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German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 9:44:19 AM   
ericindc

 

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Trying to understand who are the good German Riesling producers. I have a handle on Alsace and Austria, but Germany is highly confusing. It doesnt help that they keep changing the sugar level definitions.

Who are solid, classic producers who i can feel confident in buying in any given year, and produce top tier wines capable of aging well? Which cuvees ones are top tier?

So I know Donnhoff, Keller. Who else?






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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 9:47:37 AM   
barolo300

 

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About 50 people are about to shout

JOH JOS PRUM at their screens.

And clemens busch
Dr Loosen
Reichsrat von Buhl


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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 9:54:15 AM   
mye

 

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I buy Donhoff and JJ Prum every year..

Others i like / good value:
Schafer Frolich
Schloss Liser
Selbach Oster

Egon muller / keller are apparently good, but way too expensive for me...

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 11:57:26 AM   
gotfunk

 

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Do you have a preference for dry vs. fruity/sweet styles? I enjoy both, but I buy and drink way more of the latter. I'll echo Prüm, Donnhoff and Selbach-Oster, and additionally throw out Willi Schaefer, Zilliken and Merkelbach.

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 12:15:05 PM   
bretrooks

 

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Caveats: My sample size is much smaller than that of many others here, generally just with a couple/few bottles per producer, and focused mostly on Spatlese-level wines (with a handful of ausleses and kabinetts along the way). With that said, some producers I've personally enjoyed most would be:

Donnhoff
Selbach Oster
Prüm
August Kesseler

I've also had memorable single-bottle experiences with:
Karthäuserhof
Wegeler
Willi Schaefer

Paging ob2s...

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 12:19:25 PM   
ericindc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gotfunk

Do you have a preference for dry vs. fruity/sweet styles? I enjoy both, but I buy and drink way more of the latter. I'll echo Prüm, Donnhoff and Selbach-Oster, and additionally throw out Willi Schaefer, Zilliken and Merkelbach.



I tend to like a spectrum of wines because we typically drink wines with food. I have more experience with older spatlese and auslese; but generally just want to know about the best producers. For instance, I got a bunch of Clemens Bush, and bought a couple of each style and sweetness levels (other than Beerenauslese, TBA, and Icewine).

Honestly, I'm a touch confused regarding trocken vs. kabinett vs. feinherb.


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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 12:25:23 PM   
Hollowine

 

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Es ist alles sehr gut!

JJ Prum
Donnhoff
Kerpen
Von Schubert

PM ob2s

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 12:28:17 PM   
barolo300

 

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There are various legal parameters to what is called Trocken and Kabinett but it boils down to generally kabinett has enough residual sugar to keep its alcohol to around 8.5-9%, let’s say. On Trocken it has generally been fermented to dryness and the alcohol could be say 10.5-12.5% or higher. Regions differ and producers differ in this regard. In the Mosel they don’t like to think of their wines as being sweet wines, rather producers tend to say ‘fruity style’!

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 12:38:23 PM   
jmcmchi

 

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Christmann, Rebholz, from the Pfalz
Battenfeld Spanier, Wittmann from Rheinhessen
Leitz in Rheingau

Kabinett is one of the officially defined quality levels (like Auslese etc)
Trocken and feinherb are descriptions - trocken max 9g sugar, feinherb less precise, 10-20 g sugar per litre


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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 12:43:46 PM   
hankj

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

Trocken and feinherb are descriptions - trocken max 9g sugar, feinherb less precise, 10-20 g sugar per litre



In Washington State feinherb is also sold by the gram - 10-20 of them and you've blacked a week out of your long term memory :)


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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 12:43:49 PM   
JGerbasIII

 

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R. Haart (I love Goldtrophchen wine)
Falkenstein
Schubert
Some of the JJ Prum

Just have a look in my cellar...


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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 5:39:54 PM   
Smaragd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc


I tend to like a spectrum of wines because we typically drink wines with food.




Yeah - I keep having charming but ultimately frustrating conversations here and offline about what kind of things one might pair with the sweeter (fruity) style Rieslings. I have had very good luck pairing Auslese and even Spätlese with chili, pad thai, etc. But I maintain that it's hard to imagine some of these wines with Mosel/ Rhein/ Pfalz regional cuisine.

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 6:47:58 PM   
Hollowine

 

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http://schiller-wine.blogspot.de/2017/12/germanys-18-top-winemakers-gault-millau.html?m=1

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 6:49:35 PM   
Anthonyiez

 

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Back when my wife was into Riesling it was JJP, loosen, donhoff, RvB and haart like metioned above. She also loved monchoff.

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/5/2018 7:48:43 PM   
CranBurgundy

 

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Max Ferd Richter has a monopoly on Veldenzer Elisenberg. Gotta be the absolute best buy for better Riesling.

Otherwise, I'll end up sounding like a parrot, echoing some of the above producers.

*SQUAWK* Schäfer-Fröhlich

*SQUAWK* JJ Prüm

*SQUAWK* Polly wants a glass of JJ Christoffel



EDIT because autocorrect sucks.

< Message edited by CranBurgundy -- 1/6/2018 5:52:20 AM >


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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/6/2018 2:35:39 AM   
JGerbasIII

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: smaragd


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc


I tend to like a spectrum of wines because we typically drink wines with food.




Yeah - I keep having charming but ultimately frustrating conversations here and offline about what kind of things one might pair with the sweeter (fruity) style Rieslings. I have had very good luck pairing Auslese and even Spätlese with chili, pad thai, etc. But I maintain that it's hard to imagine some of these wines with Mosel/ Rhein/ Pfalz regional cuisine.


We (locals) prefer sekt to kabs and some Spat Fineherb and everything in between... for regional dishes.

Even with steak, due to the herb butter, I prefer a Kabinett.


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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/6/2018 2:40:10 AM   
forceberry

 

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Like so many before me have pointed out: depends on the style, on the region and the price point you're looking for. Of course you can spend fortunes on Keller's top wines, but there are wines that can offer same levels of enjoyment at $15-25. A big proportion of the best producers come from Mosel, because that particular region arguably produces the most stunning Rieslings in the world. However, Rheingau and Pfalz do some stunning stuff as well and the lowlier regions of Nahe and Rheinhessen are up there too with their best producers.

Some of my favorites include:
Albert Gessinger (Mosel)
Schlossgut Diel (Nahe)
Max. Ferd. Richter (Mosel)
Joh. Jos. Prüm (Mosel)
Reichsrat von Buhl (Pfalz)
Dr. Bürklin-Wolf (Pfalz)
Stein (Mosel)
Heymann-Löwenstein (Mosel)
St. Urbans-Hof (Mosel)
Van Volxem (Mosel)
Winter (Rheinhessen)
Emrich-Schönleber (Nahe)
Leitz (Rheingau)
Wittmann (Rheinhessen)

I've heard a lot good about Clemens-Busch, but even though having tasted a good handful of their wines, I've never really gotten into them.

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/6/2018 3:19:59 AM   
Claude Bizon

 

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Hello!
Here are some winemakers I know well, they all produce excellent wines, especially Manz, Schätzle und Gröhl (excellent value for the latter):

Weingut Manz-Weinolsheim-Rheinhessen
Weingut Gregor und Thomas Schätzle-Schelingen im Kaiserstuhl (Baden)
Wiengut Gröhl-Weinolsheim-Rheinhessen
Weingut K. Burg- Hallgarten im Rheingau
Weingut Ritter und Edler von Oetinger-Erbach im Rheingau
Lukas-Pfarrweingut-Lucashof-Forst an der Weinstrasse (Rheinpfalz)
Cheers!

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/10/2018 4:56:47 AM   
vingrisen

 

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Here are a few of my favourite producers:

Dönnhoff
Weingut Keller
Schäfer-Fröhlich
Georg Breuer
Georg Mosbacher
Joh. Jos. Prüm
Peter Lauer
Markus Molitor
Egon Müller
Fritz Haag

Some of theese produce great dry Rieslings, some do wonderful sweeter wines - and some do both.

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/10/2018 10:25:00 AM   
BenNoir

 

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I also do not understand Riesling, but am trying to learn. I prefer dry verses more fruity.

I bought a case of Dönnhoff based on advice from a few forum members who know a lot more about Riesling than I do.
I tried a few and this was my favorite. I have a few more bottles of this which are sleeping.
2015 Dönnhoff Hermannshohle Riesling Großes Gewächs
The above wine has a Premium price, and with my rookie palate I thought I might taste more locally.

New world Rieslings are more affordable, and I was seeking a Pedestrian Riesling of decent quality in the old world tradition.
I have tried a bunch that were really unexciting and not worth of cellaring.

I bought this Washington wine recently at Costco. I have not tried it but I've read good things about it.
2015 Chateau Ste. Michelle & Dr. Loosen Riesling Eroica

This one from Oregon - also Pedestrian in price, but I've not tried it yet either.
2015 Trisaetum Riesling Dry Coast Range Estate

I bought a half case from this California producer at last years Berserker Day, and it's better than most but still falls short of Dönnhoff.
2015 Navarro Vineyards Riesling

I would be interested in an annual buy from German producers, but I also struggle with how. Last time I used Vinopolis, but I really don't know what I'm doing yet. I would also like to find some more affordable new world Rieslings, so if anyone has found ones they like, let me know.




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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/10/2018 10:31:24 AM   
JGerbasIII

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bennor

I also do not understand Riesling, but am trying to learn. I prefer dry verses more fruity.

I bought a case of Dönnhoff based on advice from a few forum members who know a lot more about Riesling than I do.
I tried a few and this was my favorite. I have a few more bottles of this which are sleeping.
2015 Dönnhoff Hermannshohle Riesling Großes Gewächs
The above wine has a Premium price, and with my rookie palate I thought I might taste more locally.

New world Rieslings are more affordable, and I was seeking a Pedestrian Riesling of decent quality in the old world tradition.
I have tried a bunch that were really unexciting and not worth of cellaring.

I bought this Washington wine recently at Costco. I have not tried it but I've read good things about it.
2015 Chateau Ste. Michelle & Dr. Loosen Riesling Eroica

This one from Oregon - also Pedestrian in price, but I've not tried it yet either.
2015 Trisaetum Riesling Dry Coast Range Estate

I bought a half case from this California producer at last years Berserker Day, and it's better than most but still falls short of Dönnhoff.
2015 Navarro Vineyards Riesling

I would be interested in an annual buy from German producers, but I also struggle with how. Last time I used Vinopolis, but I really don't know what I'm doing yet. I would also like to find some more affordable new world Rieslings, so if anyone has found ones they like, let me know.





If someone would setup the logistics, I could sort out some awesome deals on mosel wines. Peoples jaws hit the floor when I tell them local prices here.

Top Kabs all under 10 a bottle.


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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/10/2018 10:44:59 AM   
dsGris

 

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Bill Hooper of Wienbau Paetra studied in Germany. He had a Berserker Day Offer last year that I missed, but the reviews were so positive, I went and bought a mixed case from Vinopolis. Both dry and sweet wines from various vineyards, they are superb and inexpensive, $14-20. Not German, but maybe the next best.

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/10/2018 10:52:58 AM   
ob2s

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JGerbasIII

If someone would setup the logistics, I could sort out some awesome deals on mosel wines. Peoples jaws hit the floor when I tell them local prices here.

Top Kabs all under 10 a bottle.



Some Paulinshof, Max Ferdinand von Richter and I am in ;-)


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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/10/2018 11:55:41 AM   
ob2s

 

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So, re Kabinett, Spaetlese, Auslese [KSA] (BA,TBA, Eiswein are almost always dessert wine)
German Regulations for these QmP wines dictate the sugar levels at harvest. 50 years ago this meant the Spaetlese was sweeter than the Kabinett and the Auslese sweeter than the Spaetlese. Now it is different (sometimes), however if you think about these in terms of increasing density or maybe intensity, then we can move on to Feinherb, Trocken etc, in a minute.

Due to this thing called globa.... I mean hotter summers, even the traditionally sweet [KSA] can be sweeter that what was traditional. A Kabinett should be the driest of the 3, but the regulations are such that you can pick at Auslese sugar levels and label it Kabinett. So when it comes to regular KSA, you have to use ABV #s to determine how sweet it will be. All this of course changes over time in bottle, a lot of time really. When you see a Kabinett with 7.0% ABV, this could have been a Beerenauslese in 1973. A 'classic' Kabinett is on the order of 10ish% ABV.

The German palate has changed quite a bit, maybe rebelling against the ocean of sweet **** in blue bottles shipped the world over, but anyway, they drink more dry riesling than traditionally sweet wines. Much of it is exported.

Trocken: These are of course vinified to levels considered dry. 11.5->14% ABV. The great unwashed can have a Trocken wine and say it is sweet. Yes there is resid sugar, but intensity of fruit is NOT always sugar. You can have KSA Trocken wines, these can be very special, like a 2015 Molitor Wehlener Sonnenuhr Auslese*** Trocken I had over the holidays. It was very dense, fruity yet dry. It was Grand '2Live' Cru. It can be a hassle to meet the regulations of KSA (chapitalisation,etc) when you want to make a Trocken wine. So many high end trocken wines are called Qualitaetswein, which can also be a designation of 3 euro wines. Most Grosses Gewaechs (grand cru-ish) dry wines are from the best parcels of the vineyard but are labeled Qualitaetswein. And they actually are quality and $$$.

Halbtrocken: Same as above for KSA but used less often now, ABV ~ 10-11.5%. This is an official term with ABV regulations.

Feinherb: It is kind of like Halbtrocken with more flexibility. So now we transition to opinion.... Feinherb is a concept really. What can the wine maker do to achieve the perfect balance between sweet and dry ? If they find that combination, the bottle might reflect that by putting Feinherb on the label. These are the wines I really have a passion for. You can find KSA Feinherbs as well as Qualitaetswein Feinherbs. Not every Feinherb is the ultimate expression, of course, wine is life. Winemakers also use Feinherb to make a Kabinett for instance that has classic dry-ish characteristics.

VDP and Grosses Gewaechs is another discussion, but one thing I can say is that this labeling means a GG good deal is rare.

< Message edited by ob2s -- 1/10/2018 12:17:20 PM >


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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/10/2018 11:57:21 AM   
jmcmchi

 

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quote:

I prefer dry verses more fruity.


Bennor,

Costco usually has a dry Australian riesling - Pewsey Vale - at a very reasonable price. It has much less RS than the Eroica (which I also like).
If you are at the Chateau, you could also try their riesling flight (although the current release of "dry" is less dry than prior years), and particularly their Waussie

Wakefield is another widely available dry Aussie riesling

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/10/2018 12:34:21 PM   
jmcmchi

 

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quote:

Trocken: These are of course vinified to levels considered dry. 11.5->14% ABV. The great unwashed can have a Trocken wine and say it is sweet. Yes there is resid sugar, but intensity of fruit is NOT always sugar. You can have KSA Trocken wines, these can be very special, like a 2015 Molitor Wehlener Sonnenuhr Auslese*** Trocken I had over the holidays. It can be a hassle to meet the regulations of KSA (chapitalisation,etc) when you want to make a Trocken wine. So many high end trocken wines are called Qualitaetswein, which can also be a designation of 3 euros wines. Most Grosses Gewaechs (grand cru-ish) dry wines are from the best parcels of the vineyard but are labeled Qualitaetswein. And they actually are quality and $$$.


True
Then it becomes complicated...The definition allows for "trocken" to have up to 9 g of residual sugar; but it also requires at least an equivalent amount of acid, otherwise the limit is 7 g

Qualitätswein as a label does not mean much in itself, other than a guarantee of origin and a certain ripeness at harvest and comes with an official AP number - it is the third level in the official quality levels (above deutscher Wein and Landwein) but most German wine is officially classified as Qualitätswein.
Prädikatswein is what most people would think of as "quality wine", where you get into the Kabinett, etc. levels,

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/10/2018 12:45:01 PM   
ob2s

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi
True
Then it becomes complicated...The definition allows for "trocken" to have up to 9 g of residual sugar; but it also requires at least an equivalent amount of acid, otherwise the limit is 7 g


Indeed, but these levels don't provide a very good rule of thumb for shopping since they are rarely indicated on the label. The original poster said he found German wine to be a bit complicated, it is hard to not fall into a rabbit hole with when trying to simplify what is unnecessarily complicated in the first place.


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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/10/2018 1:03:28 PM   
jmcmchi

 

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quote:

what is unnecessarily complicated in the first place.


yes; German wine laws are perfect examples of bureaucracy run amok (Papierkrieg)

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/10/2018 1:06:35 PM   
ob2s

 

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Kompliziert oder nichts.

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RE: German Riesling Producers - thoughts? - 1/11/2018 8:47:31 AM   
grafstrb

 

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JJ Prum --- truly a year in, year out buy if you're looking to buy that often.

JJ Christoffel --- although, admittedly, I haven't seen this producer around much lately


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