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Any barrel experts - 8/31/2023 10:18:41 AM   
gruqqt@gmail.com

 

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I am tasting an odd balsa wood like almost spice tone in some recent California wines 2020 Quilt Napa Cab, all 2020, 2021 Seghesio Zins. Assuming these wineries are using oak barrels as claimed, has a new barrel source come into use? I find the taste different and offensive but I could see others not agreeing.
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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/1/2023 9:47:08 AM   
BobMilton

 

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Any thought of smoke damage?

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/2/2023 7:34:55 AM   
gruqqt@gmail.com

 

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No, it's wood - both Seghesio and Quilt say they use barrels but highly artificial almost fragrant dry light only comparison I have is to holding balsa wood airplane parts in my mouth 60 years ago or walking into a drying kiln.

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/2/2023 5:08:59 PM   
KPB

 

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There is a variety of Brett that can give a wine a sort of “oak sap” character, as if it was steeped in oak sawdust for a few years. Naturally, this makes the wine disgusting. I’ve only run into it on Rhône varietals. But it could fit your description.

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/2/2023 10:44:06 PM   
hankj

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gruqqt@gmail.com

No, it's wood - both Seghesio and Quilt say they use barrels but highly artificial almost fragrant dry light only comparison I have is to holding balsa wood airplane parts in my mouth 60 years ago or walking into a drying kiln.



Interesting. Winemakers can put anything they want in wine as long as it's not poison and they don't have to list it on the label. Maybe it's some sort of new additive that a wine chemical rep sold a couple of winemakers on? Hard to say.

I'm trying to recall what balsa would smells like, sort of like Cottonwood right? Like that odd slightly decaying swampish smell that all really lightweight woods seem to have?

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/3/2023 10:27:48 AM   
gruqqt@gmail.com

 

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Thanks, not Brett. All new bottlings of Seghesio Zin and a few Napa Cabs like Quilt I've tried excluding Beringer. Were it not for the representations of oak barrel aging by both wineries I would guess artificial oaking. The taste is almost dry scented if you are too young to know balsa, cedar slats used for lining closets. I suppose no seller of cheaper alternately sourced oak barrels can be expected to fess up.

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/7/2023 4:56:55 PM   
agbanker

 

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Some wineries use neutral oak barrels which don't impart much oak flavor so they add either oak chips or oak spirals to obtain the aromas and flavors of oak. By doing this they can claim the wine is barrel aged but the barrels are just a vessel and don't add much character to the wine. Since new French oak barrels are $1500+ this is an inexpensive way to make barrel aged wine. I have had several different wines made this way and I find they are inconsistent. It's possible you are getting the balsa flavor from wine made this way.

Here is a link to the products I'm talking about - https://www.infusionspiral.com/

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/8/2023 3:54:01 AM   
KPB

 

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I think this is strain of Brett I was mentioning. A spoilage yeast.

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/8/2023 6:16:49 AM   
DoubleD1969

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: agbanker

Some wineries use neutral oak barrels which don't impart much oak flavor so they add either oak chips or oak spirals to obtain the aromas and flavors of oak. By doing this they can claim the wine is barrel aged but the barrels are just a vessel and don't add much character to the wine. Since new French oak barrels are $1500+ this is an inexpensive way to make barrel aged wine. I have had several different wines made this way and I find they are inconsistent. It's possible you are getting the balsa flavor from wine made this way.

Here is a link to the products I'm talking about - https://www.infusionspiral.com/

If I were to guess, it would be this ^.

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/8/2023 12:02:10 PM   
gruqqt@gmail.com

 

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I agree with agbanker and DoubleD, slats or chips or sawdust. Woe is me, wood sensitive. Next time you go to Home Depot or Lowes, smell the boxed cedar slats Memorable. Languedoc, Roussillon wines I can't drink and I'm sure it's the barrels. California has outlawed sale of out of state pork not raised "correctly" but no need to require wineries to disclose additives or truth in oaking.

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/8/2023 5:24:33 PM   
KPB

 

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The Brett issue I’ve described is definitely not due to wood chips. Yet the wine tastes like it was filtered through oak sawdust! As I said, it is a form of spoilage.

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/8/2023 5:43:44 PM   
DoubleD1969

 

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The problem with your theory Ken is that the OP is picking up the notes from multiple bottles, multiple producers and multiple vintages.

< Message edited by DoubleD1969 -- 9/8/2023 5:44:42 PM >

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/9/2023 5:20:00 AM   
KPB

 

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Same for me with this form of Brett! Perhaps he and I are just more aware of this particular Brett character. I’m also a TCA “super taster,” and pick that up when some people don’t notice it at all.

The concept of grossing sawdust or wood chips into high end wine is kind of bizarre. Sure, for a gallon of Gallo “hearty burgundy”. But people making higher quality wine generally don’t do that sort of manipulation. You actually do see megapurple in higher end California wines from producers trying to consistently hit that very ripe, sweet character spot that the market favors, but more often they get what they are after by harvesting a bit late or extracting a bit more than you might expect, or blending in something sort of juice that turned out to be a bit thick and sludgy.

So for higher end bottles, I really wouldn’t be betting that anyone is encountering neutral oak plus sawdust.

Bretty wines, though, are ubiquitous. Brett is a family of yeasts, and in fact imparts a very enjoyable spicy/grassy character if you get the right strain, and don’t let it get out of hand. On bottling SO2 kills the yeast cells. You can also kill Brett with a product they extract from certain strains of algae.

The reason this issue of Brett is more of a problem lately centers on the popular trend towards natural wines and minimal use of sulfur or other additives. Brett (and TCA) can both occur in the bottle/cork. After all, these are living things, and they grow. Warmer shipping and storage is a factor too: the shipping change isn’t fully air conditioned and so as the climate warms, the bottles reaching us have seen more heat between winery cellar door and consumer.

I agree that with neutral oak, wineries looking for more of an oak character might be frustrated that they aren’t getting those flavors and aromas. But I think the more common answer is to buy some new oak that expresses toasted almonds and vanilla and crème caramel kinds of things, and then to blend some of that with your neutral oak juice to get the mix you want.

So Brett slips past all of this, and you have to expect we will see more of it if the minimal intervention fad remains in force. There are people who claim to get migraines from wines that have SO2 in them (I myself am more at risk of migraine from histamines, also a fermentation product, but seen frequently on orange wines and other natural ones, or on wines still in active fermentation — I’ve learned the painful way to spit every drop if I’m offered a taste from a wine that is still actively working!)

Summary: there are a ton of ways to end up with a troubled bottle of wine. Brett is a biggie as is TCA, but both come in many strains and with Brett, the annoying thing is that low doses really add a lot of complexity to a wine that might otherwise have been a bit dull. But that plays against climate change and the global preference for “natural” wines… and conversely, handfuls of wood chunks or sawdust are not likely to show up in expensive wines. It just isn’t done.

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RE: Any barrel experts - 9/9/2023 9:57:45 AM   
gruqqt@gmail.com

 

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Ken,

Although I disagree with you there are articles you can find on Google Scholar confirming the difficulties in removing Brett from oak barrels. I disagree because every bottling over a couple of vintages from a few wineries would not all have Brett. I inquired about barrels to one winery which did not reply. I've had the same issue with some low end Cali Cabs which have a distinct artificial sweet vanilla taste I assume to be chips.

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