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RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/18/2008 5:36:26 AM

Serge Birbrair

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CL, Betamax was much better format than VHS,
Mac was better computer than PC
and...none of them won the world domination due to poor marketing.

There is a good saying in marketing circles:
"The quality of the best products is irrelevent if they remain on the shelves and not being sold".

Without the marketing BDX would be that product. Bordeaux always had this "Keeping up with Joneses" aura...created by good marketing! Do you know how old Bordeaux futures institution is and who was the first to implement it? The answer has direct connection to your country of birth.

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Post #: 31

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/18/2008 1:15:07 PM

Colonel Lawrence

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I have never heard that "good saying in marketing circles".

Bordeaux still exists Betamax doesn't - end of story.

Did 'marketing' exist in 1855?

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Post #: 32

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/18/2008 1:52:36 PM

Serge Birbrair

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CL, you kidding me, right?
Marketing ALWAYS existed...always.

FYI, Betamax is dead and so is VHS.

As for the "end of story", I suggest reading books other than Holy Bible.
Human history is NEVER "end of the story" and always "end of one story and begining of another story".

Out of 8000 years history of winemaking, how long was Bordeax producing "the best wines in the world"?
50% of time?
20% of time?
10%?
less?

Everything is relative in this world and in the state of flux.

Care to guess which region was producing "The best wine in the world" in 21 AD?

< Message edited by Serge Birbrair -- 7/18/2008 1:55:43 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/18/2008 6:13:03 PM

Paul S

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Interestingly enough, the 1855 classification was a major marketing exercise. The merchants selling Bordelais wines (quite a few English amongst them) wanted something that would make their wines easily recognisable to the public and make Bordeaux easier to understand, so they came up with the classification based on how much the wines fetched on the market then. This is, of course, a very over-simplified system that has shown it's weakness over the years - but boy has it worked wonders for Bordeaux's image. Way easier to understand and grasp then Burgundy or Italy or Germany for sure!

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Post #: 34

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/18/2008 6:17:05 PM

Serge Birbrair

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Paul, bravo!

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Post #: 35

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/18/2008 8:26:29 PM

cgrimes

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Serge, Is that you with the wispy, blonde hair?

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RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/18/2008 9:03:13 PM

fingers

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quote:

Care to guess which region was producing "The best wine in the world" in 21 AD?

Well muse, how about it?

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Post #: 37

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/18/2008 10:55:50 PM

Blue Shorts

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

I have never heard that "good saying in marketing circles".

Bordeaux still exists Betamax doesn't - end of story.

Did 'marketing' exist in 1855?

Ironically, colonel, Beta was used extensively during the VHS years... only it was in professional studios. A few still use it today, but digital will soon make short work of that.

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Post #: 38

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/19/2008 12:11:52 AM

Serge Birbrair

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

quote:

Care to guess which region was producing "The best wine in the world" in 21 AD?

Well muse, how about it?

Falerno, Italy

Good agers too! Better agers than Sauternes.
"Pliny noted that a Falernian wine from 121 BC was served to Caligula (12 - 41 AD)."

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Post #: 39

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/19/2008 1:11:35 AM

Serge Birbrair

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cgrimes

Serge, Is that you with the wispy, blonde hair?

nope,
here is me at my younger age:

Some more about "best wine", history of "best wine" and surprise surprise....guess where from wine came TO Bordeaux before 78 AD!???

quote:

The 2nd century BC began the "golden age" of Roman winemaking and the development of Grand cru vineyards (a type of early First Growths in Rome). The vintage of 121BC was of legendary fame and became known as the Opimian vintage, named after the consul at the time-Lucius Opimius. The vintage was noted for its large harvest and the unusually high quality of wine that was produced-with some examples still being drunk over 100 years later. Pliny the Elder wrote extensively about the "first growths" of Rome-most notably Falernian, Alban and Caecuban. Other first growth vineyards include Rhaeticum and Hadrianum located along the Po river in what are now the modern day regions of Lombardy and Venice respectively

and

quote:

Amphorae stamped with the emblems of Pompeian merchants have been found across the Roman empire including the modern day regions of Bordeaux, Narbonne, Toulouse and Spain. There is evidence to suggest that the popularity and notoriety of Pompeian wine may have given rise to early wine fraud with fraudulent stamps being used to mark amphorae of non-Pompeian wine.[4]
The 79 AD eruption of Mount Vesuvius had a devastating effect on the Roman wine industry. Vineyards across the region were destroyed, as well as warehouses storing the recent 78 AD vintage, causing a dramatic shortage of wine.

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Post #: 40

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/19/2008 2:04:08 AM

Maestro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

quote:

Care to guess which region was producing "The best wine in the world" in 21 AD?

Well muse, how about it?

Falerno, Italy

Good agers too! Better agers than Sauternes.
"Pliny noted that a Falernian wine from 121 BC was served to Caligula (12 - 41 AD)."

Well, since I am Calabrian myself, it looks like I was born just about 2 000 years too late, otherwise I might have been one of those dominating the wine business...

Today, Falerno wines are almost always associated with the Falerno del Massico DOC from Caserta in Campania, and not with the wines of Falerna in Calabria (they still make wines in Falerna, but it is not a classified area and the wines are only table wines for local consumption).

Calabria does make good wines, particularly out of a grape called Gaglioppo, in the DOC area of Cirò. But we don't hold our breath waiting for a visit from Bob Parker...

Well, they say these things go in cycles, so maybe in another 2 000 years Calabria will dominate again...

(in reply to Serge Birbrair)

Post #: 41

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/19/2008 2:14:51 AM

Serge Birbrair

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Caserta, the one near Naples? With Napoleon III castle?

I read in the same source that the grapes in original Falerna were destroyed by Pyloxera
:( Here go the plans for "world-wide domination"
:)

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Post #: 42

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/19/2008 2:24:03 AM

Maestro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul S

Interestingly enough, the 1855 classification was a major marketing exercise (...) worked wonders for Bordeaux's image. Way easier to understand and grasp then Burgundy or Italy or Germany for sure!

Paul, I just want to raise an objection to comparing a region to a country. I can easily claim that Piedmont is way easier to understand and grasp than 'France'.

If you want to explore top 10% of Italian wines in terms of quality, I think we are easier to understand than the French. All you need to learn is the producer names of the DOCG areas of Brunello, Barolo, Barbaresco and Amarone, as well as the ones in the Bolgheri region of Tuscany. That just about covers 80% of the top wines. The remaining 20% (Taurasi in Campania, Etna in Sicily, etc.) are fun to explore, but of course it is much more fragmented. But then again, so is the Languedoc-Roussillon.

Don't get me wrong, Bordeaux is easy to grasp. But at country level, I don't think Italy is worse than France. All in all, they have Burgundy...

But they are better in marketing than we are. Of that I am sure...

Here's my contribution to understanding Italy.

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Post #: 43

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/19/2008 2:29:51 AM

Maestro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair
Caserta, the one near Naples? With Napoleon III castle?

Yes, that would be the one. About a 40-minute drive north of Naples.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair
I read in the same source that the grapes in original Falerna were destroyed by Pyloxera
:( Here go the plans for "world-wide domination"
:)

Everything everywhere was destroyed by Phyloxera. About 80% of the rootstocks in France and Italy today come originally from Texas...

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Post #: 44

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/19/2008 2:52:56 AM

Serge Birbrair

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Been there and had my g/f purse picked from the car in the broad day light on A1 driving thru Naples when somebody punctured my tire! The oldest scam in the book!. I wish I read this website BEFORE going thru Naples!!!!!!!!
http://nocomments.com/2/sicily/index2.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro
Everything everywhere was destroyed by Phyloxera. About 80% of the rootstocks in France and Italy today come originally from Texas...

Not everything...there are some regions in Spain boasting they survived Phylloxera.

< Message edited by Serge Birbrair -- 7/19/2008 2:53:33 AM >

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Post #: 45

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/19/2008 2:58:09 AM

Maestro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro
Everything everywhere was destroyed by Phyloxera. About 80% of the rootstocks in France and Italy today come originally from Texas...

Not everything...there are some regions in Spain boasting they survived Phylloxera.

Toro? Goodness me... Maybe it was too rustic even for the Phyloxera...

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Post #: 46

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/19/2008 3:04:00 AM

Serge Birbrair

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hahahah!
Toro is surely too rustic for me! I am not a big fan of Numanthia.

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Post #: 47

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/19/2008 9:22:21 AM

Paul S

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul S

Interestingly enough, the 1855 classification was a major marketing exercise (...) worked wonders for Bordeaux's image. Way easier to understand and grasp then Burgundy or Italy or Germany for sure!

Paul, I just want to raise an objection to comparing a region to a country. I can easily claim that Piedmont is way easier to understand and grasp than 'France'.

If you want to explore top 10% of Italian wines in terms of quality, I think we are easier to understand than the French. All you need to learn is the producer names of the DOCG areas of Brunello, Barolo, Barbaresco and Amarone, as well as the ones in the Bolgheri region of Tuscany. That just about covers 80% of the top wines. The remaining 20% (Taurasi in Campania, Etna in Sicily, etc.) are fun to explore, but of course it is much more fragmented. But then again, so is the Languedoc-Roussillon.

Don't get me wrong, Bordeaux is easy to grasp. But at country level, I don't think Italy is worse than France. All in all, they have Burgundy...

But they are better in marketing than we are. Of that I am sure...

Here's my contribution to understanding Italy.

Hi Maestro, I take your point - I suspect I should have been a little clearer. I think what the 1855 system does for the consumer, assuming we put its many flaws aside, and which other wine regions and countries do not have, is a clear demarcation with an "official" stamp between different tiers of producers. So even if one is not as acquainted with the top wines of Bordeaux as say you are with the top tier in different areas of Italy, it is still possible to point to a classed growth and go "Ah ha, I am paying this much money for a first growth, so I expect it to be better than the fifth growth at a much lower price."

This system which actually classifies each individual producer is far more detailed than the appelation / denomination grading. Illusory as this demarcation of quality may be in some cases today, it is still a brilliant marketing ploy.

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Post #: 48

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/19/2008 12:57:21 PM

zippz

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"Bordeaux" as a specialty is quite a tall order
for most i would think this would be considered too general of a claim
(note all the subregions within)
i.e. stating "Bordeaux: Graves, Marganx & Fronsac" as a specialty
would give a more accurate picture to those who are full of questions

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Post #: 49

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/22/2008 10:22:59 AM

PSirah Tampa

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I'll sign up for the Petite Sirah department. My cellar has around 400 bottles of the stuff in it; I better be learning something!

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RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/22/2008 10:29:00 AM

Serge Birbrair

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PSirah Tampa

I'll sign up for the Petite Sirah department. My cellar has around 400 bottles of the stuff in it; I better be learning something!

Petite Syrah!?
Man, you like 'em big, don't ya????

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RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/22/2008 2:02:11 PM

cgrimes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PSirah Tampa

I'll sign up for the Petite Sirah department. My cellar has around 400 bottles of the stuff in it; I better be learning something!

Have you ever had Vincent Arroyo?
Craig

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Post #: 52

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/22/2008 6:38:01 PM

Paul S

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My goodness - Petite Syrah. Tell us a little more Serge - what shoudld we be looking out for in a good Petite Syrah and, more importantly, who should we try for a good example?

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Post #: 53

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/22/2008 6:39:20 PM

fingers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

Bordeaux makes more of the great wine of the world than any other single area.

Beloved Colonel, I beseach ye to read "Judgement of Paris"

When you say "more great wine" is that in terms of $ or litres? When you say "single area", that includes all appellations of Bordeaux - which is larger than Napa and Sonoma combined. Should we include all the other California appellations? There is NO doubt that California's Bordeaux varietals are right up there with French. Now, if you want to include Burgundy and Rhone, then we can throw Oregon and Washington into the mix and still match it up. I have a feeling the Italians could make a similar argument but we're talking different grapes there. I think the truth is, thanks to French tradition and lore, as well as U C Davis, we are coming to the same point that professional sports are at: parity. Your statement is true, historically, until 1976 when the French themselves preferred the California Cabernet over their own 1st growths . Maybe it would still be true but we would need several glasses and brown paper bags to determine for ourselves.

Anyone else in the Pacific Time Zone concur?

< Message edited by fingers -- 7/22/2008 6:50:55 PM >

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Post #: 54

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/22/2008 8:01:47 PM

Paul S

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That is one big can of worms there. I am not sure the judgment of Paris and its various follow-ups are entirely fair though. I don't think it is controversial that certain wines do tend to come out better in blind tastings than when paired with food. What I love about Bordeaux is that, at its best and at an appropriate age, it is a fantastic food wine. With lamb, absolutely divine. I am not sure many of the top Cali Cabs will go as seamlessly with food and suspect that the pairing "band", i.e. the types of food they can go with, is probably narrower due to their rather bigger, higher alcohol and sweeter nature.

Call me bigoted, but I don't think there has yet been a high profile Judgment style Pinot / Chardonnay showdown. This could come back and bite me in future, but I dare say Burgundy will win hands down. Different here, we are no longer talking about blends, but a single varietal, and not the hardy Cabernet grape, but the fickle, hard to grow, very easily influenced Pinot Noir - I suspect that that little piece of land known as the Cote d'Or cannot be matched. Chardonnay maybe, just maybe, but if you have tasted a wine from one of the Montrachet vineyards, they can be breathtaking. Maybe I will be forced to take a big bite of humble pie on this in future - but all the better if I can find great pinot outside of Burgundy. Bet it would be cheaper too!

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Post #: 55

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/22/2008 8:56:07 PM

Serge Birbrair

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul S

My goodness - Petite Syrah. Tell us a little more Serge - what shoudld we be looking out for in a good Petite Syrah and, more importantly, who should we try for a good example?

Paul, I am NOT an expert, PSirah Tampa is!
I was in touch with Petite Syrah only once. When I first tried Marquis Phillip #9, I posted on OZ wine board how big that wine was and one of the regulars posted that his Petit Syrah is much bigger. This statement was good enough for me to not like Petit Syrah even before I tasted it.
:)

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RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/22/2008 8:59:22 PM

Serge Birbrair

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I am not a huge fan of those competitions. What exactly do they prove?
They only prove that some people liked some wines more than they liked another wines which means exactly what to YOU, me, our pets and spouses?

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RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/22/2008 9:29:47 PM

J2K

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

Been there and had my g/f purse picked from the car in the broad day light on A1 driving thru Naples when somebody punctured my tire!

Serge,
I can't believe this story....................you had a girlfriend ?????????

< Message edited by J2K -- 7/22/2008 9:30:44 PM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Areas of "speciality" - 7/22/2008 11:18:16 PM

Paul S

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul S

My goodness - Petite Syrah. Tell us a little more Serge - what shoudld we be looking out for in a good Petite Syrah and, more importantly, who should we try for a good example?

Paul, I am NOT an expert, PSirah Tampa is!
I was in touch with Petite Syrah only once. When I first tried Marquis Phillip #9, I posted on OZ wine board how big that wine was and one of the regulars posted that his Petit Syrah is much bigger. This statement was good enough for me to not like Petit Syrah even before I tasted it.
:)