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Good Years for White Rhone - 4/3/2014 12:44:10 PM

ericindc

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Still trying to figure out white Rhones. How they age, when and how long they shut down, etc. But for white northern Rhones (Hermitage blanc, Condrieu) and for southern white rhones (Chateauneuf-du-pape blanc) are the good years for the reds also good years for the whites? I've had a hard time finding out.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/3/2014 12:59:22 PM

Eddie

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Wine Spectator's vintage chart doesn't reveal as much as I would like (it's a subject I wish to explore too), however, I glean from it that Northern Rhone whites had good years in 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2010.

If I find out more I'll post here. You might wish to address this question to the WineBerserkers, as there are experienced drinkers of just about everything imaginable there.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/3/2014 1:01:02 PM

ericindc

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Yes, but then I have to deal with all the snark, drama and belittlement over there.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/3/2014 1:11:28 PM

Eddie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc

Yes, but then I have to deal with all the snark, drama and belittlement over there.

It took me a little while to realize that it wasn't just me..

Some days it's like a bar fight in a porta-potty over there. Big egos and alcohol are a volatile mix.

That's why I spend a lot more time over here.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/3/2014 7:37:03 PM

champagneinhand

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eddie

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc

Yes, but then I have to deal with all the snark, drama and belittlement over there.

It took me a little while to realize that it wasn't just me.. Some days it's like a bar fight in a porta-potty over there. Big egos and alcohol are a volatile mix.

That's why I spend a lot more time over here.

Its kind of like people driving in cars on the same road. Behavior that would never be tolerated by humans standing in line for some attraction or purpose. People in cars, don't pay attention, flip people off, threaten them with fists, pick their noses at stop lights...

Pretty much how I find much of the discussions on other boards. In person if people said those things to another, in most cases you might end up sliding face first down the entire length of a bar, before crashing to the ground. It floors me that people get this, I can be a jerk or say anything because I am bullet-proof, but at least at WB, they make you use your real name, and if somebody does print really horrid stuff, their is still slander/libel if it ever got that far, or in the case of America, I have seen some pissed off or humiliated people do all sort of treacherous things.

Best to be civilized and act like we are the adults and give people the proper respect and courtesy. If I am guilty of not doing so, its usually because of typos, too much wine, and I almost always ask for forgiveness. Saw this here, on a thread last week that was NWR, I'm sure we all did. Not for this forum.

anyhow, this is a great question. I have always thought if it is good for the reds, then the white usually follow, as acidity is desired in both varietals, but I would be interested on a real/ informed opinion as opposed to my guessing. I think that in my limited experience, that Condrieu ages very nicely and usually gets better with up to a decade. I does have a very stupid phase, where you might get frustrated drinking it, as I have had this before.

On S. Rhone, I look to Guigal CdR blanc, as its dirty cheap, tastes very good, though has some kind of congener that will give me a bit of headache if I over do on the amount. Love the florals of Blanc Rhones. Again great question and thread starter Eric.

< Message edited by champagneinhand -- 4/4/2014 6:10:51 AM >

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/4/2014 12:21:45 AM

Ricardo

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I think it's the alcohol that may be giving you the headache CIH! Some (most?) of these Southern Rhone whites weigh in at 15%.

Cdp whites are expensive for what they are but I've had some white Vacqueyras that has been good value, drunk within 2-3 years it has a nice floral quality that makes a good aperitif, but here again the alcohol content can be a problem. I'm not sure that good years for red and white necessarily co-incide though...

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/4/2014 5:36:55 AM

grizzlymarmot

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Rhone white wines are beloved by the people of Lyon (who chuckle at their northern neighbors who spend more money on the wine than the food!) Young Viognier served with diverse cooking styles of that city is classic. These are generally a Vin de Table preparation - and the best vintage is last year - if you get my drift.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/4/2014 7:47:49 AM

ericindc

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Part of my problem is that sourcing older bottles is very, very hard. One of the best Rhone Viognier's i've ever had is a vin de table from Francois Villard. The 2007 vin de table Viognier contours has been drinking great over the last year or so.

I'm suspecting that Condrieu/viognier needs 2-3 years, but not sure how long they will last or whether they go through a dumb phase for some length of time and then wake up at 10 or so.

As for other hermitage blanc, I have very few data points, but they are all young. The tasting notes on the older ones are all over the map, and given the huge cost, not sure how much I want to experiment.

As for CdP blancs, I tend to like them after about 4-6 years, but I've never had one older than 10. Again, notes are all over the place.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/4/2014 8:59:41 AM

DoubleD1969

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Like most wines, people either enjoy them younger or older. It's a good idea to source a couple of older ones +10-15 years to see if you like the profile. Personally, I am finding that I prefer most white wines (with the exception of vintage Champagne) with less than 8-10 years on them especially Rhone varietals.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/4/2014 10:16:05 AM

grizzlymarmot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc

Part of my problem is that sourcing older bottles is very, very hard. One of the best Rhone Viognier's i've ever had is a vin de table from Francois Villard. The 2007 vin de table Viognier contours has been drinking great over the last year or so.

I'm suspecting that Condrieu/viognier needs 2-3 years, but not sure how long they will last or whether they go through a dumb phase for some length of time and then wake up at 10 or so.

As for other hermitage blanc, I have very few data points, but they are all young. The tasting notes on the older ones are all over the map, and given the huge cost, not sure how much I want to experiment.

As for CdP blancs, I tend to like them after about 4-6 years, but I've never had one older than 10. Again, notes are all over the place.

With respect to the Viognier,t I think that if the vintner has an exceptional year, he or she will make a sweeter wine with some residual sugar so it will be able to age. That of course would be hard to come by outside the area.
I never know what to make of the white CdP. But I get concerned about the fact that if the grape growing area is primo then they would plant it for the more renowned red. I do enjoy a white Grenache, but I like them in a simple style. Those fancy CdP bottles with the medieval script send my mind in the wrong direction for what comes out.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/6/2014 6:43:38 AM

KPB

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I would follow the reviews in International Wine Cellar (Josh Raynolds), and try some high-ranked wines that he describes in ways that sound appealing. You get a wide range of styles.

I tend to like wines with floral noses and a satiny mouthfeel, but also with the acidity to not get flabby. Some Viognier suffers from low acidity, so this drives me towards white hermitage for that region. Then you get some wines vinified to drink early, while others age well and get a very honeyed, rich flavor profile with fifteen years of age. (At the halfway point many of those same wines are very oxidized and can be undefinable, so you need patience)

Then there are cheaper wines that are good with fish and drink well young. I would say that there are many such bottles, and that they can lack character, but you are seeing more and more of them on the market. Very nice if you are in the area for a few weeks and need wine for dinners... But they don't make for particularly memorable experiences. Good QPR in many cases.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/6/2014 6:47:58 AM

Eddie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

Then there are cheaper wines that are good with fish and drink well young. I would say that there are many such bottles, and that they can lack character, but you are seeing more and more of them on the market. Very nice if you are in the area for a few weeks and need wine for dinners... But they don't make for particularly memorable experiences. Good QPR in many cases.

In that category, I bought some 2012 Domaine Lafond Lirac Blanc Roc-Epine, and have been very pleased with it. In fact I plan to acquire more. Not the stuff you'd want to age for 15 years, but just the thing to drink young.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/6/2014 7:23:44 AM

Yossarian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I think it's the alcohol that may be giving you the headache CIH! Some (most?) of these Southern Rhone whites weigh in at 15%.

Cdp whites are expensive for what they are but I've had some white Vacqueyras that has been good value, drunk within 2-3 years it has a nice floral quality that makes a good aperitif, but here again the alcohol content can be a problem. I'm not sure that good years for red and white necessarily co-incide though...

Ricardo speak truth regards Vacqueyras - I'd never had white ones before this year and they are very good. I must admit though that Southern Rhone doesn't really feel like a natural place for white wines though - I prefer my whites a bit leaner and firmer. When I've ever had a CDP blanc I tend to prefer them younger (under 5-7 years) before they get a bit chewy.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/6/2014 8:47:44 AM

KPB

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Oh, and for years: there hasn't been a poor year for white Rhone wines in the last fifteen. The very best years depend a bit on your style preferences, but you simply don't get bad years lately -- even 2002, when they had torrential rains, still gave reasonable white Rhone wines at least for fairly early consumption. And to be frank, while Parker always raves about the top Rhone whites in the hot years (like 2003, for example), to me they can become exotic and overdone when it gets that extreme. You want to follow reviews for the very expensive white Hermitage wines like Chave's blanc, or Chapoutier's l'Ermite Blanc, but frankly anyone who is about to spend $175 on a bottle of wine would presumably do their homework first. At the sane end of the market, you really can't go wrong in terms of vintages for reasonably early consumption.

Check out the rose options too. As you push down into the south, you get some fantastic rose bottles for early (e.g. instantly on release) drinking, obviously, but just amazing when it gets very hot with salads and so forth. Chateau Simone in Palette (www.chateau-simone.fr) would be a good place to start, although they are further south than you asked about. They make a fantastic white wine too, a bit crisper than the ones people have talked about above, and with a distinctive grassy aroma that I think is awesome -- kind of like a Sancerre, but in fact the varietal is totally different. But in rose, the style they make (and they are one of the best) is inexpensive, really refreshing, and generally speaking are a bit lower in alcohol too. For people who live in the hot parts of the US I would recommend chasing that down and buying cases.

< Message edited by KPB -- 4/6/2014 8:52:27 AM >

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/6/2014 8:55:16 AM

Yossarian

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KPM is a wise man. Especially with regards to Rosé - Ricardo is a bit of an expert on this as well.

Out of interest - what does a really mature rhone white taste like? I imagine they are quite wooly and soft and flabby - but those are my preconceptions working.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/6/2014 10:16:00 AM

KPB

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The best are the high-end northern white Hermitage. At 12 years or so, they come off a bit like a dry pinot gris from Zind Humbrecht. Very aromatic, with honey notes, hazelnuts, golden gooseberries. Sometimes you find orange marmalade or other citrus notes. Then you get a satiny mouthfeel, and often a fairly structured, acidic profile... Not sherry, but certainly not flabby. And they often have a nearly saline mineral finish. Thomas Jefferson felt they were the best white wines...

But varietals matter. The average CDP white can be more like a sherry by age 15. And Beaucastel has a Rousanne VV that really is in a class by itself. Reminds me of the vin Jaune d'Arbois.

Most of these drink well young, then become awful for ~8 years, then can be enjoyed again.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/6/2014 7:01:29 PM

khmark7

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I really enjoy southern Rhone whites, but MUCH prefer them young, really young, when the fruit and acidity is vibrant. Have yet to enjoy one with any age.

Sadly, I lack any experience with northern Rhone whites. Very difficult to find and when you do they are expensive. Viognier is a tricky grape.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/7/2014 3:43:03 AM

Ricardo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yossarian

KPM is a wise man. Especially with regards to Rosé - Ricardo is a bit of an expert on this as well.

Out of interest - what does a really mature rhone white taste like? I imagine they are quite wooly and soft and flabby - but those are my preconceptions working.

Not wrong IMO...part of the problem for me with whites from this region is what to eat with them, they lack the vibrant acidity of cooler climes such as Sancerre; Chablis; and of course Muscadet, so they don't get a look in when we eat seafood.

As an aperitif they have to compete in our house with gin; whisky; beer; champagne; and pastis..so they don't have a chance. My one exception (if you can get your head around the idea of a sweet aperitif) is Muscat de Baumes de Venise which makes a great unpretentious kick-off drink, especially if you're in the mood to get a buzz going fairly quickly!

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/7/2014 5:59:11 AM

Yossarian

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Ricardo,

Our house aperatif is The Domaine Bernadin Beaumes de Venise....lovely wine.

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/7/2014 6:41:50 AM

KPB

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For those older bottles, a classic match would be poultry in a creamy sauce, or fish but again in a fairly rich sauce.

< Message edited by KPB -- 4/7/2014 6:42:05 AM >

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RE: Good Years for White Rhone - 4/7/2014 4:34:21 PM

khmark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yossarian

KPM is a wise man. Especially with regards to Rosé - Ricardo is a bit of an expert on this as well.

Out of interest - what does a really mature rhone white taste like? I imagine they are quite wooly and soft and flabby - but those are my preconceptions working.

Not wrong IMO...part of the problem for me with whites from this region is what to eat with them, they lack the vibrant acidity of cooler climes such as Sancerre; Chablis; and of course Muscadet, so they don't get a look in when we eat seafood.

As an aperitif they have to compete in our house with gin; whisky; beer; champagne; and pastis..so they don't have a chance. My one exception (if you can get your head around the idea of a sweet aperitif) is Muscat de Baumes de Venise which makes a great unpretentious kick-off drink, especially if you're in the mood to get a buzz going fairly quickly!

Great pairing would be Chilean Sea Bass, Grouper, or Moroccan lamb in a spicy but slightly sweet sauce.

Everything is an aperitif for that Yossarian character.

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