CellarTracker Main Site
Register for Forum | Login | My Profile | Member List | Search

White grapes, Red Rhone

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Cellar Talk] >> General Discussion >> White grapes, Red Rhone Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
White grapes, Red Rhone - 8/31/2014 8:19:20 AM   
Johnnybeverage

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/31/2014
Status: offline
Hi everyone,
It's probably easy to see that I'm a newb here so first up I'd like to say a big hello to the regulars on this forum.
I have a question that's been bugging me for a while. White grapes, red Rhone. Everyone likes Cote Rotie. It costs a packet. Does anyone know of other producers in the Rhone that add a portion of Rousanne, Marsanne or Viognier into their red wine production? I know that St. Joseph AOC allows it but I've never come across a more value oriented bottle. Any hints?
Post #: 1
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 8/31/2014 8:43:11 AM   
mclancy10006

 

Posts: 4510
Joined: 3/19/2007
From: Cape Cod, MA & Bellevue, WA
Status: offline
Not easy to search for but they do exist. St. Joseph is a good bet and you can try this one its like $45.

https://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=1623536

This link is some detail from the importer which is not on CT. (CT shows this as Syrah and I bet its mostly Syrah so not really wrong either)
http://www.jolivin.com/facts/gonon/gonon.pdf

-Mark

(in reply to Johnnybeverage)
Post #: 2
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 8/31/2014 8:45:30 AM   
Johnnybeverage

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/31/2014
Status: offline
Great. Thanks for the swift reply. I'll be sure to try this one out. I only hope I'll be able to source it in Japan, where I live.

(in reply to mclancy10006)
Post #: 3
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 8/31/2014 8:53:02 AM   
champagneinhand

 

Posts: 10285
Joined: 5/30/2011
From: Upstate New York, California born.
Status: offline
almost all Cotes du Rhones blanc have a good portion of Viognier in Condrieu, then Marsanne, Roussanne followed by a bit of Cinsault and sometimes Clairette.. E. Guigal tries to keep it at 50% viognier, 20% each of Marsanne and Roussanne and the balance Cinsault and Clairette. Usually it retails for just a bit over 10 bucks. Chapoutier is quite similar and drinking the least expensive Blanc is common all over. No need for any big layout of money unless you want to age the wines, then Hermitage Blanc Marsanne with a bit of Rousanne. Ageable Viognier is also available and Marsanne from st, Joseph. In the areas of Cheateauneuf de Papes and Gigondas you will see much more use of Grenache Blanc or Grenache gris in the blends. Enjoy.

_____________________________

As I age my finger tips seem to be bigger, my iOS keyboard seems to be less kind, and my need for wearing reading glasses has never been greater. I hope you are forgiving and can read between my lines.

(in reply to Johnnybeverage)
Post #: 4
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 8/31/2014 8:56:05 AM   
Johnnybeverage

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/31/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: champagneinhand

almost all Cotes du Rhones blanc have a good portion of Viognier in Condrieu, then Marsanne, Roussanne followed by a bit of Cinsault and sometimes Clairette.. E. Guigal tries to keep it at 50% viognier, 20% each of Marsanne and Roussanne and the balance Cinsault and Clairette. Usually it retails for just a bit over 10 bucks. Chapoutier is quite similar and drinking the least expensive Blanc is common all over. No need for any big layout of money unless you want to age the wines, then Hermitage Blanc Marsanne with a bit of Rousanne. Ageable Viognier is also available and Marsanne from st, Joseph. In the areas of Cheateauneuf de Papes and Gigondas you will see much more use of Grenache Blanc or Grenache gris in the blends. Enjoy.

These are white wines. I'm really looking for red with white juice content.

(in reply to champagneinhand)
Post #: 5
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 8/31/2014 7:13:45 PM   
Pontac

 

Posts: 1145
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
errr..

Rhone is home of co-fermentation with Syrah and Viognier.

that is a small proportion - say <5% of white viognier - going in fermentation tank with syrah.

why? because they always did it.

doesn't adding white grapes dilute the red?

that what was thought. But the California 'Rhone Rangers' couldn't duplicate the Rhones with 100% syrah. Only difference was the viognier.

That wasn't good enough so the clever people at UC Davis discovered that fermenting a little viognier with syrah actually brought out colour, emphasied flavour and did opposite of diluting.

so where did the California winemakers find Viognier they could plant at short notice without goingthrough the 5 year quantine programme? Virginia - Denis Horton at Horton Vineyards pioneered Viognier in the US...

NALOPKT

(in reply to Johnnybeverage)
Post #: 6
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/1/2014 1:33:42 AM   
Johnnybeverage

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/31/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pontac

errr..

Rhone is home of co-fermentation with Syrah and Viognier.

that is a small proportion - say <5% of white viognier - going in fermentation tank with syrah.

why? because they always did it.

doesn't adding white grapes dilute the red?

that what was thought. But the California 'Rhone Rangers' couldn't duplicate the Rhones with 100% syrah. Only difference was the viognier.

That wasn't good enough so the clever people at UC Davis discovered that fermenting a little viognier with syrah actually brought out colour, emphasied flavour and did opposite of diluting.

so where did the California winemakers find Viognier they could plant at short notice without goingthrough the 5 year quantine programme? Virginia - Denis Horton at Horton Vineyards pioneered Viognier in the US...

NALOPKT

So you're saying that many of the reds produced in the Rhone may contain an unadvertised portion of white grapes? I guess I can see it but it's just a little off-putting when all the makers I've looked into claim 100% Syrah except those from Cote Rotie.

(in reply to Pontac)
Post #: 7
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/1/2014 5:57:58 AM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4670
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline
Definitely. For example the La La's from Guigal -- basically the very top wines from Cote Rotie -- include one wine (I think it is La Mouline) that has a significant amount of a white grape blended into it in most years. Probably Marsanne but I would need to check to be sure.

Each of the Rhone appellations has its own rules -- we all know about CDP allowing 13 grapes, for example, in the blend for CDP red wines. But in fact I believe that either 2 or 3 of them are white. So this is also true up north, and you can even look the rules up on the web if you can read French. For example, while I know that Cote Rotie (obviously) allows some white juice in the red wines, I think Hermitage and Cornas are more restrictive. If you break those rules your wine ends up declassified -- you can sell it, but you can't call it Hermitage or Cote Rotie or whatever.

If you have Parker's Rhone book he makes a point of explaining the requirements for each appellation in the introduction for that area. So a quick way to get an answer is to pull that dusty book from your shelf!

< Message edited by KPB -- 9/1/2014 5:59:00 AM >


_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to Johnnybeverage)
Post #: 8
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/1/2014 6:22:00 AM   
Johnnybeverage

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/31/2014
Status: offline
Sorry, perhaps my question wasn't very clearly phrased. I was looking for wines other than Cote Rotie.
The Tresores collection from guigal does indeed have many red wines with Viognier blended into them. They're all Cote roties and are all very pricy.
I'm looking for;
Red wine from the Northern Rhone.
Made with a proportion of white grape.
Doesn't cost a packet.
Just for a bit if fun...

(in reply to KPB)
Post #: 9
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/1/2014 7:53:43 AM   
Pontac

 

Posts: 1145
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
they're not actually 'blended' into them.

Blending implies taking made wines and mixing them together.

we're talking about co-fermentation where a very small proportion of viognier grapes are processed and fermented together with syrah producing a chemical reaction that heightens intensity of syrah.

(in reply to Johnnybeverage)
Post #: 10
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/1/2014 3:13:55 PM   
champagneinhand

 

Posts: 10285
Joined: 5/30/2011
From: Upstate New York, California born.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Johnnybeverage

Sorry, perhaps my question wasn't very clearly phrased. I was looking for wines other than Cote Rotie.
The Tresores collection from guigal does indeed have many red wines with Viognier blended into them. They're all Cote roties and are all very pricy.
I'm looking for;
Red wine from the Northern Rhone.
Made with a proportion of white grape.
Doesn't cost a packet.
Just for a bit if fun...


Look for Delas Freres La Landonne, or E.Guigal Cote Bond et Brun. These are much more reasonably priced that you are thinking. Sub $100 in most years. same goes for Chateau d'Ampuis by Guigal. I think Delas Freres also gets parceled grapes from Cotes de Blonde. They are owned by Roederer of champagne legacy.

In the end, all red wines come with white juice as the juice is only colored after the skins soak in the juice. CdP incorporates whites like Cinsault in them as do Bandols

_____________________________

As I age my finger tips seem to be bigger, my iOS keyboard seems to be less kind, and my need for wearing reading glasses has never been greater. I hope you are forgiving and can read between my lines.

(in reply to Johnnybeverage)
Post #: 11
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/1/2014 3:33:45 PM   
khmark7

 

Posts: 11444
Joined: 7/6/2008
From: Chicago suburbs
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pontac

they're not actually 'blended' into them.

Blending implies taking made wines and mixing them together.

we're talking about co-fermentation where a very small proportion of viognier grapes are processed and fermented together with syrah producing a chemical reaction that heightens intensity of syrah.


Chemical reaction? Please elaborate. I don't doubt there is a benefit, but let's be real, it's just another grape variety that helps the producer create a slightly different range of styles.

In California field blends are very common in most old vineyards. Some vineyards have as many as 20 different varieties planted. It's not magic. I'm guessing that back in the day there were just happy to use disease free vines from whatever they could find in an effort to find what grew best.



_____________________________

"a rogue Provence rouge of unknown provenance." author grafstrb

(in reply to Pontac)
Post #: 12
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/1/2014 4:03:37 PM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

Posts: 7859
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
Status: offline
Viognier tannins are reported to be color fixers/stabilizers for Syrah.  Presumably other white grapes, Rousanne, Marsanne, Grenache Blanc, etc... or maybe even red grapes,  could/would do the same thing during co-fermentation. 

Here's the best explanation of the chemistry I found in a quick search ... http://www.donelanwines.com/why-we-might-add-viognier-to-syrah-wine/

< Message edited by ChrisinSunnyside -- 9/1/2014 4:05:57 PM >


_____________________________

http://www.cellartracker.com/new/user.asp?iUserOverride=102173

(in reply to khmark7)
Post #: 13
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/1/2014 5:08:19 PM   
khmark7

 

Posts: 11444
Joined: 7/6/2008
From: Chicago suburbs
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisinSunnyside

Viognier tannins are reported to be color fixers/stabilizers for Syrah.  Presumably other white grapes, Rousanne, Marsanne, Grenache Blanc, etc... or maybe even red grapes,  could/would do the same thing during co-fermentation. 

Here's the best explanation of the chemistry I found in a quick search ... http://www.donelanwines.com/why-we-might-add-viognier-to-syrah-wine/


Interesting little write up. Like the last part about Viognier stems actually adding a cracked pepper aspect to the wines.

My best guess was that back in the day northern Rhone Syrah was green & austere, and adding Viognier probably "ripened" up the red wine and gave it better balance. These days that would not be necessary, but there may be other positives.



_____________________________

"a rogue Provence rouge of unknown provenance." author grafstrb

(in reply to ChrisinCowiche)
Post #: 14
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/2/2014 11:24:27 AM   
Pontac

 

Posts: 1145
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: champagneinhand

In the end, all red CdP incorporates whites like Cinsault in them as do Bandols



CdP can, but doesn't have to, incorporate whites, but Cinsault is a black grape.

(in reply to champagneinhand)
Post #: 15
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/2/2014 11:27:01 AM   
Pontac

 

Posts: 1145
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7


Chemical reaction? Please elaborate.


See my previous post.

(in reply to khmark7)
Post #: 16
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/2/2014 5:55:00 PM   
khmark7

 

Posts: 11444
Joined: 7/6/2008
From: Chicago suburbs
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pontac


quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7


Chemical reaction? Please elaborate.


See my previous post.


That was your previous post. There is no unique chemical reaction I am aware of. You made the claim, and I am just curious which additional chemical reaction is present due to the existence of Viognier, and not some other grape variety.


_____________________________

"a rogue Provence rouge of unknown provenance." author grafstrb

(in reply to Pontac)
Post #: 17
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/2/2014 10:59:00 PM   
ericindc

 

Posts: 2086
Joined: 7/6/2012
From: District of Columbia
Status: offline

I'm not the hugest syrah fan, but those bottlings from the northern rhone I DO like are the ones with viognier cofermented. I find them more elegant and balanced. Straight syrah (yes,even hermitage) tends to be a bit too meaty/bacony/spicy for my liking.




_____________________________

-Eric
Just waiting for my Grand Cru to age.

(in reply to khmark7)
Post #: 18
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/3/2014 12:49:33 AM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4670
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline
Online TNs fromWine Advocate and International Wine Cellar usually tell you what varietals were used, if the reviewer was given that information. But not always, so if they say nothing, you can only speculate. As I mentioned, Parker tried especially hard when he wrote his Rhone book, so for me that would be the way to answer your basic question. Look for high-rated wines that sound good, then check his write-up in the book to see if he mentions use of a white varietal.

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to ericindc)
Post #: 19
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/3/2014 7:36:47 AM   
Sourdough

 

Posts: 1883
Joined: 12/23/2013
From: Austin, Texas
Status: offline
There are a range of potential chemical reactions that adding a different grape to cofermentation could facilitate or enable. In addition to adding or enhancing certain characteristics. There is a lot going on during fermentation. Calling the actions chemical reactions is often simplistic for fermentation itself is not generally thought of as a chemical reaction and the waste products from the yeast and bacteria will vary with the foodstocks they are working on.

As a chemical engineer with a some background in biochemistry I tend to think about the acids in white wines and the fact that they almost certainly contain a rather different profile of complex organic compounds. I tend to suspect that the acids may help break down the skins of the syrah to release more color. I also suspect that the additional organics enable creation of different organic complexes both during fermentation and during the aging that could impact on a variety of factors ranging from flavors to mouthfeel. (A great example of organics forming complexes is the generation of sediment in wines.) Figuring out what is going on in this area could be very difficult for small changes could make significant differences and the flavor characteristics of the complexes might have little relationship to the flavors present in either of the grapes fermented separately. In addition there will almost certainly be exzymatic differences in the grapes that are also likely to shift the end result.

Adding whites often seem to add a bit of "brightness" to a red - making it more aromatic and potentially a bit more lively (somewhat like putting a dash of lemon on food). While some of this is almost certainly not a reaction some of it might be.

Hope that is useful in contemplating the impact of mixing grapes.

(in reply to KPB)
Post #: 20
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/3/2014 1:30:21 PM   
johanb

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 8/6/2006
Status: offline
As far as Northern Rhones go, only Cote Rotie allows the addition of up to 20% Viognier (must be co-fermented) although typically the percentage is much less. Also, the viognier vines must be co-planted with the syrah vines in field blends, not grown in separate parcels. This explains the co-fermentation as it would have been impractical to separately pick and vinify the viognier and syrah grapes on the very steep Cote Rotie hillsides.

Other appellations such Hermitage, Crozes Hermitage and St Joseph allow the addition of up to 15% of Marsanne and Rousanne although the practice has essentially disappeared. Cornas has to be 100% syrah by law.

In the Southern Rhone, it is extremely rare to blend or co-ferment any white grapes with the red grapes. Some appellations like Gigondas don't produce any white wines at all and don't allow any white varieties in the blend. Other crus and village wines similarly don't allow any white varieties in the blend. Basic Cotes du Rhone wine producers are technically allowed to blend in white grapes but hardly ever do.

CDP is somewhat of an outlier. CDP was among the very first areas replanted after the phylloxera. (which first appeared in France in Roquemaure across the river from CDP). Nobody knew which varieties would thrive on the new american rootstocks so co-plantation (field blends) was the preferred approach in the 1890s when CDP was replanted. The first five varieties replanted were all red: grenache, mourverdre, counoise, vaccarese, cinsault, syrah. Some of the older historic varieties such as terret noir, picpoul and muscardin which had always been present were also replanted. Even some hybrids such as jacquez were initially planted. White varietals were planted somewhat later. It also turned out some of the initial field blends also included some white varieties which ended being picked and cofermented with the red grapes as it would have been too complicated to ferment them separately. Pretty much nobody coferments any white grapes with the red grapes in CDP anymore except for some occasional leftover field blends in the very oldest vineyards.

When the local producers originally registered the name Chateauneuf du Pape in 1928 to limit counterfeiting, they were not prepared to rip out any vines and essentially allowed whatever had been customarily grown to that date. When the AOC system finally came into existence in 1935, CDP became the first official appellation controlee in France, and except for any hybrids which were banned all over France, no changes were made to the allowed varieties and Chateauneuf got to keep the 13 varieties growing at the time. (Actually 18 counting the white & grey mutations of grenache, clairette and piquepoul). It did not hurt that the founder and first president of the AOC system was also the mayor of CDP and owner of one of its largest estates, Chateau Fortia. To this day, CDP remains the only appellation where there are no minimum requirements as long as it is on the approved list. 100% grenache wines are increasingly common especially for high end cuvees and even 100% mourverdre or syrah wines have been produced. This is not possible for the other Rhone appellations which all stipulate minimum amounts of certain varietals.



< Message edited by johanb -- 9/3/2014 2:13:40 PM >


_____________________________

lou vin de castou noù douno la voio, emai l'amour, emai la joio

(The wines of Chateauneuf give us singing, love and joy)
Frederic Mistral

(in reply to Sourdough)
Post #: 21
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/3/2014 2:30:11 PM   
Old Doug

 

Posts: 8279
Joined: 5/12/2011
From: Atlanta, Georgia, US
Status: offline
Johanb, very nice, informative post.

(in reply to johanb)
Post #: 22
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/4/2014 5:32:02 AM   
khmark7

 

Posts: 11444
Joined: 7/6/2008
From: Chicago suburbs
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sourdough

There are a range of potential chemical reactions that adding a different grape to cofermentation could facilitate or enable. In addition to adding or enhancing certain characteristics. There is a lot going on during fermentation. Calling the actions chemical reactions is often simplistic for fermentation itself is not generally thought of as a chemical reaction and the waste products from the yeast and bacteria will vary with the foodstocks they are working on.

As a chemical engineer with a some background in biochemistry I tend to think about the acids in white wines and the fact that they almost certainly contain a rather different profile of complex organic compounds. I tend to suspect that the acids may help break down the skins of the syrah to release more color. I also suspect that the additional organics enable creation of different organic complexes both during fermentation and during the aging that could impact on a variety of factors ranging from flavors to mouthfeel. (A great example of organics forming complexes is the generation of sediment in wines.) Figuring out what is going on in this area could be very difficult for small changes could make significant differences and the flavor characteristics of the complexes might have little relationship to the flavors present in either of the grapes fermented separately. In addition there will almost certainly be exzymatic differences in the grapes that are also likely to shift the end result.

Adding whites often seem to add a bit of "brightness" to a red - making it more aromatic and potentially a bit more lively (somewhat like putting a dash of lemon on food). While some of this is almost certainly not a reaction some of it might be.

Hope that is useful in contemplating the impact of mixing grapes.


I have concerns about the whole idea. Personally sounds like French marketing. Taking something that was done long ago for basic necessity and turn it into some romantic magical expression of terroir in present day (I picture some French guy waving his hands all over while discussing it). Some French vinemaker in recent years must have done some additional research on this one would think.

Viognier to me is low acidity when fermented in single batches for wine, and it may surprise people but my vine catalog states that Viognier ripens later than Syrah, so perhaps in a field blend if you pick slightly unripe Viognier (high acidity and perhaps slightly herbal at that time) with ripe Syrah there is a noticeable difference in the wine (probably more acidity). The organics are basically the same, only that the white grape is fermented on it's skins which you don't normally see.
It may just be that Sauvignon Blanc, Chenin Blanc and other northern white wines ripened too early or didn't grow well in that area??
As far as color goes, the Australians make some bloody red Syrah and they don't conferment anything, so that whole color stabilizer thing might make more sense only in less ripe Syrah??

Would be very curious if anyone has seen Viognier fermented on it's skins to see if there are significant flavor alterations compared to it's production as a typical white wine where it is NOT fermented on it's skins. The truth may lie in the skins.



_____________________________

"a rogue Provence rouge of unknown provenance." author grafstrb

(in reply to Sourdough)
Post #: 23
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/4/2014 6:04:48 PM   
mclancy10006

 

Posts: 4510
Joined: 3/19/2007
From: Cape Cod, MA & Bellevue, WA
Status: offline
So this turned into a more interesting thread than a simple, but good question!

I strongly suggest we do extensive testing in the crucible of wine sport known as the offline as soon as possible!


-Mark



(in reply to khmark7)
Post #: 24
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/4/2014 6:07:47 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4670
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline
Johan, this is a great post! Fascinating... Thank you for explaining!

The earlier post outlining the biochemistry of cofermentatiom was really interesting too...

< Message edited by KPB -- 9/4/2014 6:08:24 PM >


_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to johanb)
Post #: 25
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/4/2014 7:55:34 PM   
Sourdough

 

Posts: 1883
Joined: 12/23/2013
From: Austin, Texas
Status: offline
Good comments khamark! You raise good points about varietals and which ones are used (or not). I was only responding to the questtion about "reactions" and hte claim that viognier gets more color out of syrah grapes. If my hypothesis is right other whites Iwith some acid) should provide similar results. I do not know that is true.Good comment about viognier and acid and potentiqlly being used underripe!

quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

I have concerns about the whole idea. Personally sounds like French marketing. Taking something that was done long ago for basic necessity and turn it into some romantic magical expression of terroir in present day (I picture some French guy waving his hands all over while discussing it). Some French vinemaker in recent years must have done some additional research on this one would think.

Viognier to me is low acidity when fermented in single batches for wine, and it may surprise people but my vine catalog states that Viognier ripens later than Syrah, so perhaps in a field blend if you pick slightly unripe Viognier (high acidity and perhaps slightly herbal at that time) with ripe Syrah there is a noticeable difference in the wine (probably more acidity). The organics are basically the same, only that the white grape is fermented on it's skins which you don't normally see.
It may just be that Sauvignon Blanc, Chenin Blanc and other northern white wines ripened too early or didn't grow well in that area??
As far as color goes, the Australians make some bloody red Syrah and they don't conferment anything, so that whole color stabilizer thing might make more sense only in less ripe Syrah??

Would be very curious if anyone has seen Viognier fermented on it's skins to see if there are significant flavor alterations compared to it's production as a typical white wine where it is NOT fermented on it's skins. The truth may lie in the skins.




(in reply to khmark7)
Post #: 26
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/4/2014 8:23:53 PM   
Sourdough

 

Posts: 1883
Joined: 12/23/2013
From: Austin, Texas
Status: offline
Good Comments, khmark! You raise very good points about why viognier may be used versus other grapes. I was merely responding to the comment that viognier supposedly gets more color out of syrah skins. I would tend to think any ****e with some acid would be similar in that effect. Your thought that viognier might be underripe is very interesting and seems to make sense. And I was trying to respond to the "chemical reaction question which can get really complicated when complex organic compounds are involved. Thanks for the comments!
Jay

quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sourdough

There are a range of potential chemical reactions that adding a different grape to cofermentation could facilitate or enable. In addition to adding or enhancing certain characteristics. There is a lot going on during fermentation. Calling the actions chemical reactions is often simplistic for fermentation itself is not generally thought of as a chemical reaction and the waste products from the yeast and bacteria will vary with the foodstocks they are working on.

As a chemical engineer with a some background in biochemistry I tend to think about the acids in white wines and the fact that they almost certainly contain a rather different profile of complex organic compounds. I tend to suspect that the acids may help break down the skins of the syrah to release more color. I also suspect that the additional organics enable creation of different organic complexes both during fermentation and during the aging that could impact on a variety of factors ranging from flavors to mouthfeel. (A great example of organics forming complexes is the generation of sediment in wines.) Figuring out what is going on in this area could be very difficult for small changes could make significant differences and the flavor characteristics of the complexes might have little relationship to the flavors present in either of the grapes fermented separately. In addition there will almost certainly be exzymatic differences in the grapes that are also likely to shift the end result.

Adding whites often seem to add a bit of "brightness" to a red - making it more aromatic and potentially a bit more lively (somewhat like putting a dash of lemon on food). While some of this is almost certainly not a reaction some of it might be.

Hope that is useful in contemplating the impact of mixing grapes.


I have concerns about the whole idea. Personally sounds like French marketing. Taking something that was done long ago for basic necessity and turn it into some romantic magical expression of terroir in present day (I picture some French guy waving his hands all over while discussing it). Some French vinemaker in recent years must have done some additional research on this one would think.

Viognier to me is low acidity when fermented in single batches for wine, and it may surprise people but my vine catalog states that Viognier ripens later than Syrah, so perhaps in a field blend if you pick slightly unripe Viognier (high acidity and perhaps slightly herbal at that time) with ripe Syrah there is a noticeable difference in the wine (probably more acidity). The organics are basically the same, only that the white grape is fermented on it's skins which you don't normally see.
It may just be that Sauvignon Blanc, Chenin Blanc and other northern white wines ripened too early or didn't grow well in that area??
As far as color goes, the Australians make some bloody red Syrah and they don't conferment anything, so that whole color stabilizer thing might make more sense only in less ripe Syrah??

Would be very curious if anyone has seen Viognier fermented on it's skins to see if there are significant flavor alterations compared to it's production as a typical white wine where it is NOT fermented on it's skins. The truth may lie in the skins.





< Message edited by Sourdough -- 9/4/2014 8:44:19 PM >

(in reply to khmark7)
Post #: 27
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/5/2014 11:48:09 AM   
johanb

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 8/6/2006
Status: offline
I did a a little bit of background checking with at least one Cote Rotie producer on the issue of viognier and here is what I have been able to find out even if based on a limited sample.

Historically, Cote Rotie, as the northermost Rhone appelation had problems achieving ripeness of the Syrah grape in cooler years, especially in some of the higher elevation plots. Viognier ripens EARLIER than syrah by several weeks in Cote Rotie. Cofermenting the two varieties would reduce some of the harshness of the syrah tannins, adding some lushness and plumpness, soft and round tannins and apricot and peach flavors fruit to the finished wine.

In appellations further south, especially Hermitage, the syrah never had the same problems in achieving sufficient ripeness. When the syrah reaches full ripeness, any coplanted viognier would now become overripe, excessively sweet and high in alcohol. With global warming mostly to blame, harvest in Cote Rotie happens nearly a full month earlier than in the 1960s, and ripeness is seldom a concern these days. This is in part why most producers have given up over time adding Viognier or at least decreased the amount added.

_____________________________

lou vin de castou noù douno la voio, emai l'amour, emai la joio

(The wines of Chateauneuf give us singing, love and joy)
Frederic Mistral

(in reply to Sourdough)
Post #: 28
RE: White grapes, Red Rhone - 9/28/2014 1:54:09 PM   
mclancy10006

 

Posts: 4510
Joined: 3/19/2007
From: Cape Cod, MA & Bellevue, WA
Status: offline
I have not tried this wine, but given what you were looking for it might fit the bill. 95% Syrah/ 5% viognier

http://kermitlynch.com/our-wines/domaine-jasmin/

I saw it on Cinderalla wines for ~30/btl ,but I think that ends today.

http://cinderellawine.com/2014/09/28/2007-jasmin-cote-rotie/


-Mark

(in reply to johanb)
Post #: 29
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Cellar Talk] >> General Discussion >> White grapes, Red Rhone Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.156