Chateauneuf du pape & life span

CellarTracker Main Site

Chateauneuf du pape & life span

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Cellar Talk] >> General Discussion >> Chateauneuf du pape & life span

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Chateauneuf du pape & life span - 1/26/2008 6:13:02 PM

calibabe

Posts: 15
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline

I am developing an appreciation of this great Rhone wine. Picked up a lot of the 2005 vintage, but paid a lot. So, I dont want to commit infanticide. I did that with some barolo and it was a terrible waste. So, with CDP, when she I start dring these? Obviously, I want to hit them on the upside? The vinters are Domaine de Cristia and Chateau Beaucastel. From what I have read these are wines that can be aged up to 20-25 yrs. I dont want to wair till they are past their prime so i have picked up a few bottles and will open at say certain intervals like 5yrs 7yrs and 9yrs from vintage date. I figure that by 20yrs it would be fading a lot. anyway, what do you think? I would like to hear from longtime drinkers of CDP.

Post #: 1

RE: Chateauneuf du pape & life span - 1/26/2008 6:26:19 PM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

Chateauneuf du Pape (CNDP) is WONDERFUL stuff. Part of the appeal is that these are wines that drink well young, middle-aged AND old. Now of course it depends on the wine. Of all CNDP, I will caution that Beaucastel (one of my favorites) is one of the few to pretty much leave alone for 10+ years. It's higher Mourvedre content makes it a harder, more structured wine in its youth.

CNDP is not Bordeaux. A lot of these wines are best consumed in the first 10-12 years, maybe 15. Now Beaucastels can go for a LONG time, but they are exceptional. For example the 1979 and 1981 are drinking gloriously right now, and the 1989 and 1990 are still painfully young (and fantastic)!

One other caution: the early word on 2005 in particular is that is is an unusually structured vintage for CNDP. A lot of 2004's are a LOT cheaper and drinking a lot better right now. Anyway, these are glorious wines that pair surprisping well with a lot of food. Love 'em!

My favorites by far (many cases of each across many vintages):

Domaine du Pégaü
Château de Beaucastel
Clos des Papes

And others that I have 1-2 cases of:

Domaine Pierre Usseglio & Fils
Les Cailloux (Lucien et André Brunel)
Le Clos du Caillou
Château Rayas
Domaine Charvin
Le Vieux Donjon
Domaine de la Janasse
Bois de Boursan

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to calibabe)

Post #: 2

RE: Chateauneuf du pape & life span - 1/26/2008 6:30:52 PM

calibabe

Posts: 15
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline

Thank you for the detailed response. it was just what i was looking for.

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 3

RE: Chateauneuf du pape & life span - 1/26/2008 8:10:39 PM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

My pleasure. You inspired me to open a new one tonight, 2004 Clos des Brusquières Châteauneuf-du-Pape. A charming wine, very Grenachey. Not going to set the world on fire with complexity and depth but really tasty. Maybe 88-89 points. Might upgrade it as I finish more of the bottle...

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to calibabe)

Post #: 4

RE: Chateauneuf du pape & life span - 1/27/2008 9:54:40 AM

NiklasW

Posts: 2014
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline

Eric, do you have anymore insight into 2005 in CNDP? We have Domaine du Vieux Lazaret 2005 going for the same price as the 2004 (about 20 euros) here in Finland. It's no Beaucastel, but should I invest in a bit more than 2 bottles of this? Thanks for any info!

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 5

RE: Chateauneuf du pape & life span - 1/27/2008 1:16:30 PM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NiklasW

Eric, do you have anymore insight into 2005 in CNDP? We have Domaine du Vieux Lazaret 2005 going for the same price as the 2004 (about 20 euros) here in Finland. It's no Beaucastel, but should I invest in a bit more than 2 bottles of this? Thanks for any info!

This is an estate I have only had a few times albeit from other vintages. A simple enough wine on the bargain end of the CNDP spectrum. FWIW, Parker rates 2005 more highly but the description of 2004 is of a lighter, more easy-drinking wine. Both sound pretty appealing. The CellarTracker notes are similar.

My one experience was with the 1999, 2 bottles acquired for the cheap price of $12.45 each. Again, nice, easy, kirschey CNDP with good garrigue character. Not as deep, meaty or intense as some of my favorites but quite pleasant.

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to NiklasW)

Post #: 6

RE: Chateauneuf du pape & life span - 1/28/2008 8:16:07 AM

fingers

Posts: 8242
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline

Eric, does this infer that the typical "closed down" period, or "dumb phase" is not a factor with CNDP? Is it's devlopment in bottle more of a linear thing rather than being good young, great later, and lacking in-between? Alhtough I've resigned to not touch my '03-'05 Beaucastels, Donjons, and Telegraphes for 10+ years, it would be nice to know that I could open one in 5 or so and not be commiting a crime!
Thanks for the input

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 7

RE: Chateauneuf du pape & life span - 1/28/2008 8:22:46 AM

GalvezGuy

Posts: 5864
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: Galveston, TX
Status: offline

It has bene my experience that most CdPs do not go through a dumb phase, rather an evolutions from what is today to well aged and open for business. That is not to say they never go through a dumb phase, there are some that do. Again, for me, is has been something I have picked up by experience with producers. Now, I have CT to see if there is a dumb phase on a particular vintage/producer. I am sure Eric can help as he has consumed more of these that I will in a lifetime (love the Rhones but love Bordeaux more)

_____________________________

Burgundy makes you think of silly things; Bordeaux makes you talk about them; Champagne makes you do them.

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 8

RE: Chateauneuf du pape & life span - 1/28/2008 8:38:49 AM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

As compared to Bordeaux, there is basically no closed period for CNDP. That said, they do have open periods and sulky periods. As mentioned before, Beaucastel is one of the more structured ones and one to wait on. I'm not touching any of 2001-2005 Beau from my cellar, although the 2000 is gloriously open. I have not had a ton of Vieux Donjon, just a handful really, but it is reputed as a pretty traditional, sturdy CNDP that rewards time.

BTW, your assertion that I have consumed more of these than you will in a lifetime made me snort. I am still a pretty young (38) and recent (2000) collector. And I didn't really start to get into CNDP until 5 years ago. During that time I have consumed 138 CNDP from my cellar and posted 314 tasting notes (in many cases I have been to tastings with a dozen or two dozen ones where maybe only a bottle or two came from my cellar.) If I expand the search to Southern Rhone as a whole then I see 179 consumed and 376 tasting notes. Looks like I am opening 3-4 cases a year from the cellar from this region with more in recent years. So not quite one/week.

Anyway, I am sure you can outdo me if you try...

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to GalvezGuy)

Post #: 9

Please clue me in - 1/28/2008 10:39:01 AM

ParkHill

Posts: 167
Joined: 6/27/2007
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline

It seems that CNDP drinkers are as fanatic as Barolo or Burgundy or Bordeaux. Now I understand the Barolo thing, and wish I could afford the Bordeaux thing, and ONCE had a magical Burgundy, but...

I find a "sour" taste in all the CNDP I've tried. Not so much acidic; more like that rhubarb taste that makes your teeth itch. Now that I think about it, I get that sourness in a lot of Pinot.

I'm happy in Italy, but maybe a real CNDP lover could explain my lack of appreciation.

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 10

RE: Please clue me in - 1/28/2008 10:42:27 AM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

Nahh, we're not fanatic at all. These CNDP are just fun, wines of pleasure.

I do find a certain, unusual texture and "papery dryness" to CNDP. It doesn't make my teeth itch, but it is mouth drying. Grenache does have a certain flavor profile that turns some off. I know at first I wasn;t really sure if I loved or hated CNDP. Now I crave 'em...

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to ParkHill)

Post #: 11

RE: Please clue me in - 1/29/2008 3:55:06 AM

nettl

Posts: 62
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: Leicester, UK
Status: offline

For me: sample on bottling, again at five years - but expect most vintages to be at their best somewhere between 12-25 years.

Current hot properties: Clos des Papes (recently 15% alc..), Pegau, Charvin - rapidly rising prices alas largely because of huge popularity in the US.

Classic Vin de Garde: Beaucastel (great at best but some bottle variation/brett to be expected), Vieux Telegraphe, Vieux Donjon (these are not meant for early consumption - ie 1990 and 1995 just becoming approachable now but will be better in 5-10 years)

Plus 20-30 other great properties...

Recent Chateauneuf vintages:

1998 - supposedly great but mixed reports recently - hot and, at worst, a bit stewed - going through a difficult phase?
1999 - cooler vintage, more linear, fresher acidity, solid rather than exciting - some are still in a bit of an in-between state (ie Pegau). Good but need more time.
2000- singing now, big, lush, ripe and forward - these have never shut down and are THE wines to drink right now and for the next decade or so. Superb.
2001 - classic vintage - I think the best since 1989/1990. Still a bit stern and peppery if made in the old style (ie Vieux Telegraphe, Vieux Donjon) and liquer/kirsch-like if made in a modern style - drink the minor ones but leave the best for another 10 years. These should be great/outstanding at between 20-30 years old.
2002 - dreadful deluge at vintage time - light/dilute? not tried.
2003 - very very hot vintage - massive extraction levels in luxury cuvee - rave reviews for the best of them. The few more ordinary ones I've had have tasted dry and tannic or stewed and flat - need time before they can be properly assessed. Uncertain.
2004 - not tried: leaner and fresher - a bit like 1999?
2005 - not tried - some say the best classic, structured vintage since 1978 others, too tannic and four-square - a bit like 1995? I bought lots assuming somewhere in between...
2006 - not tried - lighter, frutier and more forward than 2005 - rave reviews at present in the British wine press - where higher acidity, lower extraction and freshness are valued - less enthusiasm in the US where big wines are more appreciated. Supposedly pretty wines for early/medium term consumption.
2007 - early rumours are of a good vintage - possibly great/better than 2005 or 2006. Who knows?

< Message edited by nettl -- 1/29/2008 3:57:18 AM >

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 12

RE: Chateauneuf du pape & life span - 1/29/2008 1:15:13 PM

GalvezGuy

Posts: 5864
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: Galveston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eric

BTW, your assertion that I have consumed more of these than you will in a lifetime made me snort. I am still a pretty young (38) and recent (2000) collector. And I didn't really start to get into CNDP until 5 years ago. During that time I have consumed 138 CNDP from my cellar and posted 314 tasting notes (in many cases I have been to tastings with a dozen or two dozen ones where maybe only a bottle or two came from my cellar.) If I expand the search to Southern Rhone as a whole then I see 179 consumed and 376 tasting notes. Looks like I am opening 3-4 cases a year from the cellar from this region with more in recent years. So not quite one/week.

Anyway, I am sure you can outdo me if you try...

I will have to make it point to try. Right now, I am just starting to figure CdP out. Actually got started on CdP because of some the CdR's I love. I drink a CdP may once a month and I just started buying them last year so have a long way to go. I have found that they can be truly elegant and silky and powerful all at the same time. Also, the top CdP producers are far better bargains than the top Bordeaux producers (IM not so HO). Ah.... so many bottles...so few days.

_____________________________

Burgundy makes you think of silly things; Bordeaux makes you talk about them; Champagne makes you do them.

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 13