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Subscription Model - 4/11/2024 9:17:55 PM

ChipGreen

Posts: 28
Joined: 1/24/2012
Status: offline

Hello, it's been so long since I posted here that I had to re-register for the forum! I joined Cellar Tracker in January of 2012 and made a voluntary donation of $24. Each year, I have increased my donation by $12, so I paid $168 this year. I have ~4,000 bottles in my cellar. I understand the concept of making those who have bigger cellars pay more than those with just a handful of bottles but feel that the price disparity is way too high. Personally, I feel that my $165 "donation" was pretty generous, given the tiny blip of data that is my cellar among the gigantic CT database. Under the subscription model, the previously "recommended donation" amounts are now the required subscription amounts.

Cellar Size
Annual Subscription (USD)
--------------------------------
Up to 100 bottles - $40
Up to 250 bottles - $60
Up to 500 bottles - $80
Up to 1,000 bottles - $160
Up to 2,500 bottles - $320
2,500+ bottles - $500

$500? Really? There is no way I am paying $500. I suppose I could reduce bottle quantity down to (1) for every different wine in my cellar to get down to the $320 level but that is still 2x what I feel was a very generous payment that I made this year. Plus it would defeat the basic purpose of wine inventory. Looks like I will be reverting to the free version of CT, since the $180 I would have paid next year voluntarily, is no longer good enough. Ultimately, I suspect that Eric will make more money with the subscription model but he is also going to lose a LOT of customers. Again, I understand and do not disagree with the concept of those who have more bottles paying a higher fee but the amount of data that my 4,000 bottle cellar takes up on CT's servers is less than a fraction of a fraction of a drop in the bucket of overall data. NOBODY should have to pay more than $20/month = $240/year regardless of cellar size. How about re-thinking this *before* you lose tens of thousands of paying customers? I suggest a 4 tiered system. Starting at $5/month = $60/year for up to 250 bottles, $10/month = $120/year for up to 500 bottles, $15/month = $180/year for up to 1,000 bottles and $20/month = $240/year for over 1,000 bottles. That would probably be more profitable overall for CT (assuming the vast majority of users are in the lower categories) and result in far fewer defections from people like myself.

Finally, I would like to point out that it's users like myself who add content to the site. I have added numerous wines, fixed many mistakes, reviewed hundreds of wines, submitted label pics, etc. So, I have given back to the community in more ways than just paying for the app. 100 bottle users are unlikely to add value to the site in that way. I feel like these pricing tiers are a huge mistake at the higher levels.

Post #: 1

RE: Subscription Model - 4/11/2024 9:41:58 PM

fingers

Posts: 8242
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline

You're on the late train, my friend

(in reply to ChipGreen)

Post #: 2

RE: Subscription Model - 4/11/2024 9:52:49 PM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

These tiers are actually unchanged for a few years now. And the model is still flexible.

Please read: https://support.cellartracker.com/article/80-cellartracker-subscription

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 3

RE: Subscription Model - 4/12/2024 4:36:26 AM

Paul852

Posts: 2650
Joined: 6/27/2018
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline

I'm guessing that the average cost of wines cellared long term and recorded in CT must be at least US$50. So at 2500 bottles we're talking a cellar at cost (never mind current value) of US$125,000. So CT is asking at most 0.4% per annum of the cost price of the cellar. That really doesn't seem a lot to me. I don't really cellar wine, but I buy a lot (for the enjoyment of drinking it rather than for the enjoyment of watching it get old and maybe drinking, or even just tasting and spitting, it later, or pouring it down the drain if it has gone off). I have generally paid 1% of the cost of the value of the wines that I bought in the previous year (~US$100-$200 per year), and I feel that it is great value at that price.

< Message edited by Paul852 -- 4/12/2024 4:37:57 AM >

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 4

RE: Subscription Model - 4/12/2024 8:17:50 AM

ChipGreen

Posts: 28
Joined: 1/24/2012
Status: offline

Eric, thank you for the reply. That was not clear to me from previous communications.

Paul, why should the cost of an app be based upon a percentage of the value of what is being tracked in a database? It's a glorified spreadsheet. We are the ones providing all the content. Cellar Tracker just collects the data and aggregates it for us.

(in reply to Paul852)

Post #: 5

RE: Subscription Model - 4/12/2024 9:12:48 AM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChipGreen

Eric, thank you for the reply. That was not clear to me from previous communications.

Paul, why should the cost of an app be based upon a percentage of the value of what is being tracked in a database? It's a glorified spreadsheet. We are the ones providing all the content. Cellar Tracker just collects the data and aggregates it for us.

Respectfully, we have created a magnet that is bringing millions of users together in one place. That doesn't just happen on its own, and in fact it was my intentional design philosophy starting on 2003. And in every communication such as my letter to the community I acknowledge that: "The magic of CellarTracker is in the community"

https://www.cellartracker.com/content.asp?iContent=87

And yes, it is a spreadsheet. With a database of 5 million wines that is constantly curated. We have invested millions of dollars into that and have a vibrant team who works at that constantly.

At the end of the day, YOU get to decide if you want to use CellarTracker for free or if you want to subscribe to access the subscriber-only features. Going back to 2004 I have always based on the recommendations on cellar size, and I have always allowed flexibility for a user to choose. And if CellarTracker helps you to save a bottle or three per year hopefully it is worth it to you.

We are modernizing and formalizing the subscription model a bit out of a desire to dramatically increase the investment into the product and to ensure that it is here 50 years from now.

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to ChipGreen)

Post #: 6

RE: Subscription Model - 4/12/2024 9:34:55 AM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

By the way, Chip refers to his subscription payment as a "donation."

That is partly why we are making changes. It is not and has never been a donation. We are not a 501c(3). We have always been a for-profit venture. For 20 years I used the term "voluntary payment to unlock premium features," but based upon hundreds of user interviews we found that most people were confused by that. So we have adopted more traditional subscription language which is much more familiar to people now than it was 20 years ago.

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 7

RE: Subscription Model - 4/12/2024 9:59:18 AM

Blue Shorts

Posts: 2774
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Santa Cruz
Status: offline

I actually like the model and the fact that we can pay less than recommended works well for me.

I tend to pay less than recommended because I don't really use any of the premium features at all. Sure, seeing the current auction price is fun, but I never sell or buy wines at auction. I could just use the free access since I basically use cellartracker as a spreadsheet, but I think that would be wrong. Eric should be compensated for all of the work that has gone into providing this tool.

I will continue to pay a modest fee for access to this site as long as the payments remain flexible / reasonable.

(in reply to ChipGreen)

Post #: 8

RE: Subscription Model - 4/12/2024 2:59:38 PM

Scott W

Posts: 955
Joined: 11/20/2012
From: Sherman Oaks Ca
Status: offline

Wow Eric's work for 20 years is considered a "It's a glorified spreadsheet" I have no words.

_____________________________

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Post #: 9

RE: Subscription Model - 4/13/2024 6:11:51 AM

Paul852

Posts: 2650
Joined: 6/27/2018
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChipGreen
Paul, why should the cost of an app be based upon a percentage of the value of what is being tracked in a database? It's a glorified spreadsheet. We are the ones providing all the content. Cellar Tracker just collects the data and aggregates it for us.

Well in my mind if I didn't have CT to guide me with TNs etc (and also to some extent community average value, although primarily WSPro guides me there) then I feel I would waste significantly more than 1% of my annual wine spend on stuff that I just wouldn't like. I am happy to pay for a service based on the value that I think it brings to me, whether that be an app or a in-person service. In America people tip something like 20% of what they pay for food and drink for the "service". If you're happy to tip someone 20% of the price of the wine just for opening and pouring it then it seems to me that 1% for a service that reduces your chance of buying the wrong wine in the first place is a good deal. I accept that 1% is an arbitrary number, but it feels about right to me.

The only caveat I have to that is that most of the database content is user-generated, and I do spend a non-trivial amount of time and effort reporting errors or suggesting updates which are often not directly driven by what I am purchasing. Being retired and having a lot of free time this isn't a big deal, but it would be nice if there were some sort of recognition for those of us who support CT in this way. This could be like the league tables of TNs and comments (although frankly I don't see why "Thanks for the note" is a particularly useful addition to the sum of CT knowledge), but I realise that it's not obvious how to categorise this sort of contribution.

(in reply to ChipGreen)

Post #: 10

RE: Subscription Model - 4/13/2024 10:10:57 AM

agunner23

Posts: 10
Joined: 11/27/2020
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You could store your wine at a facility that uses its proprietary software and charges you roughly $5 per case per month that photographs and catalogs your wines for a one-time fee of $5 to $7 per case (and that is one of the cheaper facilities), and having a 140-case collection it would cost me about $1180 for the first month and then $700 a month and on top of that you have to schedule a time for the pick of your wine.

Or pay Eric for a platform that connects users and allows uploads of photos, barcoding, allowing users to share access to their cellar with other users, and tracking your wine for $320 a year plus the cost of a self-service wine storage facility (which runs me about $1400 for two lockers). I can go six days a week and quickly select the wine because, thanks to the Cellar tracker's ability to use bins, I can easily find my wine and then bulk scan them to the house. And each fridge at the house is a bin also.

With a small investment of a Dymo Labelwriter 450 ($50 on eBay) with labels (8 rolls of 500 for $21), a couple of packs of bottle tags (200 reusable tags for $20), an Inateck barcode scanner ($60), and some time to initially catalog your cellar—all of these things I have done myself and saved thousands. With an easy-to-use inventory process with the scanner, I can complete an entire cellar inventory in about 30 minutes. If you don't have the time to manage your cellar, then pay the (in my case) $8K a year from someone else to do it, but I enjoy managing my wine collection.

It is a free country, and you can do what you want, but a one-time investment of $150 and $320 a year is chump change when you manage a cellar for upwards of $300K.

(in reply to Paul852)

Post #: 11

RE: Subscription Model - 4/20/2024 9:33:41 AM

ChipGreen

Posts: 28
Joined: 1/24/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott W

Wow Eric's work for 20 years is considered a "It's a glorified spreadsheet" I have no words.

Yeah, my apologies to Eric - that was uncalled for but when you boil it down to its core it is a database. Eric has basically taken a spreadsheet and added a GUI over the top of it with increased functionality. Much like Microsoft did when they put a GUI shell over DOS and called it Windows. Most of us can agree that Windows was/is pretty great but nobody ever paid $500 for it. You can get the entire MS Office Suite for a one-time payment of under $200. Sorry but I do not see a wine tracking app as being worth $500 per year under any circumstances.

< Message edited by ChipGreen -- 4/20/2024 9:36:27 AM >

(in reply to Scott W)

Post #: 12

RE: Subscription Model - 4/20/2024 10:47:21 AM

davo22

Posts: 116
Joined: 9/6/2015
From: Prince Edward County, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChipGreen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott W

Wow Eric's work for 20 years is considered a "It's a glorified spreadsheet" I have no words.

Yeah, my apologies to Eric - that was uncalled for but when you boil it down to its core it is a database. Eric has basically taken a spreadsheet and added a GUI over the top of it with increased functionality. Much like Microsoft did when they put a GUI shell over DOS and called it Windows. Most of us can agree that Windows was/is pretty great but nobody ever paid $500 for it. You can get the entire MS Office Suite for a one-time payment of under $200. Sorry but I do not see a wine tracking app as being worth $500 per year under any circumstances.

Glorified spreadsheet and GUI shell over DOS? Do you minimize every piece of technology you come across? And databases are at the core of a whole lot of things, but that doesn't mean those platforms are trivial. And there's one hell of a difference between selling 100's of millions of a piece of software at scale to a vast commercial and consumer market vs. having a niche user subscription model for wine. So not sure how you come up with comparing Microsoft software to Cellartracker. And I'm also not sure that you really have a grasp on the business models for software licensing and subscriptions, nor on development/quality/release effort for technology in general. If Cellartracker isn't worth it to you personally then you're free to walk away from it and solve the problem yourself with a spreadsheet given you think that's all this platform is.

(in reply to ChipGreen)

Post #: 13

RE: Subscription Model - 4/20/2024 11:54:22 PM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChipGreen
Sorry but I do not see a wine tracking app as being worth $500 per year under any circumstances.

OK. But it still seems that you have not read the most basic aspect of the FAQ and do not understand our model. So I JUST want to make sure it is clear for your decision making: https://support.cellartracker.com/article/80-cellartracker-subscription

quote:

CellarTracker is a free site/app with paid subscription to access additional features. Subscription pricing is based on your cellar size. However, you can always select a different payment amount, and there is no penalty for exceeding the cellar size for your purchased tier. We will recommend sizing up at your renewal.

Here is what that means. Just as we have done for TWENTY YEARS, we RECOMMEND an annual payment to UNLOCK FEATURES based on your CELLAR SIZE.
And just has it has been for TWENTY YEARS, you have flexibility to ignore the suggestion.
So, for $40/year you can get everything.

The recommendations are actually unchanged and have been the same for 2.25 years. We last changed them about 9 years before that.

Are we clear?

< Message edited by Eric -- 4/20/2024 11:55:41 PM >

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to ChipGreen)

Post #: 14

RE: Subscription Model - 4/21/2024 8:09:04 AM

ChipGreen

Posts: 28
Joined: 1/24/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eric

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChipGreen
Sorry but I do not see a wine tracking app as being worth $500 per year under any circumstances.

OK. But it still seems that you have not read the most basic aspect of the FAQ and do not understand our model. So I JUST want to make sure it is clear for your decision making: https://support.cellartracker.com/article/80-cellartracker-subscription

quote:

CellarTracker is a free site/app with paid subscription to access additional features. Subscription pricing is based on your cellar size. However, you can always select a different payment amount, and there is no penalty for exceeding the cellar size for your purchased tier. We will recommend sizing up at your renewal.

Here is what that means. Just as we have done for TWENTY YEARS, we RECOMMEND an annual payment to UNLOCK FEATURES based on your CELLAR SIZE.
And just has it has been for TWENTY YEARS, you have flexibility to ignore the suggestion.
So, for $40/year you can get everything.

The recommendations are actually unchanged and have been the same for 2.25 years. We last changed them about 9 years before that.

Are we clear?

Crystal. I just wish it had been more clear to me in the initial communications about the change to a subscription model. In which case I never would have posted.

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 15

RE: Subscription Model - 4/22/2024 9:24:43 AM

wineismylife

Posts: 6490
Joined: 11/7/2006
From: Arlington, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChipGreen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott W

Wow Eric's work for 20 years is considered a "It's a glorified spreadsheet" I have no words.

Yeah, my apologies to Eric - that was uncalled for but when you boil it down to its core it is a database. Eric has basically taken a spreadsheet and added a GUI over the top of it with increased functionality. Much like Microsoft did when they put a GUI shell over DOS and called it Windows. Most of us can agree that Windows was/is pretty great but nobody ever paid $500 for it. You can get the entire MS Office Suite for a one-time payment of under $200. Sorry but I do not see a wine tracking app as being worth $500 per year under any circumstances.

Wait until you find out I've been selling $50,000+ per installation "GUI" systems written on top of a "database" for going on for over 30+ years.

_____________________________

Joe

Wine is like potato chips around me...if it's open, it's gone.

MyBlog @ http://www.wineismylife.net/

(in reply to ChipGreen)

Post #: 16

RE: Subscription Model - 4/22/2024 9:35:06 AM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChipGreen
You can get the entire MS Office Suite for a one-time payment of under $200.

Separate note. Have you ever read my bio or look at my LinkedIn? I am MORE than intimate with both the Office and the Windows businesses...

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to ChipGreen)

Post #: 17

RE: Subscription Model - 4/22/2024 2:09:31 PM

dad300

Posts: 848
Joined: 1/5/2020
From: South Paris, Maine
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eric

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChipGreen
You can get the entire MS Office Suite for a one-time payment of under $200.

Separate note. Have you ever read my bio or look at my LinkedIn? I am MORE than intimate with both the Office and the Windows businesses...

words escape me.. but i did literally laugh out loud loud enough to make the dog come find out what was going on.

_____________________________

Red Mountain stole my wine stained heart

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 18