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RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/4/2008 11:44:30 AM   
esb

 

Posts: 125
Joined: 1/17/2008
From: Bend, Oregon
Status: offline 		Important issue, thanks. I use the cork pull and replace, long, cool aeration method for big, young, structured reds. For periods over 24 hours you get the positives of air while minimizing the negatives. This method can also work wonders for young, white Burgundy, or any cool climate Chardonnay. Recently had good results with '06 DDO Arthur, but used fridge instead of cellar. Works with Sauternes as well.

Also try with wines in dumb stage of development. Once purchased a Chardonnay several months in advance of an event. At time of event it was good, but had lost something in evolution. 24 hrs., cork pulled and replaced, slow aeration in the fridge before the event and it was fantastic, displaying most, if not all, of its lost nuance.

How many times have you read a review and realized the taster completely missed the wine? Unfortunately, opinion formed before the wine opened up. Here's an example.

2003 Rocca di Montegrossi

"i opened this on day one and was quite disappointed and was ready to write a scathing review. Second day, (I know but I hate to waste wine,) it was a totally different wine, very mellow and drinkable. The first day it had an unpleasant metallic flavour to it, and had a harsh note to it. Bottom line if you want to decant it for a long period of time it is a decent wine, but having said that over-all it was a disappointment. (407 views)"

And, I think this may be one reason wines purchased in a tasting are not quite up to expectation when consumed at home. Winery staff know the wines and it's their responsibility to use any method available to ensure they show well. But at home we don't always have the right formula. ok, that's enough one handed typing due to injury.

(in reply to z_willus_d)
Post #: 31
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/5/2008 8:32:33 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 933
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online 		Maestro,

I think you should be awarded the wine equivalent of the nobel peace price for research into wine.

Thanks for that - I'm going to give it a go next time I am in France where my cellar is.

_____________________________

-- Paul

(in reply to esb)
Post #: 32
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/5/2008 9:11:55 AM   
Maestro

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

Maestro,

I think you should be awarded the wine equivalent of the nobel peace price for research into wine.

Thanks for that - I'm going to give it a go next time I am in France where my cellar is.


Thanks, pjaines... I am submitting the Mollydooker Switcheroo method to the Nobel commission in Sweden... Fingers crossed...

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 33
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/5/2008 9:19:55 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 564
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Not as scientific as the experiment with the Chianti, but last night I opened a bottle of the 2002 Château Saint-Pierre, which I had had a few days ago, and there's no doubt today that I enjoy this wine better after the 24-hour aeration in bottle.

What I learn from this Bordeaux wine is that, when you pour the wine from the bottle that had been open for 24 hours, it still needs aeration in the glass, but it happens fast, and as soon as you expose the shoulder of the bottle (by pouring the first glass) the rest of the wine in the bottle starts to aerate and open up fast.

So it looks like, for young wines, you seem to be safe with:

1) Remove the cork and leave the bottle in the cellar for 24 hours untouched;
2) After 24 hours, pour a glass or two out of the bottle;
3) Let the first glasses aerate a bit (15 minutes or so) and start consuming the wine.

The whole of the wine will open up quite quickly after the initial 15 minutes (i.e., after the shoulder is exposed).


(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 34
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/5/2008 1:32:54 PM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 933
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online 		Maestro,  seeing as we are delving into scientific experiment methodology I think I have spotted one flaw in your test.  What happens if you dont plan your drinking 24 hours+ ahead?  If I did this, then I need something that offsets the (increasing) accusations that I am a very sad wine geek.    Please help.  I think my wife is getting ready for divorce based on examples such as this.

Today she accused me of loving my wines more than her.  I think this experiment may be the straw that breaks the camel's back if I carry it out.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 35
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/5/2008 11:40:43 PM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 2093
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From: Arabia
Status: offline 		You'll have to stop taking your bottles to bed with you.

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 36
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 3:29:57 AM   
Maestro

 

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Joined: 10/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines
I need something that offsets the (increasing) accusations that I am a very sad wine geek.    Please help. 

No-can-do... You can't argue with the truth...


quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines
What happens if you dont plan your drinking 24 hours+ ahead? 

I believe 3-4 hours in the decanter are the next best alternative for a young wine.


quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines
Today she accused me of loving my wines more than her.  I think this experiment may be the straw that breaks the camel's back if I carry it out.

Disguise your wine consumption as "romantic dinners"... It works for me...




< Message edited by Maestro -- 10/6/2008 3:33:08 AM >

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 37
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 3:50:19 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 933
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro
Disguise your wine consumption as "romantic dinners"... It works for me...




But I dont want my wife interupting my romantic diner with my bottles of wines!!!

_____________________________

-- Paul

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 38
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 8:10:06 AM   
fingers

 

Posts: 748
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: online 		Paul, if she can put up with your extra-marital affair then you may just have to tolerate vinus interuptus occasionally. 

(in reply to pjaines)
Post #: 39
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 8:56:27 AM   
fingers

 

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From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro

If you really want to improve the contents of a bottle of Mollydooker, I suggest the "Mollydooker Switcheroo" method instead.

It is simple: you:
...(1) take a bottle of any Mollydooker wine;
...(2) remove the cork;
...(3) dump the strange contents of the bottle down the drain of your sink;
...(4) rinse the bottle thoroughly;
...(5) fill the bottle again with some nice wine -- maybe a Côtes du Rhône or a CdP.

According to my experience, it is the only way to improve the contents of a bottle of Mollydooker.


Never let it be said that I won't take on the establishment and so I'm playing Devil's advocate here,

Maestro, have you ever tried any Mollydooker?  (no TN's in CT)  And just to upset Serge, why in the world does it get rated so high by CT drinkers?  My '06 Carnival of Love has about 70 reviews that average 93.6,  indicating that the great majority of consumers really like it.  I think I'll pour a bunch into unmarked bottles and bring it to the next Cellarpalooza, sit back and watch the reactions. 

(I think I'll sit back now and watch the "great majoirty of consumers like it" line get re-quoted to make a point about me being a lemming.)

< Message edited by fingers -- 10/6/2008 9:03:43 AM >

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 40
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 9:01:18 AM   
cgrimes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro

If you really want to improve the contents of a bottle of Mollydooker, I suggest the "Mollydooker Switcheroo" method instead.

It is simple: you:
...(1) take a bottle of any Mollydooker wine;
...(2) remove the cork;
...(3) dump the strange contents of the bottle down the drain of your sink;
...(4) rinse the bottle thoroughly;
...(5) fill the bottle again with some nice wine -- maybe a Côtes du Rhône or a CdP.

According to my experience, it is the only way to improve the contents of a bottle of Mollydooker.


Never let it be said that I won't take on the establishment and so I'm playing Devil's advocate here,

Maestro, have you ever tried any Mollydooker?  (no TN's in CT)  And just to upset Serge, why in the world does it get rated so high by CT drinkers?  My '06 Carnival of Love has about 70 reviews that average 93.6,  indicating that the great majority of consumers really like it.  I think I'll pour a bunch into unmarked bottles and bring it to the next Cellarpalooza, sit back and watch the reactions. 

(I think I'll sit back now and watch the "great majoirty of consumers like it" line get re-quoted to make your point.)


Fingers, you beat me to it.  When the winemaker comes out and states that his wine will improve by shaking the hell out of it one must be suspect...I have tried Mollydooker and I can honestly say I'd rather drink Vicks Formula 44 than that vile stuff he calls wine. 

(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 41
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 9:17:59 AM   
Paul S

 

Posts: 509
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: Singapore
Status: offline 		I've had a Mollydooker, and it still sends shivers down my spine to think about the experience. I think the bottling I had was called "The Boxer's Armpits" or something like that: http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=238920

< Message edited by Paul S -- 10/6/2008 9:20:08 AM >

(in reply to cgrimes)
Post #: 42
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 9:25:01 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 933
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: online 		Their very own website gives this wonderful example of how to do it.

http://www.mollydookerwines.com/web/mollydooker_shake.cfm#about

The method of preparation tells you everything you need to know about the wine.

Imagine doing this with a Haut Brion 1961?

_____________________________

-- Paul

(in reply to Paul S)
Post #: 43
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 9:32:07 AM   
fingers

 

Posts: 748
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: online 		I think you're right about Boxer, it seems to inspire the most vitriol.  But, still with 314 CT notes it scores 89.9.  As far as the "Shake"?  That's a total gimmick and according to their website, is only effective in the first two years after bottling anyway.  I'm sure that violently aerating any wine is going to change it's character.  And still, how do we explain the high scores?  Are these all 2BC drinkers?  Pavie fans?

On another note, here's a winemaker I can agree with:  back label of Bruno Tait's Ballbuster reads, "I don't know what aromas and flavors you'll find when you try this wine  -  wine appreciation is so subjective and often too pretentious for my liking.  I make my wines the way I like them - big, thick, juicy and deep in color.."

(in reply to Paul S)
Post #: 44
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 9:53:49 AM   
NiklasW

 

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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

I think you're right about Boxer, it seems to inspire the most vitriol.  But, still with 314 CT notes it scores 89.9. ... And still, how do we explain the high scores?  Are these all 2BC drinkers?  Pavie fans?



Maybe Eric's recent posting saying that 80% of the traffic on CT is still from North America explains some of this? Big fruit is pop in NA? (woops, quick, dive into the trenches!)

(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 45
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 10:13:50 AM   
cgrimes

 

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From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NiklasW

quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

I think you're right about Boxer, it seems to inspire the most vitriol.  But, still with 314 CT notes it scores 89.9. ... And still, how do we explain the high scores?  Are these all 2BC drinkers?  Pavie fans?



Maybe Eric's recent posting saying that 80% of the traffic on CT is still from North America explains some of this? Big fruit is pop in NA? (woops, quick, dive into the trenches!)



This is my theory about scores and "The Boxer."  People buy it because of Parker's score, never try it blind, and think that they must like it because he did.  Those scores are falsely elevated and I would not pay attention to even the average.

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 46
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 10:59:32 AM   
fingers

 

Posts: 748
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: NiklasW


Maybe Eric's recent posting saying that 80% of the traffic on CT is still from North America explains some of this? Big fruit is pop in NA? (woops, quick, dive into the trenches!)



Then this factor would be true across all wines in CT, not just Mollydooker.  Maybe it is, but I don't have that data.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cgrimes

This is my theory about scores and "The Boxer."  People buy it because of Parker's score, never try it blind, and think that they must like it because he did.  Those scores are falsely elevated and I would not pay attention to even the average


Then this factor would be true of all Parker scored wines.  We don't have that data, either.

I tend to think that vast majority are simply scoring to their own tastes (don't you?) and therefore it can be concluded that most drinkers enjoy it.  You'd have to be a pretty sorry dolt (and I'm not saying they're not out there) to drink a wine that you don't like and say, "Well it must be good because someone else says so".  We deserve more credit than that and I have favorite authors that both pump and pan MD.  In fact, I have both loved and loathed The Boxer myself and don't know if it was bottle variation, decanting, or 3 months cellar time that made the difference.  I do think the juice is volatile and can change dramatically with time, temperature, and air as many wines do.  I would also tend to think that people are more influenced over price paid than RP scores and that could influence score (well I paid a lot, it must be good!)

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 47
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 11:04:09 AM   
NiklasW

 

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From: Finland
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

Then this factor would be true across all wines in CT, not just Mollydooker.  Maybe it is, but I don't have that data.


I don't either, but I have noticed several times that wines I like get badly scored (they are not fruit bombs), while wines I don't like get highly scored (fruit bombs). It is a matter of taste of course, and I certainly have nothing against people liking different wine styles than I do! All part of the diversity.

(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 48
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 11:19:05 AM   
fingers

 

Posts: 748
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: NiklasW

All part of the diversity.



Amen, Nik.  It's all my fault for liking nearly everything I drink! 


But I have an idea for another experiment.  A study of non-wine and occasional wine drinkers with two, properly prepared and served, wines.  Say, a Leoville Barton vs. Enchanted Path.  Just on overall impression of the group, who would win?  And if we are to defend the Old World should the Mollydooker win, what would the basis be?

(Hummm,  I picked two wines I own.  Guess who's going to do that experiment?) 

< Message edited by fingers -- 10/6/2008 11:28:56 AM >

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 49
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 11:26:14 AM   
cgrimes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

Then this factor would be true of all Parker scored wines.  We don't have that data, either.

I tend to think that vast majority are simply scoring to their own tastes (don't you?) and therefore it can be concluded that most drinkers enjoy it.  You'd have to be a pretty sorry dolt (and I'm not saying they're not out there) to drink a wine that you don't like and say, "Well it must be good because someone else says so".  We deserve more credit than that and I have favorite authors that both pump and pan MD.  In fact, I have both loved and loathed The Boxer myself and don't know if it was bottle variation, decanting, or 3 months cellar time that made the difference.  I do think the juice is volatile and can change dramatically with time, temperature, and air as many wines do.  I would also tend to think that people are more influenced over price paid than RP scores and that could influence score (well I paid a lot, it must be good!)


OK I'll give you that people are using their own taste buds, but it is very difficult to use scores from an overhyped Parker wine...Honestly, I don't think people would much care about the Boxer if it had had a modest rating from Parker--it would have just been one of those many overextracted Aussie Shirazes.  Those who like that sort of wine would think it was a bit better than Parker's rating and score it accordingly as well as vice versa.  I don't care what anybody says,  THIS IS NOT A 95 POINT WINE.  C'mon Bob, like it or not, a wine like this does not merit a classic score--and I know you've had some true classics in your lifetime.

(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 50
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 11:42:05 AM   
fingers

 

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From: Santa Ana, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cgrimes

THIS IS NOT A 95 POINT WINE. 



Had no idea!  Exactly why we've learned to ignore RP.  WTFWHThinking?

I suppose my initial tick came after I noticed that one of our friends here had not a TN about MD but was perhaps influenced by "APS" - Anti-Parker Syndrome.  A common condition that exists amongst wine drinkers that possess a gifted palate and strong will-of-mind.  It can be exacerbated by negative media publicity and deragotory popular opinion.  You should know about this, Doc.     The cure may be the experiment that mentioned before.

(in reply to cgrimes)
Post #: 51
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 12:26:47 PM   
cgrimes

 

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From: Massachusetts
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

quote:

ORIGINAL: cgrimes

THIS IS NOT A 95 POINT WINE. 



Had no idea!  Exactly why we've learned to ignore RP.  WTFWHThinking?

I suppose my initial tick came after I noticed that one of our friends here had not a TN about MD but was perhaps influenced by "APS" - Anti-Parker Syndrome.  A common condition that exists amongst wine drinkers that possess a gifted palate and strong will-of-mind.  It can be exacerbated by negative media publicity and deragotory popular opinion.  You should know about this, Doc.     The cure may be the experiment that mentioned before.



I should qualify that it was the 2005 Boxer that I tried (see my TN, you'll laugh) and that was rated 95 by RP.  I did a quick check (no data on 2007).  The 2006 was 94 (reviewed by Jay Miller). 

I brought the 2005 to a tasting precicely to spark conversation on 1) why we rely on others to judge our tastes and buying habits, 2) why we bother to score wines, and 3) there must be some objective qualities that constitute all great wines.  My problem with that wine was that (even after acknowledging it not to be my style) I could not find ANY redeeming qualities that would qualify it as classic.  

Others at the tasting?....they either loved it or hated it....go figure


(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 52
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 12:48:48 PM   
Maestro

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers
Maestro, have you ever tried any Mollydooker?  (no TN's in CT) 


I usually only write TNs for wines consumed from my cellar or in special occasions. I have indeed tasted Mollydooker bottlings many times over the years (otherwise I'd have no reason to suggest the Switcheroo, would I?) and they really don't agree with me. Hence, when I read about the "Mollydooker Shake" in this thread (which I had never heard of before) I though I'd contribute my own method for improving the contents of those bottles.

(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 53
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 12:52:36 PM   
rjonas

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 11/5/2006
From: Newcastle, WA
Status: offline 		Hmmm.. Now I'm intrigued.. I bought a few bottles of the '06 Boxer late last year, mainly due to all the hype... I figured it was a relatively cheap investment for a trial....

Haven't touched them since and have never had any Mollydooker wine ever, so with all the passionate responses around the Boxer, I'm finding I want to pull a bottle out and try it...

FWIW, there are over 3000 bottles of the '06 inventoried in CT with users averaging scores between 87-91.  Apparently there is a WA and WS score as well but haven't checked those notes.



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Post #: 54
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 1:05:42 PM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 2093
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		I'm feeling positively left out: never bought MD, never seen MD and certainly never shook her!
Do I look out for her?
L.

(in reply to rjonas)
Post #: 55
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 1:52:07 PM   
Maestro

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

I'm feeling positively left out: never bought MD, never seen MD and certainly never shook her!
Do I look out for her?
L.


With your vast collection of Bordeaux, you can certainly perform the Mollydooker Switcheroo procedeure masterfully...

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 56
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 6:35:39 PM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 218
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester, Virginia
Status: offline 		Dear All,

This thead has been one of the best I have had the pleasure to read. My hat is off to the collective for its wit and sense of adventure and curiosity. At the risk of lowering the average of the contributions, I will note that the shake method is (apparently) quite popular in California, where it is sometimes referred to as the "shake that ****" procedure (my apologies to the censors). I say "apparently" because I have not witnessed this procedure directly, but I have been told this by people who have no reason to make something like that up.

Regardless, it just does not seem right.

Respectfully,

John


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Post #: 57
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/6/2008 8:39:27 PM   
Paul S

 

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From: Singapore
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NiklasW

quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

I think you're right about Boxer, it seems to inspire the most vitriol.  But, still with 314 CT notes it scores 89.9. ... And still, how do we explain the high scores?  Are these all 2BC drinkers?  Pavie fans?



Maybe Eric's recent posting saying that 80% of the traffic on CT is still from North America explains some of this? Big fruit is pop in NA? (woops, quick, dive into the trenches!)



Wow, 12 hours away from the forum and this thread has just about exploded.

You know Niklas, I suspect your guess has more than a pinch of truth in there. I have often wondered why there are so very, very few Burgundy wines amongst the top wines rated on CT.

No DRC, Leory, Jayer. Coche-Dury, Lafon, Vogue etc.. No La Romanee Conti, La Tache, Musigny, Le Montrachet or Chambertin either. Enough to make a Burgundy fan cry! Perhaps the mass American market still has not gotten their palates around Burgundy yet?

< Message edited by Paul S -- 10/6/2008 8:40:34 PM >

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 58
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/7/2008 2:17:57 AM   
Wrighty

 

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From: Hong Kong
Status: offline 		Paul,

Even outside North America Burgundy is a little specialist isn't it?  And from my limited knowledge, they're some special wines you've listed.  I know I can go out and buy a Lafite or even Petrus from a selection of years in most cities but would be hard pressed to find some of those listed from any year I guess. 

Wrighty

(in reply to Paul S)
Post #: 59
RE: Aeration in bottle -- does anyone actually know and... - 10/7/2008 2:53:45 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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From: Arabia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maestro


quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

I'm feeling positively left out: never bought MD, never seen MD and certainly never shook her!
Do I look out for her?
L.


With your vast collection of Bordeaux, you can certainly perform the Mollydooker Switcheroo procedeure masterfully...


The exact opposite I'm afraid: they are all treated with kid gloves.
I might shake my Jump Stump when I next get it out.
L.

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 60
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