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Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 7:43:57 AM

MB1991

Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2023
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I was looking through my recent ratings and noticed a lot of them are falling into the same score, if not +/- 1.....anyone else notice similar?

I'd assume this is more an issue on how I rate wine vs. that I truly picked wines with the same score (90) over the last 7 bottles. I do try to carefully be subjective but thoughts? How have you improved how you rate wine and being much more critical & gathering a better sense of what constitutes an 80 vs. a 95 for you?

Post #: 1

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 8:00:40 AM

DoubleD1969

Posts: 3594
Joined: 8/19/2008
From: New Jersey
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A question since the dawn of wine collecting. 🤔

For me:
a) I generally don’t buy wines that are average or below average (except on restaurant lists).

b) If the wine was drinking poorly,
1) I generally don’t bother entering in CT unless it is an expensive bottle.
2) Most of the time the bottle is flawed - e.g., stored improperly, corked, etc.

c) I stopped assigning scores. My score 10 years ago is more flawed than scores I would give today, and I just don’t have the patience to do mental gymnastics of rationalizing a score of 91 versus an 89 or a 93. This allows me to focus on what’s in front of me, what I’m tasting, and what I’m smelling. Maybe I will speculate if the wine has peaked or needs a few more years.

(in reply to MB1991)

Post #: 2

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 8:15:07 AM

Paul852

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From: Hong Kong
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My last 20 TNs range from 75 (mid-point of Below/Average) to 91 (middle-ish of excellent), with a median of 88.5 (towards the top of very good), so I think I'm doing OK.

< Message edited by Paul852 -- 4/9/2024 8:17:29 AM >

(in reply to DoubleD1969)

Post #: 3

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 8:33:22 AM

benny g

Posts: 64
Joined: 9/20/2017
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Checking my last 20 ratings, I find a range from 73 to 93 with the median at 88.

(in reply to Paul852)

Post #: 4

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 8:38:13 AM

DoubleD1969

Posts: 3594
Joined: 8/19/2008
From: New Jersey
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Serious Question: What is a 70ish point wine tastes like?

(in reply to benny g)

Post #: 5

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 9:02:22 AM

ChrisinCowiche

Posts: 7843
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
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My scale is essentially 11 points, 85-95. Anything under that I toss without scoring normally, anything over that is a very, very rare exception, and I think out of 1300 or so notes with scores, I have given 3-4 scores over 95. ETA, I looked and I've given 3 96's and one 98. All 4 of those I stand by, but the 98 was admittedly a bit of an exaggeration, probably should have been 95-96.

My last 20 ratings are in that range, average score 90.3, median 91, with 7 ratings of 91 out of 20. one 85, one 95, and a pretty bell curve distribution of the rest.

I use these mainly to compare against myself. I find going back to a wine 2, 5, or even 10 years later, my palate and ratings are pretty consistent. I don't look at previous notes, and my memory is not that good, but invariably my "new score" is same as my "old score" and flavor descriptors are similar. Exceptions to that more than 1 point are red flags, something off with a bottle, totally fell off a cliff, or my palate was askew for some reason. I've only adjusted score a couple of times when realizing a previous or current bottle had to be flawed, minimally corked, etc...

I respect everyone's reason for assigning scores, or choosing not to do so, but my 15+ years seems pretty well calibrated for my tastes. I do try to expand and taste new wines, and my own taste buds are the best thing I've ever found to judge whether I'll like a wine later and whether to buy or not.

Barbilocks has a very good palate, she does not assign scores, but knows what she likes, but declines "feety", "funky", "underarm" wines, which mostly is just fine with me since I get more of those. I opened a home-grown Pinot Noir yesterday, maybe 2019 or 2020 vintage; not labelled other than with a yellow dot. It opened nicely with cola notes, a bit of rusty cherry, and silky tannins. I don't score wines I've made, but that one was in the 91-92 range. Barb took one sniff, declared it "feety", so I got to enjoy it all to myself. Glad I have a few more cases.

< Message edited by ChrisinCowiche -- 4/9/2024 10:39:13 AM >

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RE: Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 9:12:39 AM

ChrisinCowiche

Posts: 7843
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From: Cowiche, WA
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Sub 80 wine score characteristics.... really bad wine, oak bomb with no fruit, highly acidic to the point of puckering, manufactured tasting, thin reedy,. I will say most of the time, the wine likely could be described as FLAWED, and if I can identify the specific flaw, VA spoilage, obvious haze/unstabilized, excessive Brett, I will mark them that way and avoid a score altogether.

I've had quite a few of these from Trader Joe's actually, when I first started exploring, and after 5-6 tries swore off any TJ wines that I did not know ahead of time.

Another place to find lots of bad wine is Tennessee, Illinois, probably Kentucky. I drove though those states last week, and over the past 40 years have sampled roadside wineries in all states. Much of it is undrinkable. The whiskey on the other hand is usually top shelf.

Lots of these during my Washington wine country exploration days too, I had no prejudgement, and randomly picked every tasting room I could find. I have not counted lately, but have seen the trends in closures to know about every decade half of Washington's wineries close or change hands. The ones around 20-30 years that are still here are absolute exceptions, and some of those go through ups and downs. This was the trend I found at Taste Wahington this year, about half of the newbies are a cut below, and imo unlikely to survive more than 5 years. Not trying to be harsh, and some wineries making bad wine are still around 30 years later, but most are not.

< Message edited by ChrisinCowiche -- 4/9/2024 9:32:08 AM >

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RE: Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 9:19:29 AM

benny g

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Well, I rated 2 of my last 20 in the 70s range. Part of my TNs for these are:
- flabby, flat, weak, sweet raspberry
- weak, watery, shallow

(in reply to ChrisinCowiche)

Post #: 8

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 11:26:38 AM

sastewart

Posts: 586
Joined: 8/16/2012
From: Greater Nashville
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Last 20 bottles - 1 88 points, 1 94 points. The rest fall in between.

(in reply to benny g)

Post #: 9

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 11:45:41 AM

fingers

Posts: 8242
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From: Santa Ana, CA
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Breakdown on my 4004 notes:

97 0.0% Notes (1)
96 0.0% Notes (2)
95 0.7% Notes (29)
94 3.0% Notes (121)
93 5.8% Notes (233)
92 10.0% Notes (401)
91 12.7% Notes (509)
90 11.9% Notes (477)
89 9.3% Notes (373)
88 8.8% Notes (351)
87 5.3% Notes (212)
86 3.6% Notes (143)
85 3.0% Notes (119)
84 2.5% Notes (100)
83 1.3% Notes (52)
82 1.1% Notes (44)
81 0.8% Notes (32)
80 0.5% Notes (20)
79 0.2% Notes (8)
78 0.3% Notes (12)
77 0.2% Notes (10)
76 0.3% Notes (11)
75 0.1% Notes (6)
74 0.1% Notes (5)
73 0.0% Notes (2)
72 0.0% Notes (1)
71 0.0% Notes (2)
70 0.0% Notes (2)
69 0.0% Notes (2)
68 0.1% Notes (3)
66 0.0% Notes (1)

Yeah, there's a big bubble between 88-92 (52.7%) but I generally know what I am buying and that it will be to my liking. Having said that, there are plenty of 85 point wines that I "like", and I use the segmented scoring method of 5 points for appearance, 15 points for bouquet, 20 points for palate, and 10 points for overall. I try to avoid the shoot-from-the-hip method of just saying, "Oh, this is a 91 pointer". I am often surprised when I add up my points and the score is either higher or lower than I would have just randomly come up with, and I think that ends up reflecting more accurately on the wine in general.

(in reply to sastewart)

Post #: 10

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 1:18:55 PM

eyewino

Posts: 365
Joined: 8/29/2018
From: Northern Iowa
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The subject of ratings will always be regularly rehashed on this forum!

The "official" CT rating system: 98-100 A+ Extraordinary
94-97 A Outstanding
90-93 A- Excellent
86-89 B+ Very Good
80-85 B Good
70-79 C Below/Average
50-69 D Avoid

I am familiar with the whole "by now I know what I like and only purchase what will be good..." argument. But I don't buy it. I also see that many CTers rate wines only within a very narrow range of scores. Finally, grade inflation is a huge problem. What are the odds the "average" wine reviewed on CT is really Very Good/Excellent (89-90 is the average rating on CT)?

I have no fixes for a flawed rating system, I just think scores should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

And FWIW, my last 20 tasting notes have ranged from 80 - 92 (with one flawed bottle and another I declined to score) with an average of 87.8. So I am not sure I am much better at this than the next person.

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 11

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/9/2024 9:50:15 PM

Paul852

Posts: 2649
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From: Hong Kong
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DoubleD1969

Serious Question: What is a 70ish point wine tastes like?

See my sub-80 TNs here: https://www.cellartracker.com/list.asp?ShowFilter=1&Table=Notes&EndScore=79&iUserOverride=595053

(in reply to DoubleD1969)

Post #: 12

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/10/2024 12:03:16 AM

BenG

Posts: 840
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From: Australian in Idaho
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852
See my sub-80 TNs here: https://www.cellartracker.com/list.asp?ShowFilter=1&Table=Notes&EndScore=79&iUserOverride=595053

Those are some good notes. I've been remiss in not scoring sub-par wines that I've had but now you've inspired me (otherwise someone will fall into the same trap that I did).

(in reply to Paul852)

Post #: 13

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/10/2024 4:54:37 AM

Paul852

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From: Hong Kong
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Thanks. I drink a lot of different wines, so it's good to remind myself, as well as being a warning for others. It is interesting though that opinions vary wildly on some of those wines (particularly from more "famous" producers like Janasse and Cornelissen).

For example:

Me: "I really don't understand the other TNs on this wine. On first opening it is tart to the point of undrinkability. With an hour or more air it becomes very average, somewhat thin, acidic rosé with rather strong tannins." 78 pts

ANOther: "Deep orange rose. Shy complex nose with hints of bruised apple, sour cherries, flowers, white pepper, and dry earth. Delicious fresh juice on the palate with a warm acid frame, flavors of blood orange and tangerine, nice bitter lift of appleskin at the back into the long finish." 93 pts

(in reply to BenG)

Post #: 14

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/10/2024 5:11:23 AM

khmark7

Posts: 11411
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From: Chicago suburbs
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I only score my wines based on the heaviness of the bottle, attractiveness of the label and the cost $$$ of the wine

All non-blind of course....

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Post #: 15

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/10/2024 5:35:22 AM

KPB

Posts: 4648
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From: Ithaca, New York
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Plus, some people who use CT just go with the community average (which it shows you when you look up the wine). Deliberately or subliminally or whatever, this has got to bias those numbers. You can even revise… you award 97, then see that the community is trending to 87, and decide to yield to the consensus!

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Post #: 16

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/10/2024 5:07:04 PM

Eduardo787

Posts: 1554
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From: Monterrey Mexico
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I am quite on a different bandwagon than most of you. I like much more a rating from a taster that I like that I follow and it is more into the very simple ways of describing a wine that the approach of explaining 20 characteristics of the flavor of a wine. I have a few followers of my tasting notes and something I have found is that they also enjoy simple words but most importantly we express how much we like or dislike a wine in terms of emotions. I am not willing to make my passion for wine a complex one, I enjoy drinking wine and I dont care a lot as of why.

Lastly, if something I have learned about this hobby is that I want to enjoy the wine and the moment, not dissect the wine as if it were something like a mathemathical problem.

" Loved the wine! very hedonistic, dense, not fake ,happy, full, everybody was pouring more and more wine and telling me how delicious it was. Red fruit all the way with very nice oak. This wine served at the right moment with the right people will fill the room with great conversations about the wine and bring the best of everybody" Yes....I understand, to some this is ZERO useful, but for some others it is what we want to hear. We do not need the kind very lenghty explanations that although they might be right , they express zero emotions but rather a very boring way of looking at wine.

My average rating is 92 pts and I think I rated 100 points only twice in 10 years or so. When I drink a wine and I hate it I dont usueally rate it because I know I am the one that does not like that style and I dont want to damage the reputation of a wine for something that I simply do not like ( as for example 90%of Italian wines )

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RE: Rating Similarity - 4/10/2024 5:35:06 PM

eyewino

Posts: 365
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From: Northern Iowa
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My friend Eduardo and I are in completely different camps in our wine preferences and in how we taste.

I love to geek out on the flavors I can pull out of the glass. I often want to analyze the tannins, acidity, and balance. More than once after I have constructed a tasting note, my wife will ask me "yes, but did you like the wine?"

"I'm not sure, let me taste it again..."

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In Vino Veritas

(in reply to Eduardo787)

Post #: 18

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/10/2024 7:04:20 PM

Eduardo787

Posts: 1554
Joined: 1/14/2020
From: Monterrey Mexico
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyewino

My friend Eduardo and I are in completely different camps in our wine preferences and in how we taste.

I love to geek out on the flavors I can pull out of the glass. I often want to analyze the tannins, acidity, and balance. More than once after I have constructed a tasting note, my wife will ask me "yes, but did you like the wine?"

"I'm not sure, let me taste it again..."

But we can still be friends...right ????

Hey you introduced me to Vina Tondonia and have a case of the 2010 thanks to you !

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Post #: 19

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/11/2024 4:09:37 AM

fanglangzhe

Posts: 373
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyewino

The subject of ratings will always be regularly rehashed on this forum!

The "official" CT rating system: 98-100 A+ Extraordinary
94-97 A Outstanding
90-93 A- Excellent
86-89 B+ Very Good
80-85 B Good
70-79 C Below/Average
50-69 D Avoid

I am familiar with the whole "by now I know what I like and only purchase what will be good..." argument. But I don't buy it. I also see that many CTers rate wines only within a very narrow range of scores. Finally, grade inflation is a huge problem. What are the odds the "average" wine reviewed on CT is really Very Good/Excellent (89-90 is the average rating on CT)?

I have no fixes for a flawed rating system, I just think scores should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

And FWIW, my last 20 tasting notes have ranged from 80 - 92 (with one flawed bottle and another I declined to score) with an average of 87.8. So I am not sure I am much better at this than the next person.

Yes, and who gives 80 points to a wine they consider "good".

(in reply to eyewino)

Post #: 20

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/11/2024 5:11:14 AM

BenG

Posts: 840
Joined: 5/5/2009
From: Australian in Idaho
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyewino

The subject of ratings will always be regularly rehashed on this forum!

The "official" CT rating system: 98-100 A+ Extraordinary
94-97 A Outstanding
90-93 A- Excellent
86-89 B+ Very Good
80-85 B Good
70-79 C Below/Average
50-69 D Avoid

I am familiar with the whole "by now I know what I like and only purchase what will be good..." argument. But I don't buy it. I also see that many CTers rate wines only within a very narrow range of scores. Finally, grade inflation is a huge problem. What are the odds the "average" wine reviewed on CT is really Very Good/Excellent (89-90 is the average rating on CT)?

I have no fixes for a flawed rating system, I just think scores should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

And FWIW, my last 20 tasting notes have ranged from 80 - 92 (with one flawed bottle and another I declined to score) with an average of 87.8. So I am not sure I am much better at this than the next person.

I know that these are the accepted rating bands for cellartracker/Robert Parker and I believe I've adjusted my scores to fit. However, my background is quite different, where 50 would be an average score (I think there are some users that actually score this way.).

It seems absurd to me that 0 to 60 is not used. Perhaps it is used when the wine is deadly/sickening - 1 to 20 is used to measure how quickly you will die after drinking it - 1 means it will take you 15 minutes to die and 20 means it will take 5 hours. 20 to 40 will measure how many days you will be on an IV drip trying to recover from drinking the wine - 20 equates to 21 days and 40 equates to 1 day. 40 to 59 might measure how many times you vomit in a day - 40 is 20 times and 59 is only once a day.

(in reply to eyewino)

Post #: 21

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/11/2024 10:24:17 AM

Echinosum

Posts: 597
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fanglangzhe
... and who gives 80 points to a wine they consider "good".

A supermarket wine buyer? Isn't that the kind of person these scoring ranges were, in part, designed for?

The average price of a bottle of wine sold in Britain is £6.31 (that was some time last year, latest figure I could find). But you can hardly buy a bottle of wine for less than £5.00. So we conclude most of the wine market is for very basic bottles of wine. There's almost no money left for the wine at £5.00. The ex-tax price of a £5.00 bottle of wine is about £2.00, and that has to cover bottling, distribution and retail margin. Only a few pence left for the actual wine. Even at £6.31, I doubt there is even £1 worth of wine in the bottle.

It seems reasonable a supermarket buyer would call a glass of wine most people are happy to drink "good", and that would be, by the standards of most of the people posting here, probably about an 80-pointer.

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Post #: 22

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/11/2024 1:14:06 PM

fingers

Posts: 8242
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
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There's also far too many 100 point scores out there. The scale needs to expand to 101

(in reply to BenG)

Post #: 23

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/11/2024 3:00:22 PM

wadcorp

Posts: 9326
Joined: 10/29/2008
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

There's also far too many 100 point scores out there. The scale needs to expand to 101

Well, Parker did to go 100+, so there's that.

.

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Post #: 24

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/11/2024 8:03:01 PM

Paul852

Posts: 2649
Joined: 6/27/2018
From: Hong Kong
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fanglangzhe
Yes, and who gives 80 points to a wine they consider "good".

I do occasionally.

(in reply to fanglangzhe)

Post #: 25

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/12/2024 6:06:34 AM

DoubleD1969

Posts: 3594
Joined: 8/19/2008
From: New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers
There's also far too many 100 point scores out there. The scale needs to expand to 101

Professional reviewers perhaps. From CT users? No.

Personally, I find it difficult to even start assigning scores until you’ve had a perfect wine for which to measure against. Otherwise, you’re just parroting what others have written.

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 26

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/12/2024 9:05:33 PM

fanglangzhe

Posts: 373
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787
My average rating is 92 pts and I think I rated 100 points only twice in 10 years or so. When I drink a wine and I hate it I dont usueally rate it because I know I am the one that does not like that style and I dont want to damage the reputation of a wine for something that I simply do not like ( as for example 90%of Italian wines )

That's too bad. I find lower scores (ONLY when accompanied with a tasting note) to be very useful in terms of deciding whether I should avoid a wine. IMO, we (the CT community) are not responsible for protecting any winery's "reputation". That's their job.

< Message edited by fanglangzhe -- 4/12/2024 9:06:53 PM >

(in reply to Eduardo787)

Post #: 27

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/12/2024 9:23:22 PM

Eduardo787

Posts: 1554
Joined: 1/14/2020
From: Monterrey Mexico
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fanglangzhe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787
My average rating is 92 pts and I think I rated 100 points only twice in 10 years or so. When I drink a wine and I hate it I dont usueally rate it because I know I am the one that does not like that style and I dont want to damage the reputation of a wine for something that I simply do not like ( as for example 90%of Italian wines )

That's too bad. I find lower scores (ONLY when accompanied with a tasting note) to be very useful in terms of deciding whether I should avoid a wine. IMO, we (the CT community) are not responsible for protecting any winery's "reputation". That's their job.

Ok, so I will start rating all white wine and champagne 50 points since I just dont like em. I think you are missing my point here, I couldnt care less about any winery reputation, but I do know that if I do not enjoy at all a style of wine I am not going to trash it. For example I do not see horror movies because I hate them, so whats the use for someone like me to rate something that I clearly do not enjoy. I rate the styles of wines I consume, not the ones I never drink like whites or champagne.

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Post #: 28

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/12/2024 9:29:27 PM

fanglangzhe

Posts: 373
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

quote:

ORIGINAL: fanglangzhe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787
My average rating is 92 pts and I think I rated 100 points only twice in 10 years or so. When I drink a wine and I hate it I dont usueally rate it because I know I am the one that does not like that style and I dont want to damage the reputation of a wine for something that I simply do not like ( as for example 90%of Italian wines )

That's too bad. I find lower scores (ONLY when accompanied with a tasting note) to be very useful in terms of deciding whether I should avoid a wine. IMO, we (the CT community) are not responsible for protecting any winery's "reputation". That's their job.

Ok, so I will start rating all white wine and champagne 50 points since I just dont like em. I think you are missing my point here, I couldnt care less about any winery reputation, but I do know that if I do not enjoy at all a style of wine I am not going to trash it. For example I do not see horror movies because I hate them, so whats the use for someone like me to rate something that I clearly do not enjoy. I rate the styles of wines I consume, not the ones I never drink like whites or champagne.

I'm not saying you should rate wines that you don't even drink (since that would be fraud). But if you happen to drink a wine that you don't like, I would look forward to reading your TN on why you didn't like it. I guess that will never happen. But I agree with you, if you write a TN that says something like "I give this wine 50 points because it is a white wine and I don't like white wines" - that would be pointless.

< Message edited by fanglangzhe -- 4/12/2024 9:35:50 PM >

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Post #: 29

RE: Rating Similarity - 4/13/2024 12:27:58 AM

BenG

Posts: 840
Joined: 5/5/2009
From: Australian in Idaho
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fanglangzhe
I'm not saying you should rate wines that you don't even drink (since that would be fraud). But if you happen to drink a wine that you don't like, I would look forward to reading your TN on why you didn't like it. I guess that will never happen. But I agree with you, if you write a TN that says something like "I give this wine 50 points because it is a white wine and I don't like white wines" - that would be pointless.

That does happen to a lesser extent with aged wines. Quite a few wine lovers prefer young wines and do not care for tertiary characteristics, so their review will say something along the lines of "The fruit has faded, drink up" and give it a low score. Others will covet those tertiary flavors and give the same wine at the same age a high score (and won't even mention the fruit).

Both tasters are correct for their tastes but when you combine their scores, the average will suggest that the wine is nothing special. However, given how uncommon it is to find aged wines with good tertiary characteristics today, for tertiary-loving palates those wines are special.

(in reply to fanglangzhe)

Post #: 30