Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tier St Emilion

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Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tier St... - 7/1/2022 2:55:32 PM

WineGuyCO

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I should have asked this question while I was in St Emilion but I didn’t think of it until I got home. We all know who the Top Chateau are: Ausone, Cheval Blanc, Angelus, Pavie, Figeac, Tertre Roteboeuf, Troplong Mondot, Clos Fortet, Valandraud etc.

I’m going to put together a spreadsheet of St Emilion Grand Cru and rank them by CT score but that will take some time because there are so many names. I thought in the meantime some of you might have already tried some of these names. Under the radar names or Chateau whose quality is on the rise. I’m interested in these “lesser names” in the good years…09, 10, 15, 16 & 18. In the good vintages these wines will be very good.

Most of these names are going to be in the $40-$60 range if purchased early and even less in some cases. Drinking wines that represent value and not special occasion wines like the top Chateau.

Here are a few names I see that get decent CT scores and just wondered if any of you could add some names you like. The first three names I already know since I’ve had them and they are great but wanting some other names. There are many more names not even mentioned here so feel free to add them. Thanks

Clos De L’Oratoire
Monbousquet
Barde Haut

Clos Des Jacobins
Laroque
Tour St Christophe
Fleur Cardinale
Bellevue
Fonplegade

< Message edited by WineGuyCO -- 7/1/2022 3:05:21 PM >

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/1/2022 11:20:13 PM

jmcmchi

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I like Fleur Cardinale and Monbousquet

Clos des Jacobins was one of the first recommendations a French friend gave me 50 years ago while I was living there

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/2/2022 6:51:40 AM

WineGuyCO

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I love Monbousquet. I need to try Fleur Cardinale as it gets good scores. I’m guessing the only folks who can answer my question are Professional tasters who get to try lots of these Chateau. There are just too many Chateau and most likely many of them don’t get exported to the US Market. I’m happy to be the giunea pig and try a bunch of these since St Emilion is my favorite Bordeaux Region. Still waiting for more responses though.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/2/2022 11:38:43 AM

skifree

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I do think there is a difference between the Premier GC chateau and those that are "merely" GC.

For the former, I particularly like Beau-Sejour Becot (amazing limestone cellars), and I truly enjoyed the case of 2000 Trotte Vielle I purchased 20 years ago. The 2019 Beau-Sejour has gotten great reviews and should be available now. I also loved the 2016 Pavie Macquin when I tried it.

At the lower end, I look at both vintage and estate. I did really like de Pressac when I visited in 2014. I also have some Barde Haut and Fleur Cardinale from 2009.
I have the 2019 La Dominique on order.

Love the thread idea.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/2/2022 1:40:13 PM

WineGuyCO

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Yes, I was talking about the Grand Cru Classe names and not Premier Grand Cru Classe. Ones at a lower price point. All of the Premiers are amazing but almost all of them will be $100 plus entry level in the good vintages.

I got spoiled in the 1982-1990 era when I bought Angelus, Figeac & Pavie every year. I’ve migrated down to Canon La Gaffeliere, Canon, La Gaffeliere, Beasejour Becot & Larcis Ducasse.

I was interested in some lower priced names like Monbousquet, Clos de L’Oratoire & Clos Des Jacobins. Some others in this price range have been mentioned. Fleur Cardinale, Barde Haut etc. I might try some Ch Fonplegade and others. I will be a St Emilion expert soon.

< Message edited by WineGuyCO -- 7/2/2022 1:41:35 PM >

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/2/2022 3:00:17 PM

WineGuyCO

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Thought I'd just have fun with this for those interested. There are 18 Premier Grand Cru Classe and 63 Grand Cru Classe. Here are the 63:

L'Arrossee
Balestard la Tonnelle
Barde Haut
Bellefont Belcier
Bellevue
Berliquet
Cadet Bon
Cap de Mourlin
Le Chatelet
Chauvin
Clos de Sarpe
La Clotte
La Commanderie
Corbin
Cote de Baleau
La Couspaude
Dassault
Destieux
La Dominique
Faugeres
Farie de Souchard
De Ferrand
Fleur Cardinale
La Fleur Morange Mathilde
Fombrauge
Fonplegade
Franc Mayne
Grand Corbin
Grand Corbin Despagne
Grand Mayne
Les Grandes Murailles
Grand Pontet
Guadet
Haut Sarpe
Clos des Jacobins
Couvent des Jabobins
Jean Faure
Laniote
Larmande
Laroque
Laroze Clos la Madeline
La Marzelle
Monbousquet
Moulin du Cadet
Clos de L'Oratoire
Pavie Decesse
Peby Faugeres
Petit Faurie de Soutard
De Pressac
Le Prieure
Quinault l'Enclos
Ripeau
Rochebelle
Saint Georges Cote Pavie
Clos Saint Martin
Sansonnet
La Serre
Soutard
Tertre Daugay
La Tour Figeac
Villemaurine
Yon Fig

< Message edited by WineGuyCO -- 7/4/2022 8:21:31 AM >

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/2/2022 3:03:45 PM

WineGuyCO

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Just a quick look and one of these really rises to the top: Peby Faugeres. A name I've never heard of before but apparently there are some like me looking for the up and comers. It's too late for this one as it's been discovered although not by me or anyone here mentioning it. Average score for the 2015 and 2016 is 96 points with an average cost of $150. Let's find the next one.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/2/2022 3:07:29 PM

khmark7

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Nothing recently, but in 2016 i purchased La Tour Figeac and some Cote de Baleau. Have yet to open these, but i enjoyed what i tasted when they were young.

Honestly if i want a more affordable Merlot or Cabernet i typically have to look away from Bordeaux because the stores around here only import the premium labels and we don't see the basic Bordeaux like they see in Europe.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/2/2022 3:07:33 PM

WineGuyCO

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Here's another one...Clos de Sarpe. Never heard of it. Average score of 93 for the 2015 and 2016 and an average price of $70. This is still a good price for a top St Emilion even at $70 although I paid $70 for the 2015 Beasejour Becot.

< Message edited by WineGuyCO -- 7/4/2022 8:22:47 AM >

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/2/2022 3:09:32 PM

WineGuyCO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

Nothing recently, but in 2016 i purchased La Tour Figeac and some Cote de Baleau. Have yet to open these, but i enjoyed what i tasted when they were young.

Honestly if i want a more affordable Merlot or Cabernet i typically have to look away from Bordeaux because the stores around here only import the premium labels and we don't see the basic Bordeaux like they see in Europe.

You might have to hit up one of the East Coast Retailers. Saratoga, Rye Brook, Empire of Wines, B21 etc. I just bought 2016 Clos des Jacobins from Saratoga for $47 per.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/2/2022 3:47:35 PM

khmark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WineGuyCO

quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

Nothing recently, but in 2016 i purchased La Tour Figeac and some Cote de Baleau. Have yet to open these, but i enjoyed what i tasted when they were young.

Honestly if i want a more affordable Merlot or Cabernet i typically have to look away from Bordeaux because the stores around here only import the premium labels and we don't see the basic Bordeaux like they see in Europe.

You might have to hit up one of the East Coast Retailers. Saratoga, Rye Brook, Empire of Wines, B21 etc. I just bought 2016 Clos des Jacobins from Saratoga for $47 per.

Oh i used to do that, but our state laws suck and politicians suck and special interests suck.....you get the picture.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/2/2022 8:00:11 PM

WineGuyCO

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One of those States…

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/3/2022 3:18:53 AM

Davidh.

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I recently had the 2010 Monbousquet. A friend had thought for 10 years that he had a case of Monbousquet Blanc in his cellar (as said the invoice). We opened it last week and it was the rouge. A pleasant surprise. Although it has many years to go it was so enjoyable already. I think it is undervalued, but I love Perse wines so...

Laroque and Fleur Cardinale are great. When having a look at wines even below your bandwidth try Chateau Les Gravieres or Fonbel.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/3/2022 5:33:49 AM

jmcmchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Davidh.

I recently had the 2010 Monbousquet. A friend had thought for 10 years that he had a case of Monbousquet Blanc in his cellar (as said the invoice). We opened it last week and it was the rouge. A pleasant surprise. Although it has many years to go it was so enjoyable already. I think it is undervalued, but I love Perse wines so...

Laroque and Fleur Cardinale are great. When having a look at wines even below your bandwidth try Chateau Les Gravieres or Fonbel.

Second on Fonbel

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/3/2022 7:19:31 AM

WineGuyCO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Davidh.

I recently had the 2010 Monbousquet. A friend had thought for 10 years that he had a case of Monbousquet Blanc in his cellar (as said the invoice). We opened it last week and it was the rouge. A pleasant surprise. Although it has many years to go it was so enjoyable already. I think it is undervalued, but I love Perse wines so...

Laroque and Fleur Cardinale are great. When having a look at wines even below your bandwidth try Chateau Les Gravieres or Fonbel.

I love Monbousquet at its price point. I’ve had the best recent years. 00, 05, 09 & 10. I have 10, 12, 15 & 16 in the cellar. Always a great value like Clos deL’Oratoire. This wine is stupid cheap for 15, 16 & 18.

Don’t know Les Gravieres & Fonbel. Don’t know either of these. Thanks for the Recs.

< Message edited by WineGuyCO -- 7/3/2022 7:25:10 AM >

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/3/2022 7:24:08 AM

WineGuyCO

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So I checked out Jeff Leves Wine Cellar Insider page and he has tasted all or most of these names. When combined with CT scores there are several of these names that rise to the top.

I’m probably going to buy six bottles of maybe 6-8 of these in 15 & 16. It will just be fun to try some new names. I think most of us buy the same Producers from year to year so will be fun to add some new names. Especially at this price point. Variety is the spice of life.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/3/2022 8:53:48 AM

Wine Grove

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Rick, you enabler!!! Monbousquet here we come

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/3/2022 9:35:33 AM

WineGuyCO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wine Grove

Rick, you enabler!!! Monbousquet here we come

I like Clos de L’Oratoire almost as much at a lower price point. I still think you can buy the 15 & 16 for under $50. Going for maximum enabler points. Check out Wine Exchange. They seem to have a lot of these 2nd tier St Emilion names.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/5/2022 10:04:14 AM

jeff leve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WineGuyCO

So I checked out Jeff Leves Wine Cellar Insider page and he has tasted all or most of these names. When combined with CT scores there are several of these names that rise to the top.

I’m probably going to buy six bottles of maybe 6-8 of these in 15 & 16. It will just be fun to try some new names. I think most of us buy the same Producers from year to year so will be fun to add some new names. Especially at this price point. Variety is the spice of life.

Hey, yes I know and taste all those wines on a regular basis. If I can make a suggestion, instead of looking at scores on their own, you should read about the styles of each of those wines from writers that in your opinion, accurately describe what a wine is like. Using 3 examples you expressed interest in...

Clos de Sarpe is a big, tannic, floral, salty, mineral-driven wine that develops incredible complexity with aging.

Monbousquet is a lighter, riper, moderately oaky, round, lush style that shows well early.

Peby Faugeres is a powerful, ripe, deep, dark, opulent wine with stunning textural components.

Style over points, but points and style matter.

You can read my site for details on perhaps 125-150 different wines from Saint Emilion, their history, terroir, and approach to winemaking. https://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/bordeaux-wine-producer-profiles/bordeaux/st-emilion/

< Message edited by jeff leve -- 7/5/2022 10:23:56 AM >

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/5/2022 2:25:42 PM

WineGuyCO

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Jeff...Thanks for weighing in here. I have been spending lots of time going through your website. I have been drinking St Emilion since 1982 Vintage and bought Angelus, Pavie & Figeac most years until 1990. I'm not sure I could tell which is which in a blind tasting. I know I like the Cotes wines bit not sure exactly where this area is. Obviously down the hill from St Emilion toward the train station where Ausone, La Gaffeliere, Canon La Gaffeliere and up the hill where Canon & Angelus are.

I obviously like the richer style of these wines like anyone else. Any Grand Cru Classe names in here you like that arent as well known? Also, how about any of these names you have in your cellar. I'm going to try Corbin I know isn't Cotes and Fonplegade. Is Fonplegade Cotes? I see it has a more Pomerol profile mostly Merlot. Faugeres was another name I thought of trying. I bought some Fombrauges to try also. Any other suggestions you have I appreciate. Thanks

< Message edited by WineGuyCO -- 7/5/2022 5:26:50 PM >

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/5/2022 4:09:38 PM

Wine Grove

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Rick... the peby and the monsbousquet have me intrigued. I have enjoyed the Clos de Oratoire before as a cellar defender to a few of my CLG and La mondottes I'm hanging onto. I think when they were released the '15 and '16 were in the $30-35 range, quite a good value

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/5/2022 5:34:07 PM

WineGuyCO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wine Grove

Rick... the peby and the monsbousquet have me intrigued. I have enjoyed the Clos de Oratoire before as a cellar defender to a few of my CLG and La mondottes I'm hanging onto. I think when they were released the '15 and '16 were in the $30-35 range, quite a good value

CLG and La Mondotte were never in the $30-$35 range. Monbousquet either. Maybe Clos de L’Oratoire on futures. Peby Faugeres is $150-$200 so I’m sure it’s great but not what I’m looking for here. There is plenty of good St Emilion depending on price. Fleur Cardinale is another I will add.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/5/2022 6:46:42 PM

jeff leve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WineGuyCO

Jeff...Thanks for weighing in here. I have been spending lots of time going through your website. I have been drinking St Emilion since 1982 Vintage and bought Angelus, Pavie & Figeac most years until 1990. I'm not sure I could tell which is which in a blind tasting. I know I like the Cotes wines bit not sure exactly where this area is. Obviously down the hill from St Emilion toward the train station where Ausone, La Gaffeliere, Canon La Gaffeliere and up the hill where Canon & Angelus are.

I obviously like the richer style of these wines like anyone else. Any Grand Cru Classe names in here you like that arent as well known? Also, how about any of these names you have in your cellar. I'm going to try Corbin I know isn't Cotes and Fonplegade. Is Fonplegade Cotes? I see it has a more Pomerol profile mostly Merlot. Faugeres was another name I thought of trying. I bought some Fombrauges to try also. Any other suggestions you have I appreciate. Thanks

A couple of points. Fonplegade, which I like is not like Pomerol. Fonplegade is on the Cotes. It is a fabulous wine that ages well and sells for a more than a fair price. Silky, fresh, mineral-driven and aromatic. Fombrauge which you named is quite different, riper, richer, darker, more plush, and it drinks well young.

Best is to look at the in-bottle tasting notes from 2019 which I recently published as you can see notes and descriptions for almost 200 wines. That is a reasonable look at the appellation. You or others can ask specific questions here and I am happy to respond.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/9/2022 3:52:07 AM

racerchris

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I think it was a bottle of 2000 Peby Faugeres that was my WOTN a few years ago, at the same table as a 2014 Macdonald and Maybach Materium.
Tour St Christophe has been on a roll of late.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/9/2022 9:34:16 AM

WineGuyCO

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Peby Faugeres gets amazing reviews but it is one of the more expensive Grand Cru Classe wines. Tour St Christophe is on my list and is quite reasonably priced. So far I have half cases of Barde Haut, Clos Des Jacobins, Fombrauge and Fonplegade. I’m going to buy at least 4 more half cases of these names to try and figure out the different styles Jeff is talking about. Another win is all of these wines are reasonably priced.

< Message edited by WineGuyCO -- 7/9/2022 9:35:15 AM >

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/9/2022 11:26:30 AM

Eduardo787

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Chateau Laroque. This wine is incredibly undervalued at $35 or so. I believe this wine will be soon in the $60-$80 range and not because of inflation

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/9/2022 11:43:01 AM

Eduardo787

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

Chateau Laroque. This wine is incredibly undervalued at $35 or so. I believe this wine will be soon in the $60-$80 range and not because of inflation

Ooops, sorry, you already metioned it

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/9/2022 11:50:40 AM

Chip Merlot

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quote:

Tour St Christophe has been on a roll of late.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/11/2022 9:39:25 AM

jeff leve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WineGuyCO

Peby Faugeres gets amazing reviews but it is one of the more expensive Grand Cru Classe wines. Tour St Christophe is on my list and is quite reasonably priced. So far I have half cases of Barde Haut, Clos Des Jacobins, Fombrauge and Fonplegade. I’m going to buy at least 4 more half cases of these names to try and figure out the different styles Jeff is talking about. Another win is all of these wines are reasonably priced.

FWIW, Peby Faugeres has better terroir, lower yields, older vines, and a much smaller level of production than the other wines listed. It is better wine. It is a candidate for Premier Cru Classe.

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RE: Best Up & Coming St Emilion Chateau or Best 2nd Tie... - 7/11/2022 10:00:32 AM

WineGuyCO

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Jeff…The current retail prices forPeby Faugeres is already higher than many of thePremier Grand Cru Classe wines so no doubt the quality is there. St Emilion is going to reclassify again this year so we will see. Angelus, Ausone, Cheval Blanc and La Gaffeliere have all opted out of the Classification now. We went to the Ch La Gaffeliere Tour when we were in St Emilion a few weeks ago and they talked about that. Interesting. I bought some bottles of 2015 Ch Faugeres which I know won’t be as good as Peby but wanted to try it because the price was reasonable. $38.99 a bottle.

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