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German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/13/2009 12:57:54 PM   
pjaines

 

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Everyone,

I come before you naked in the name of ignorance, but engorged with the will of learning.

The more I drink German wines (mainly whites) the more I am blown away with them.

However, while my ignorance is useful in curtailing my spending on these wines I find myself needing to know more - and thus once armed with a modicum of knowledge (a little knowledge is dangerous, as they say) I can thus wazz more money up the wall on unecessary wine purchases.

I understand absolutely nothing about them - I even thought Auslese meant sweet, but then I see Trocken Auslese which in my eyes means 'dry sweet'. I'm lost. I need help.

I've done the usual google/wikipedia search thing but I thought I would ask here for a nice simple 5 minute summary of what I need to know.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/13/2009 3:00:42 PM   
Bryan Collins

 

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Everything that matters is riesling.  Ok, there are a few really good dessert wines made from like likes of scheurebe or even huxelrebe, but riesling is where we're at.  Don't even go there with the pinot noir thing (some Germans sure to disagree...)

"Basic" wine is often labelled QbA - Qualitatswein bestimmter Anbaugebiete - this'll be cheap but from good growers it can be very tasty.  Think basic Bourgogne from a good Burgundy producer, or a Cotes du Rhone from someone who also makes Chateauneuf or Hermitage.

The real stuff is (or used to be) called QmP - Qualitatswein mit Pradikat.  Now it's just called Pradikatswein.  Within Pradikatswein, there are five levels.  In increasing level of sugar in the base juice, these are Kabinett, Spatlese, Auslese, Beerenauslese and Trockenbeerenauslese.  Typically, all of these will be somewhat sweet, from off-dry Kabinetts to full-on dessert wines for the BAs and TBAs.  None of these wines will be dry unless they are desigated "trocken" (meaning dry).  Kabinetts and Spatlesen can be so designated.  Auslesen trockens can sometimes be seen too, but less commonly.  BAs and TBAs are always sweet.  Don't let the "trocken" in Trockenbeerenauslese confuse you - this just means the grapes themselves were dry, ie dried out from noble rot.  These are intensely sweet.

The very best dry wines, in the last couple of years, have been labelled Grosses Gewachs (or Erstes Gewachs in the Rheingau).  These are wines from top vineyards with sugar levels equivalent to at least Spatlesen but more usually Auslesen, but where the sugar is fully fermented to alcohol (or as fully as possible).  Thus the wines are both dry, and higher in alcohol than typical for German wines.  Somewhat similar in concept to Austrian "Smaragd" wines from the Wachau.

Then you've got Eisweins - very late harvested grapes (around Christmas, often) where concentration is achieved by freezing the water within the grapes while they are still on the vine (compare with noble rot, where concentration is achieved by botrytis cinerea mould which dessicates the grapes).  Eisweins tend to be very pure with little or no botrytis character, whereas BAs and TBAs are usually botrytised and show the honey and marmalade characters you would expect.

There are other confusions.  Most famously, traditional sweet Auslese wines (ie not Grosses Gewachs, or what used to be called trockens).  In the old days, there was considerable subdivision within the Auslese category, so a grower could differentiate between the great wines and the merely good.  Auslese used to be graded, from low to high, as feine, feinste and hochfeine - these terms weren't officially defined and were up to the winery to use.  They've long since been banned, but many wineries didn't like not being able to differentiate between their Auslesen - so they started using a gold capsule for their best wines.  These came to be known as Goldkapsel wines, although nothing on the label gave them away.  Some producers even make both Goldkapsel (GK) wines ang Langgoldkapsel (LGK) wines - the latter being their very best Auslesen, with, you guessed it, a long gold capsule. JJ Prum, for example, makes it easier to tell which is which by putting a white stripe on the capsule of his GK wines and two white stripes on his LGK wines.  These are monumental and magnificent.  If you ever get any, open them with me around.

There's lots more to it, but I need my bed now, as Alexandra has decided to sleep at last.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/13/2009 3:13:32 PM   
deb293

 

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I can't emphasize enough the course the Germans have devised to cure you of all your "ignorance."  http://www.deutscheweine.de/icc/Internet-EN/nav/796/79620c41-2768-a401-be59-26461d7937aa

This is the best kept wine secret on the planet and one of the best wine vacations you may ever take.  One week, meals and hotels included, and about 150 wines tasted.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/13/2009 3:45:57 PM   
Serge Birbrair

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

Everyone,

I come before you naked


This thread is useless without pictures.


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tsk....

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 1:56:36 AM   
treetops

 

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Egon Muller
JJ Prum
Fritz Haag
Willi Scheaffer
Maximin Grunhaus
Donnhof
Zilliken
Schloss Saarstein
Karthauserhof
Reinhold Haart
Keller
Van Voxlem
Robert Weil
Le Gallais (Egon Muller)
Leitz
Gunderloch

These are the names, buy the wines, taste and learn  

And a very basic website.......

http://germanwinesociety.org/

Get going.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 2:05:49 AM   
Bryan Collins

 

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Great list! I might delete Leitz and add Schloss Lieser, but that's nitpicking.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 2:16:27 AM   
treetops

 

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Thanks  Fair comment on Leitz/Schloss Lieser.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 6:40:48 AM   
SteveG

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treetops

Egon Muller
JJ Prum
Fritz Haag
Willi Scheaffer
Maximin Grunhaus
Donnhof
Zilliken
Schloss Saarstein
Karthauserhof
Reinhold Haart
Keller
Van Voxlem
Robert Weil
Le Gallais (Egon Muller)
Leitz
Gunderloch

These are the names, buy the wines, taste and learn  

And a very basic website.......

http://germanwinesociety.org/

Get going.


i must be old, is Dr. Thanisch no longer highly regarded?

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 7:26:47 AM   
pjaines

 

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Bryan - thanks for that - exactly what I was looking for. Somehow I was expecting you to deliver the goods on this one.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 7:29:33 AM   
pjaines

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Serge Birbrair

quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

Everyone,

I come before you naked


This thread is useless without pictures.




I thought you would have focused on the word 'engorged' rather than 'naked'.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 7:33:19 AM   
J2K

 

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ob2s is huge on German wines also, even buys German cars. Here is his website http://germanwines.us

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 7:49:41 AM   
treetops

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: J2K

ob2s is huge on German wines also, even buys German cars. Here is his website http://germanwines.us



I second that.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 7:53:19 AM   
treetops

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveG

i must be old, is Dr. Thanisch no longer highly regarded?



Took a long time dip like Johannishof and Vollrads but slowly coming back.

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Post #: 13
RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 8:14:20 AM   
SteveG

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treetops

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveG

i must be old, is Dr. Thanisch no longer highly regarded?



Took a long time dip like Johannishof and Vollrads but slowly coming back.


thanks, i guess this is what i should have expected.

(in reply to treetops)
Post #: 14
RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 9:14:54 AM   
treetops

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveG

quote:

ORIGINAL: treetops

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveG

i must be old, is Dr. Thanisch no longer highly regarded?



Took a long time dip like Johannishof and Vollrads but slowly coming back.


thanks, i guess this is what i should have expected.



Just the way it is. Happily these three truly great domains are getting their act together again. I only wished they'd be a little more realistic about their prices.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 11:04:16 AM   
JohnNezlek

 

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Paul,

In addition to the thorough (and useful to me) posts and recommendations about specific wines and types of wines, I will add that Riesling is at its best (to me) when it has a few years on it. By a few, I mean more like Bordeaux (esp. Sauternes), something in the range of 10+, or even more. Certainly, most Rieslings can be consumed young, although for my palate, the older they have been the better. One writer (I think it is Hugh Johnson) does not set "drinking windows" for Riesling because it is a wine that can be enjoyed (in different ways) at different points in its life. In the last year or so, I have had a few bottles from the 70s that were just splendid, even though the specific winemaker was not particularly well regarded. I have also had a few from the early 90s that were a joy.

If you can find some older Rieslings (perhaps at auction or by chance in a shop), I recommend giving them a try. They do not have to be pricey, but they can be very interesting -- and a real surprise for people who are unfamiliar with that type of wine.

Cheers,

John


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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 1:00:16 PM   
pjaines

 

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John - thanks - good advice. Funnily enough I am drinking right now a 1993 Riesling Kabinett that I bought for £4 a bottle - fantastic stuff with that fantastic aged nose and palate. The wine was half price, but even at £8 it would have been fantastic value.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/14/2009 8:56:21 PM   
ob2s

 

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then there is this website in my signature......
here is a simple beginner's rule of thumb. under 9% alcohol is going to be sweet for the most part. 9-12ish% has some resid sugar in it but is a bit more dry, over 12 is going to be pretty dry tasting. There is still a plethora of cheap german sweetie plonk out there, check here on CT before you think something is a great deal at the local Tesco... if you have a local wine shop that has an online presence , then let us know what it is and we can pick some crackers for you. my picks come with a money back guarantee.....next time I'm in London that is



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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/16/2009 6:09:35 AM   
stevetimko

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bryan Collins

Everything that matters is riesling.  Ok, there are a few really good dessert wines made from like likes of scheurebe or even huxelrebe, but riesling is where we're at.  Don't even go there with the pinot noir thing (some Germans sure to disagree...)


The best of what's available in this country is riesling Hard to find, especially at a good price, is Franken Silvaner, which many Germans consider the best German white. They have no problem selling the stuff in Germany. In fact, after reading discussions on other boards and talking to a couple of importers, sweeter German wines are a harder sell in Germany. They like the dry stuff.
Franken wine traditionally comes in a bocksbeutel, which means goat scrotum in German, by the way.


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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/16/2009 6:16:10 AM   
Bryan Collins

 

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Yeah, I didn't cover Franconia.  I do have some - mainly Hans Wirscher's Iphofer Julius-Echter-Berg, both riesling and sylvaner.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/16/2009 7:07:27 AM   
Wrighty

 

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Have had a couple or two on my annual pilgrimage to Nurnberg, guess I've been on the wrong wines though as nothing touches the Rieslings mentioned previous. Will have to try and remember Bryan's recommendation for 9 more months and look out for it in the local Kauphof

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/16/2009 8:16:01 AM   
wadcorp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stevetimko



Jeez, there's a bottle that would screw up one's racking system…

.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 6/16/2009 8:46:26 AM   
Hollowine

 

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I very much enjoyed reading this thread and getting the input from Bryan, thanks greatly.

I'll offer up another interesting read I came upon whilst searching for some German wines a while back, if you have some time to kill there is some good info in here.

Terry Theise Germany Selections 2009

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 12/30/2009 9:36:36 AM   
pheck

 

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As a German I can recommend to look at the so called VDP vineyards - VDP stands for "Verband Deutscher Prädikatsweingüter". The VDP is an association dedicated to produce high quality wines. As a producer, you can't claim to become a member of the VDP, the VDP is selecting new members based on the quality of the wines. There are some limitations, the members have to follow (such like that no more then 50 hectoliter per hectare wine must be produced).

In general, the quality of wines from VDP producers are outstanding!

For more information, visit the English website of the VDP: http://www.vdp.de/en/vdp-praedikat-wine-estates/

I wish you all the best for 2010!

Peter (from Rüsselsheim, near Frankfurt - or for those more familiar with wine regions: Near the Rheingau)

P.S. By the way, some other German vineyards to mention are:

BÜRGERSPITAL ZUM HL. GEIST
Dr. Crusius
Schlossgut Diel
Weingut Knipser
Weingut Künstler
GUTSVERWALTUNG NIEDERHAUSEN-SCHLOSSBÖCKELHEIM
ÖKONOMIERAT REBHOLZ (My favourite one)
Weingut Robert Weil



< Message edited by pheck -- 12/30/2009 9:45:25 AM >

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 12/30/2009 9:43:25 AM   
wadcorp

 

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Peter / pheck: Welcome to the Forum!

Hope you stick around.

.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 12/30/2009 10:22:29 AM   
nwinther

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bryan Collins

"Basic" wine is often labelled QbA - Qualitatswein bestimmter Anbaugebiete - this'll be cheap but from good growers it can be very tasty.  Think basic Bourgogne from a good Burgundy producer, or a Cotes du Rhone from someone who also makes Chateauneuf or Hermitage.


I think that today, QbA is simply called Qualitetswein - if it doesn't say anything about "Kabiett", "Spätlese" etc. it's a Qualitetswein i.e. a "non-quality wine" (ambiguity - what would bureaucracy be withour it?).

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 12/30/2009 10:59:06 AM   
RobRah

 

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Ah Franken wines...... just when I got to grips with Rhineland, I realised Franken was even more confusing to me (though what I have tried in and arond Wurzburg has impressed me aplenty).

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 12/30/2009 1:17:30 PM   
Eric

 

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There is so much that is incredible. But my desert island wine is Donhoff followed shortly thereafter by Willi Schaefer. Unreal.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 12/30/2009 2:04:55 PM   
pjaines

 

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Peter - welcome - you are (I think) our first German on the forum.  Your insights and knowledge will be much appreciated.

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RE: German wines - an idiots guide someone please - 12/30/2009 2:20:22 PM   
pheck

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

Peter - welcome - you are (I think) our first German on the forum.  Your insights and knowledge will be much appreciated.


Looking at the forum user list, there are at least 4 other users from Germany registered - but maybe they are not actively participating ...

Well, I'm quite experienced in German wines, but given the number of wine regions and producers here, I only know a small part of them. But nevertheless, I will be able to do some investigation more easily on questions coming up.

As I have a quite busy job, I will not find too much time to closely monitor the forum entries, but I will check my PM regularly - so feel free to give me a notice if you think that I could help on a special post.






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