cases before WS and RP blow the price out of the water.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/29/2008 6:04:22 AM

Paul S

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Haha, now you're encouraging me to spend! Just when I thought that the forum had caused me to save money for once.

We have quite a bit of exposure to Ridge, Shafer and Pride here in Singapore. I will look out for the rest that you mentioned. Is the 2004 Togni any good in your opinion and, more importantly, is it worth the price at US$115?

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/29/2008 6:40:28 AM

deb293

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Interesting to see the line-up Execitive Wine Seminars has put together for this summer...

Sanely Priced Cabernets

Wednesday, July 30 6:30 - 8:30 p.m. Blind Tasting

Cost: $125 Member’s Price: $115 Limited to 38

As a sequel to last year’s highly successful Sanely Priced Bordeaux blind tasting, we offer the same concept, using American Cabernet Sauvignon as our theme. In response to rising prices that have driven so many Cabernets beyond $100, EWS now offers Sanely Priced Cabernets, bringing together 13 superb Cabernets from California and Washington State that retail for $80 or less. Each of these wines is capable of giving a Grand Cru performance at a relatively modest cost. Some are familiar names, while others are almost unknown. If you love great values and love great wine, come join us to taste these luscious American Cabernets: 2004 Chappellet “Signature” • 2004 Neal Family • 2005 Beau Vigne “Juliet” • 2004 Schrader Double Diamond “Mayacamus Range” • 2005 Shelter 2729 (amazing EWS discovery) • 2004 Karl Lawrwnce • 2004 Stewart (93WA) • 2004 Conn Valley Reserve (95WA) • 2005 Orin Swift “Papillon” • 2004 Chateau Ste. Michelle “Cold Creek” (inexpensive ringer) • Betz Family “Pere de Famile” (93+IWC) • 2005 Andrew Will “Sorella” • 2005 Owen Roe “Dubrul Vineyard”

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/29/2008 7:11:43 AM

Paul S

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Lovely - none of which are available here! I think that is one problem for overseas consumers - the American market for good local cabs is so large (for many, many reasons that I will not go into here), that a lot of the wines are not widely exported.

< Message edited by Paul S -- 6/29/2008 7:13:50 AM >

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 6/29/2008 9:17:49 AM

deb293

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Which is probably why many get a skewed view of the quality from an overseas perspective. Conversely, in Europe, even small producers actively search for US distribution.

< Message edited by deb293 -- 6/29/2008 9:18:04 AM >

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 7/5/2008 12:12:26 PM

tacman

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Paul S.,
sorry for the lag ... busy working. I hope it's worth the $ I paid for mine (less off of the mailing list), but I have not tried it yet. I am drinking my mid-90's Tognis now and remain wow'ed by them, but every time I try a young one I am less enthusiastic ... so I refrain from disappointment.
TC

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 7/6/2008 3:12:51 AM

Paul S

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Thanks! I decided to spend my American Wine moolah on l'Aventure instead. I like Rhone Rangers and my merchant had a 20% discount.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 7/7/2008 9:24:28 AM

pbm

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With regard to the essence of the initial question regarding whether there's been a fall off in CA quality there's a little nugget buried deep in a recent Wine and Spirits article. The suggestion is that the initial generation of CA cabs that acquired true worldwide acceptance as excellent wines was prior to the widespread use of irrigation. The hypothesis is that irrigation led to a standardization of taste and lower quality due to the roots not having to work as hard in the soil.

Whether you agree with that or not, it's actually a fascinating article given the climate change issue and predictions of a coming water shortage in the western US.

Thought I'd add specifics re: the issue. June 2008, page 58. I'd post a link but you have to subscribe to get the article. John William's of Frog's Leap makes the irrigation comment:

"I contend that irrigation is behind the big alcohol movement, because there isn't the same development of flavors or normal sugar levels. Come taste the wines that made Napa famous -- Stag's Leap, BV, and Inglenook -- they were all dry farmed and picked at 23.5 Brix to make 12.5 to 13 percent alcohol wine. But that's all changed now, largely because of what irrigation has brought to the picture."

There's more supporting comments from Ehren Jordan (Turley winemaker) but you get the idea.

< Message edited by pbm -- 7/7/2008 9:36:38 AM >

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 7/7/2008 10:23:20 AM

deb293

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Ehren Jordan in support of low alcohol wines?

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 7/7/2008 1:02:34 PM

pbm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deb293

Ehren Jordan in support of low alcohol wines?

Not exactly. What he says, while agreeing with the general notion that irrigation has changed things, is that were today's wines grown the "old-fashioned" way they "would be more rustic in style than what people want today."

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 7/8/2008 12:43:07 PM

TampaDan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deb293

Interesting to see the line-up Execitive Wine Seminars has put together for this summer...

Sanely Priced Cabernets

Wednesday, July 30 6:30 - 8:30 p.m. Blind Tasting

Cost: $125 Member’s Price: $115 Limited to 38

As a sequel to last year’s highly successful Sanely Priced Bordeaux blind tasting, we offer the same concept, using American Cabernet Sauvignon as our theme. In response to rising prices that have driven so many Cabernets beyond $100, EWS now offers Sanely Priced Cabernets, bringing together 13 superb Cabernets from California and Washington State that retail for $80 or less. Each of these wines is capable of giving a Grand Cru performance at a relatively modest cost. Some are familiar names, while others are almost unknown. If you love great values and love great wine, come join us to taste these luscious American Cabernets: 2004 Chappellet “Signature” • 2004 Neal Family • 2005 Beau Vigne “Juliet” • 2004 Schrader Double Diamond “Mayacamus Range” • 2005 Shelter 2729 (amazing EWS discovery) • 2004 Karl Lawrwnce • 2004 Stewart (93WA) • 2004 Conn Valley Reserve (95WA) • 2005 Orin Swift “Papillon” • 2004 Chateau Ste. Michelle “Cold Creek” (inexpensive ringer) • Betz Family “Pere de Famile” (93+IWC) • 2005 Andrew Will “Sorella” • 2005 Owen Roe “Dubrul Vineyard”

Nice to see Chappellet on this list. One of the Valley's oldest and most reliable producers, their Signature Cabernet is one of the best year in and year out, and may still be below $50 per bottle retail, which I suppose qualifies as a bargain for Napa Cabernet. The wines are quite Bordelais in style and require lots of bottle aging, but the end results always justify the patience, even in a difficult vintage like 1998. I'm not quite sure about their Pritchard Hill Estate offerings, which seem like more of an effort to craft an international-style "blockbuster", something more similar to their Pritchard Hill neighbors Bryant Family perhaps. Can't say as I blame them with the sorts of prices these wines fetch, but the Signature Cabernet is their best wine IMHO.

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RE: Does California need a wake-up call? - 7/8/2008 10:33:47 PM

ParkHill

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I note the presence of three Washington state wines:

2004 Chateau Ste. Michelle “Cold Creek” (inexpensive ringer) • Betz Family “Pere de Famile” (93+IWC) • 2005 Andrew Will “Sorella”

My only comments:

Ch Ste Michelle is a mass-production winery with decent, varietal character at the $20 level.

Betz & Andrew Will are more "boutique" in positioning, but cheaper than the California equivalent. I'm not up on all the hot Washington wines, but Betz, Andrew Will, Leonetti, and Delille get consistently high ratings.

(in reply to TampaDan)

Post #: 49