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Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 9:28:40 AM

KPB

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Here's a puzzle that I've been thinking about.

While in Israel as part of my sabbatical, I had this project of trying tons of the boutique wines, and as mentioned on a different thread, realized that in that climate and soil, Carignan and Durif (Petit Sirah) and Chenin Blanc really do much better than pure classical varietals like Cabernet Sauvignon and Chardonnay. The reason, in Israel, is that when you have fairly dry vineyards that sometimes get roasted by mid-day heat, it is easy to end up with grapes that get overripe and even scorched by the sun, and yet have underripe green material (pips and stems). So your cabernet or merlot may end up with aromas and flavors that seem like green peppers, or in some cases even seem like chemicals you might find in a hospital or a pesticide.

So you ask yourself: why in the world is everyone so focused on producing cabernet, if they actually do so amazingly well with Carignan and Durif? But the answer is in the price: that cabernet will sell for $50 or even $100, but the Carignan sells for $15 or $20 even if the wines is just ridiculously delicious. Same with Chenin Blanc: this is the basis of the Loire whites, like Vouvray, and in fact I love the dry versions (Huet, in a good year -- wow...). Yet no matter how good these get, they rarely come near the pricing of a well made Chardonnay.

Right now I'm in California, in Sonoma, and just for fun picked up a bottle of the Cline 2014 "Very ancient vines" Carignane (he prefers a spelling with an "e" at the end). Amazingly good. $12.75.

Then someone posted that question about wine for crab-cakes. The whites I suggested include some of the world's very best wines (Chave's Hermitage), but I would bet anything that those crab cakes will ultimately be served with a Chardonnay. And sure, nothing is wrong with the pairing. Spring $150 and you can get an amazing Chardonnay from Kistler, or go for $300 and you can get a Montrachet... delicious wines. Yet from a pure QPR point of view, there are all these little-known yet amazingly delicious white wine varietals out there. The Chave Hermitage is actually a way better wine for its $250 price than the $600 Montrachet from Sauzet, at least in recent vintages: Montrachet is suffering from the heat and other weather issues, and the wines aren't what they once were. Or at the cheap end of the spectrum, the Greco di Tufo whites are remarkable and cost $20. I've met people who would think that you were making a joke, if you served them such a wine at a fancy dinner.

And just from these few experiences, I suddenly started thinking about how even among those of us who post on boards like this, we tend to be very "classical" in our discussion of wines. We rave over the best Bordeaux we've ever opened, or the best white Burgundy, or the top Cabernets and Chardonnay from California. Right now over on the Vinous.com site, there is a vertical tasting of Colgin IX Syrah reds, which I find really unexciting: they cost $150 or $200 and are sort of syrupy and high in alcohol. But Steve Tanzer loves them, apparently, and people are jumping in on the discussion board to share their best experiences of those reds in this climate: a climate made for hot-country wines like Carignan and Durif, in my view, where even Cabernet is often flabby and unbalanced.

So why do we all play along with this game? Why aren't we the folks who are hunting down the obscure varietals that are insane overperformers and quality/performance winners? I myself am going to begin to make a real point of this: I'm going to start asking winemakers what wines do best in their region, independent of price and market forces, and to try those varietals, even if it leads me to some really weird, little known Italian white wine that only thrives on the southern-facing slopes of Mt. Vesuvius, or whatever (there is such a wine: Lacryma Christi, and the best examples are absolutely delicious). And as for Chardonnay: honestly, with global warming, we should mostly write the whole varietal off, these days. Unless you like butter with your wine, and plan to drink it on the day you receive the bottle, Chardonnay wines often disappoint these days (premox....) I'm in the land of ripe Cabs, but I plan to drink as many great Carignan and Petit Durif reds as I can find, and some great Zins too...

< Message edited by KPB -- 4/19/2017 11:34:31 AM >

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 9:45:14 AM

Vietty

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Lots of good points to ponder on here KPB.

Speaking from the view point of a relative wine newbie, I'm still trying to calibrate my wine palate and wrap my head around the main/noble varieties and classic regions to form a foundation. One of the difficulties is that I don't have very many opportunities to taste very often or many different wines, so I tend to stick to the main varieties when I'm purchasing/drinking wine right now. I know joining a group or attending offlines can help, and it's something I'm looking forward to in the near future.

However, I agree the odd bottle of less common wine (e.g. Trousseau or Greek assyrtiko) can be really fun and exciting and just as enjoyable (or even more enjoyable).

P.S. I'm really looking forward to my trip to Sonoma this weekend. One of wineries I'm "branching out" to is Unti who does Italian varietals. Looking forward to tasting something off the beaten path.

< Message edited by Vietty -- 4/19/2017 9:47:58 AM >

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 10:01:03 AM

Jenise

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Perhaps people try these obscure wines but don't discuss them here.

Petite Arvine? Gaglioppo? Ribolla Giolla--hey, how about an orange ribolla giolla. How about a super-refreshing $10 garganega/moscato blend--amazing QPR! Or Teroldego from a drop-dead gorgeous winemaker in the Dolomites who has made it her life's work to prove that serious, ageable Teroldego can exist? Or a chenin blanc/palomino/semillon gris field blend from a revived vineyard in South Africa planted in the early 1900's. I've had them all in the past two weeks. The gaglioppo (a red grape, and the primary red of Rome back in gladiators days) was a bust but heck, what a fun thing to taste. How about Torbato? There's one estate vineyard in the world that produces a 100% varietal wine from it--it's in Sardinia and I have some. It's terrific, well worth seeking out! And it would be amazing with crab cakes. As would a good little $15 Cheverny or a number of other off-the-beaten track wines a long way away from the Auberts and Liquid Farms several mentioned.

But I tend not to discuss such things here. I've not seen much evidence of interest, and I'm not being critical when I say that--it's just that posts on this board DO lean toward the higher end of mainstream.

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 10:10:25 AM

barolo300

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I imagine a lot of us have thought about this. My first thought is that at most stages of a wine lover's journey there is plenty to ponder amongst the well trodden path - there is so much of it that it only seems well trodden at a late stage.

Unpicking Burgundy is a thing of wonder, cherishing a favourite Bordeaux doesn't feel old hat, exploring terroir from around the world in the guise of well known grapes that we can understand is useful.

Then I thought about it from the wine maker's perspective. It is a no brainer to grow what sells. We can't blame anyone for needing to do that. Look at Hungary, for example. Soci-Political and economic factors meant that they felt the need to plant Cab S, Cab F, Merlot, Chardonnay, Pinot Gris and others so that exports would pick up after the soviet bloc ended. And frankly whilst they have a number of indigenous (or at least ancient) grapes there, often the international varieties add something rather than take away. This has happened all around the vine growing world for any number of reasons. Most of the well known varieties have floated to the top of the barrel (no pun intended) because they are the best possible varieties. That doesn't mean they are always planted wisely. Look at Chile - they seem to have discovered that!

If you find a wonderful obscure wine in a remote vineyard, great. We can all get behind that. But it is, I suspect, quite likely that they flourish in that particular location for a reason. There are many viticultural reasons to plant a certain variety in a certain location, notwithstanding the legal regulations in Old World (generally more than new world) locations.

I do think about QPR a lot. But you cannot replace a great Claret or a delicious Burg. They are what they are. If you want a Montrachet, a Chave Hermitage will not do - doesn't matter the QPR. Wine is about more than just taste - to me anyway. The story, history, science and the flavour come together and fit the mood I am in or the style I want to serve with the food in front of me.

We should welcome the adventure and variety of the new without needing to abandon the 'classic' wines...

Interesting write up on Carignan by Jancis Robinson:

As a vine, Carignan has a host of disadvantages. It ripens late so can be successfully grown only in relatively warm climates. It is also susceptible to both powdery mildew and downy mildew and needs extensive spraying in all but the driest climates. It is not suitable for mechanical harvesting because its stalks are particularly tough.

As a wine, Carignan can be pretty tough too. The wine produced is typically high in rough tannins and acidity and in southern France the softening vinification method of carbonic maceration routinely has to be used to ensure that wines made from Carignan can be drunk reasonably young. I find a rank bitterness in many Languedoc red blends too dependent on high-yielding Carignan.

So why is Carignan so widely planted in the south of France? In one word: yield. The Carignan vine is quite exceptionally productive, regularly churning out as much as 200 hl/ha, more than four times as much as decent Cabernet Sauvignon, for example.

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 10:13:01 AM

dsGris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jenise

Perhaps people try these obscure wines but don't discuss them here.

But I tend not to discuss such things here. I've not seen much evidence of interest, and I'm not being critical when I say that--it's just that posts on this board DO lean toward the higher end of mainstream.

I had a quite similar response and you said it more tactfully.

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 1:52:00 PM

Scott W

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I like this thread! especially because I recently found Teroldego made by Foradori to be excellent from the regular to the single vineyards. Very reasonably priced, I love finding these wines.

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 2:01:36 PM

mclancy10006

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I drank a Troussant from Copian the other day that made think about his topic. Nice drinking wine to be sure and quite hard to pin down what it was incomparion to more familiar grapes which is what kept it intriguing.

Mark

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 2:04:27 PM

Eddie

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I plead not guilty. I've posted many times about Assyrtiko, Palomino Fino, Aglianico, Sagrantino, and other great grapes/wines that don't have the reputation they should.

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 2:11:57 PM

Vietty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mclancy10006

I drank a Troussant from Copian the other day that made think about his topic. Nice drinking wine to be sure and quite hard to pin down what it was incomparion to more familiar grapes which is what kept it intriguing.

Mark

Nice! I'll be visiting Copain on Sunday. Didn't know they made a wine from that grape, hope we're able to taste it. For me the Arnot Roberts version is just in that right spot of fruit with savory/interesting notes. Great balance of sweet and acidity. Lower alcohol level so I can drink a whole bottle of it. I'm getting thirsty just thinking about it!

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 3:09:24 PM

Eddie

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WTSO has a 100% Zibibbo from Sicily up now. Here's your chance to grab a conversation piece.

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 4:07:57 PM

midpalate

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB
Why aren't we the folks who are hunting down the obscure varietals that are insane overperformers and quality/performance winners?

This is essentially what I do. But it's awful, and all the wines except Cab and Chard are awful, and no one else should buy the obscure wines that I buy.

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/19/2017 4:19:40 PM

KPB

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I am in touch with Ian D'Agata, the reviewer for Vinous, and he actually wrote a whole book on the varietals of Italy and who produces wines from each. Literally thousands of them. And while I actually love Nebbiolo, now I'm going out of my way to order these local wines when I find myself in regions that have them.

Of course not all obscure varietals are good. The Fingerlakes has these very old white grapes that some wineries still bottle...but they yield horrible wines with a mix of candied and skunky aromas that catch in your throat.

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/20/2017 1:16:06 AM

PinotPhile

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Recently tasted and purchased a red blend of grenache, syrah and carignan. So a GSC instead of a GSM. The C added a dimension I had not experienced, and was too creative for me to pass up. Will see when I get to the drinking window.

Cheers!

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/20/2017 7:56:55 AM

KPB

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I've had a few of those too, or with Marselan: GSM but no Mourvèdre. And I agree: they can be really good, and a little different in a refreshing way. In fact Bonneau, the famous CDP producer, has a field blend. Nobody is entirely sure what goes into the wine. Same with Sean Thackeray "up the road" from me during my visit here in a California... and these mystery wines are often fascinating.

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/20/2017 10:58:03 AM

Vietty

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http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/Matt-Kramer-Contrarian-Wine-Cellar

Right now I'm just focusing on fundamentals, but eventually I'd like to have a mix of classic wines and interesting off the beaten path wines. Thought this article applies to this discussion.

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/20/2017 11:32:21 AM

mgriffith

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If you want a resource to track down the obscure varietals then check this.

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/21/2017 12:55:28 AM

jmcmchi

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quote:

Most of the well known varieties have floated to the top of the barrel (no pun intended) because they are the best possible varieties.

Not sure I agree with this as stated...France put a lot of marketing effort into Bordeaux and Burgundy long before marketing became a science and the perception of Cab S, Merlot and PN/Chardonnay benefitted from the association. On the other hand, I look at the German experiments with alternatives for riesling, and their results seem to prove that in the Rhein and Mosel heartland, There Is No Alternative to riesling

The Jancis reference to carignan is spot-on - and not only for that varietal.. Clonal selection, looking at the technical literature, seems to give as much weight to yield considerations as to flavour/quality characteristics

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/21/2017 10:49:07 AM

KPB

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I think that in specific areas there are often varietals that greatly outperform others. I'm not advocating that the whole world shift to Carignan.

What troubles me is this huge worldwide push to rip out other vines and plant Cabernet and Chardonnay whenever and wherever possible!

< Message edited by KPB -- 4/21/2017 10:50:04 AM >

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/21/2017 4:56:41 PM

jmcmchi

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quote:

KPB

Status: offline I think that in specific areas there are often varietals that greatly outperform others. I'm not advocating that the whole world shift to Carignan.

What troubles me is this huge worldwide push to rip out other vines and plant Cabernet and Chardonnay whenever and wherever possible!

It is about profitability and the nasty little secret about chardonnay is that it is a very high yielder which can frequently obtain/exceed the price of low-yielding varieties

On carignan, I've had some delightful bottles from 60-70 year old vines in the languedoc that were missed in the mass uprooting of the 70's. Change the label to Cab and the market would have paid three times the price

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RE: Less famous varietals - 4/21/2017 5:43:12 PM

khmark7

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Agree with the sentiment here, although a well made wine from grapes grown in a proper location is always welcome. There is a lot of diversity in style and opinion on well made wine and proper locations and levels of ripeness and so on.... I prefer Cabernet lean and 12% alcohol and others prefer riper and 14.5% alcohol. Many growers and winemakers are producing wine for the 95% of the population who like Cadbury Eggs, instant pudding and Cinnabon....

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