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Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/29/2010 1:26:13 PM   
Khamen

 

Posts: 5543
Joined: 3/31/2009
From: near Stonehenge, UK
Status: offline 		http://www.decanter.com/news/wine-news/505082/lafite-prices-spiral-at-record-sotheby-s-hong-kong-auction

Make them stop and make them stop now. This is not sustainable and has knock-on implications for the whole wine world

K

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/29/2010 1:31:08 PM   
RobRah

 

Posts: 825
Joined: 4/2/2009
From: London, UK
Status: offline 		The cynic notes this, but still, why are they paying these prices?

< Message edited by RobRah -- 10/29/2010 1:34:12 PM >

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/29/2010 1:37:04 PM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 1191
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester. VA
Status: offline 		Dear K et al.,

I am not certain that the price of 1869 Lafite affects the price of an '05 du Tertre, a bottle that should certainly be decent, as an example. Admittedly, rising prices in any segment of the market can put upward pressure on prices in other segments.

I guess the only real solution is to stop buying Chinese products. No money, no crazy bidding.

J.


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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/29/2010 1:38:24 PM   
khmark7

 

Posts: 11405
Joined: 7/6/2008
From: Chicago suburbs
Status: offline 		Not a mad world at all, just the chinese mentality regarding those wines, and while good wines, not at those prices!....just stoopid.  I'm curious to see how long this madness will continue.

I have a 2001 Carruades Lafite....the first person to give me $500 and it's yours!

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/29/2010 1:40:39 PM   
RobRah

 

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From: London, UK
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quote:

I am not certain that the price of 1869 Lafite affects the price of an '05 du Tertre...


However.....

quote:


  • Two cases of 2009, which will be bottled next year (estimated at $10,000-15,000 each), fetched $68,632.
  • Five cases of 2005 (each $12,000-18,000) each brought $37,435.
  • One 2000 case ($20,000-30,000) brought $71,751; two more of the same brought $62,392 each.
  • Two 1986 cases ($12,000-18,000 each) went for $65,512.
  • An imperial (six-liter bottle) of 1982 ($25,000-55,000) found $148,182.
  • Two regular cases of 1982 ($35,000-65,000 each) each brought $132,584.
  • Six bottles of 1961 ($4,000-6,000) sold for $62,392.
  • A 1959 jeroboam (five-liter bottle, estimated at $30,000-50,000), found $171,579.
  • Three bottles of the 1949 ($5,000-8,000) got $53,034.
  • Two 1945 bottles ($5,000-10,000) brought $49,914.
  • A lone bottle of 1929 ($2,000-3,000) found $34,316.


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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/29/2010 1:59:15 PM   
bretrooks

 

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From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		Yikes...that lone bottle of 1929 Lafite went for several times what I've spent on wine over my entire wine-buying lifetime (which, admittedly, has only been a handful of years).  Hope it's good.


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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/29/2010 2:48:24 PM   
Khamen

 

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From: near Stonehenge, UK
Status: offline 		Folks please - a 2000 (i.e. not particularly rare) Lafite fetching $71k????? That's just not right at all. Around here that will net you around 10 cases of fully mature Margaux 1989 (100pt WS).

We are talking about a consumable here, not a permanent art installation.

K

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/29/2010 2:56:20 PM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 2014
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Glad I like Languedoc wines 

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/29/2010 3:36:33 PM   
Hollowine

 

Posts: 7247
Joined: 7/25/2008
From: Hood River, OR
Status: offline 		The premise of the cellar direct auction lots of rare vintages from Lafite being sold specifically in China, in addition to the post from RobRah showing their decision to brand the 2008 vintage with the Chinese character for Eight (which IIRC is a lucky number in Chinese lore) screams one word to me...SELLOUT!

What pretentious F***s that they can get so snobish about Americans visiting their country and not speaking French, yet they bend over and spread for the Chinese with a smile on their face. I'm sorry, I'm probably over the line but they are a bunch of Wh*res. I understand Capitalism and good for them to turn on the money printing machine if that is what they want to forever be known for, but the foxy girl that puts out in High School doesn't stay desirable forever but the reputation follows her the rest of her life.

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/29/2010 3:56:42 PM   
khmark7

 

Posts: 11405
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From: Chicago suburbs
Status: offline 		Yes, and the capitalist way of doing things for the 2010 vintage would be that Lafite produces 3 times the normal volume of 1st growths (while sacrificing quality) and sells all the overpriced wines to China.  Don't expect any press release of that one, but it will happen.  Why focus on reduced yields and small volume quality when people are paying way way way over market share for the wines?   Clearly they are more interested in $$$$$.

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/30/2010 12:56:05 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

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Status: offline 		I find it all rather amusing.
We all know the wines aren't actually that much better than numerous alternatives around the world and certainly aren't worth the prices being paid.
It's a bit like the Ferrari you wanted being sold out, don't mourn, buy another supercar, or next years Ferrari, or better still an older one; or get a Porsche - they're cheaper and better.
I guess I can be philosophical as I have a fair chunk of claret in my cellar, but when I can sell at these prices I may be even more tempted to discover the wonderful reds of California, Chile, Australia, Italy, Spain, Argentina ..........
L.

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/30/2010 6:09:11 AM   
Ibetian

 

Posts: 3555
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From: Sarasota, FL and the Berkshires
Status: offline 		I love Lafite. Sharing the double mag of the 1979 with friends and family at our 25th anniversary party was the best wine experience of my life. The 1982 at Christmas dinner some years ago might have been the best wine I've ever drunk. I have quite a bit of Lafite in my cellar. If it's a bubble and prices collapse, I'll happily drink it. If prices stay where they are or escalate, I'll switch to Latour and make the Lafite a source of retirement income. Either way is fine with me.

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/30/2010 11:09:59 AM   
nwinther

 

Posts: 927
Joined: 7/28/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		More power to them. I've cut out Lafite (and 1er cru in general) from my perspective a long time ago.

The main problem, as I see it, will not be over-production etc, but forged wines. With the posibility of selling thousand-dollar bottles to witless chineese billionaries, swindling will explode.

And as with everything else, there is limit to how far these things will go - although I thought we'd reached that limit already. Seems we haven't. But sooner or later, the prices must come down. Conneseurs are running away from 1er crus as they aren't really interesting anymore (QPR is just ridiculous) for serious collectors/drinkers (i.e. me! - I'm the epitome of seriousness, just so you know.). When his Bobness retires or crokes, the game will likely change. Meanwhile, other producers have long since reached fame and fortune (I hope) and 1er crus will meet some serious competition, and will have to consider prices as well.

Wishful thinking... I know...

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/30/2010 11:25:15 AM   
Khamen

 

Posts: 5543
Joined: 3/31/2009
From: near Stonehenge, UK
Status: offline 		Problem is I happen to love a number of these wines and try to pick them up on a regular basis. I can live without Lafite but if the phenomenon spreads to Ch Margaux (imo a better wine in most vintages) I am going to be either a sad bunny or a bankrupt...

K

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/30/2010 10:36:41 PM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 7118
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From: Arabia
Status: offline 		Now how do I get the Chinese to fall in love with the cute little pictures on my Mouton Rothschilds?
Got lots more of them than Lafite, and even less Margaux.
L.

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/31/2010 10:21:46 AM   
wallstreet

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/27/2008
From: Florida
Status: offline 		I think if we understand the Chinese mentality, it would be easier to understand why they pay way over market value. It is ALL ABOUT FACE.  It is about bragging rights.  They bid big in front of their friends and show that they have the balls to pay big dollars,  they then look at their friend across the room and smile......to see if their friend has a big enough bank roll to top him. It gets to the point where it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the wine, but the right to brag that they outbid all others. This is the explanation behind those outrageously high hammer prices.

I have dealt in some circles where Chinese investors are involved. For them, being mostly NEW money, its all about showing off to their friends and business associates. For them, they would never serve or provide as a gift a "second rate" wine (in their eyes it is second rate, the rest of us would trip over ourselves to drink that wine).  It is truly unbelievable.  First off, they can actually PRONOUNCE   LAFITE.  Second , the reputation in China is that it is the BEST wine anywhere.

Most Chinese wine buyers couldn't tell the difference between Lafite and say Margaux, Talbot, Ducru, or Crapster Wine from Bordeaux.. Their palettes are not that sophisticated.  They would rather buy a crap vintage of Lafite vs. say....a top vintage Mouton or Margaux.  It is all about showing off for their friends and business guests as well as saving face in order not to be viewed as a cheapskate.  Especially when it comes to giving a gift. A Chinese businessman would NEVER give a gift, other than a first growth wine, and more specifically Lafite if they want to give them the "BEST". Lafite's second wine does very well, only because it has the name Lafite in the name, it is rather comical in all honesty.

I think most of them are moron's who truly do not understand the nuances of these fine wines and buy purely for the brand (same way some folks buy clothing.....they buy the brand, not the quality of the product).

They will learn eventually. But it will take a long time. Just like it took awhile for futures to gain any traction in China. It is all about instant gratification in China. There is more infanticide of young wines in China than anywhere else. They simply do not care, nor are they sophisticated enough. Is this a wholesale statement about all wine drinkers in China? Of course not. There most likely is a very small segment of the wine buying public who truly understand and can appreciate these fine wines. But the majority of them, have absolutely ZERO clue.


As for Lafite selling out.  Absolutely they are.  But partially, I cannot blame them. If I had a bunch of moronic buyers who are willing to pay WAY over the market value for my product. I would sell it to them in a New York minute. It is the capitalistic way.  Personally, I will never buy a bottle of Lafite.  It is just ONE bottle of wine to me, there are 1000's of others I can easily enjoy just as much. I realized a long time ago, I will never chase that "elusive" bottle. There is just too much great wine available for purchase.




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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/31/2010 10:59:09 AM   
Hollowine

 

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Status: offline 		Wallstreet, spot on and accurate in all accounts.

My only issues here at all have nothing to do with the Capitalism of Lafite (Cellar Direct auction in that market makes total business sense if they are ok no longer having the inventory in the Chateau caves) nor about the Chinese or their ability to afford, appreciate, or understand the wine; they are novices to the wine scene, it won't last forever.

My sole issues are the changing of an iconoclastic brand that has withstood centuries with wars, depressions, and other challenges, only to have them "Re-Brand" their bottle for a single market that none of the rest of the wine appreciating world takes seriously (Knowledge and palate wise) and the general prejudice of many French against foreign influence/culture which apparently can be quieted for the right price.

< Message edited by Hollowine -- 10/31/2010 11:02:25 AM >

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/31/2010 12:22:32 PM   
wallstreet

 

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From: Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hollowine

Wallstreet, spot on and accurate in all accounts.

My only issues here at all have nothing to do with the Capitalism of Lafite (Cellar Direct auction in that market makes total business sense if they are ok no longer having the inventory in the Chateau caves) nor about the Chinese or their ability to afford, appreciate, or understand the wine; they are novices to the wine scene, it won't last forever.

My sole issues are the changing of an iconoclastic brand that has withstood centuries with wars, depressions, and other challenges, only to have them "Re-Brand" their bottle for a single market that none of the rest of the wine appreciating world takes seriously (Knowledge and palate wise) and the general prejudice of many French against foreign influence/culture which apparently can be quieted for the right price.


A simple explanation from a business perspective :)     It is just my opinion of course.

It is ALL about the MONEY. They probably know that this might not last in the future, so they are taking short term gains simply because of the opportunity presents itself. A little French arrogance thrown in and there you have it.  They figure, if the brand "cools" in China for whatever reason, at least they had the forethought to take advantage of the financial opportunity while it lasts. They also figure their brand outlived many a dynasty, wars, occupations, etc. This is a drop in the bucket to them. They will survive if this bubble bursts, but to not take full advantage of the situation, well, I hate to say it, would be a bad business decision on their part.   I fully expect a record number of Lafite bottlings with the Chinese symbol (I think it means good luck) to appear and the symbol was specifically selected because it has the most profound meaning when providing a business gift in China.  Quality depreciation of the wine is a strong possibility.

And the folks at Lafite are laughing all the way to the bank.


< Message edited by wallstreet -- 10/31/2010 12:24:43 PM >

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/31/2010 3:17:23 PM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 10664
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: offline 		I am in the process of selling 12 bottles of Carruades de Lafite (the 2nd wine). If some muppet is willing to spend the silly money to buy them, then I am happy to sell. Both people are happy - at least until they open the bottle. I have been lucky enough to have Lafite on 3-4 occasions and whilst it is nice enough, it is not THAT nice. No wine is. I'm gonna take my $5k and buy some decent wine. Or pay for the loft-extension. This is capitalism and fashion in action and unison, a heady and dizzy combination with no rhyme nor reason.

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/31/2010 4:11:04 PM   
wineismylife

 

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From: Arlington, TX
Status: offline 		pj, I sent my case of 2000 in OWC to auction a few weeks ago.  It goes on the block the first or second week of December.  I'll report back.


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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/31/2010 6:36:29 PM   
Paul S

 

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Status: offline 		As long as they keep away from Burgundy and Riesling...

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/31/2010 6:42:26 PM   
treetops

 

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From: England, UK
Status: offline 		I'm certain there are many industrious folk out there creating bottles/cases of Lafite just destined for the Chinese mainland.

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 10/31/2010 9:57:57 PM   
ytsai

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treetops

I'm certain there are many industrious folk out there creating bottles/cases of Lafite just destined for the Chinese mainland.


When prestine 1982 Lafites are readily available at airport duty free shops it makes one wonder....

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 11/1/2010 7:44:49 AM   
RobRah

 

Posts: 825
Joined: 4/2/2009
From: London, UK
Status: offline 		On a related note:

Yquem: China's next big thing?

Rob.

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 11/1/2010 12:01:03 PM   
Khamen

 

Posts: 5543
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From: near Stonehenge, UK
Status: offline 		Well I'm glad my 24 halves of the 2001 Yquem are safely tucked up - prices seem to have gone up by about 20% in the last year or so, although wish I had picked these up EP or when Bryan did

K

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 11/1/2010 12:29:11 PM   
Bryan Collins

 

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Wish I'd been buying Lafite and Carruades for the last ten years. I would now be retiring.

I must admit, my greedy side is hoping that China goes bananas for, say, Leflaive, or Prum, or Chave. I could live without my stocks of any one producer in exchange for not having a mortgage!

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 11/1/2010 12:31:56 PM   
Bryan Collins

 

Posts: 2355
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From: Bedfordshire, UK
Status: offline 		Oh, and if I was looking to invest in anything right now, middling vintages of Yquem would be what I'd pick. But I'm not, because a new house, a newish daughter, and another one due in March mean I can't prudently afford to speculate. Hope I don't look back at this post in three years and want to beat myself over the head with a baseball bat for being such a pussy...

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Post #: 27
RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 11/1/2010 12:39:15 PM   
RobRah

 

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From: London, UK
Status: offline 		I wonder what Dee-Qem means in Cantonese or Mandarin.

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 11/1/2010 2:32:05 PM   
treetops

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bryan Collins

, and another one due in March mean I can't prudently afford to speculate.



Blimey! You've been busy. Telly on the blink?

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RE: Mad mad mad mad mad mad World - 11/1/2010 2:40:00 PM   
Bryan Collins

 

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Status: offline 		Catholic wife. Nothing I can do about it. She's more fertile than Watership Down.

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