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I avoid super Tuscans - 8/6/2010 9:40:00 AM   
ArntErik

 

Posts: 149
Joined: 12/27/2009
From: Ski, Norway
Status: offline 		Well, actually the opposite is true for me; I absolutely love them, but I frequently see similar statements.
I don't understand why anyone would avoid any wine that's potentially so good, even though they may be made from grapes and methods that are not 100 % Italian.

I am curious; what's your view on this? Do you avoid super Tuscans? If so, why?


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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/6/2010 10:04:04 AM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 1191
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester. VA
Status: offline 		ArntErik,

I do not avoid Super Tuscans per se, but so far (and my experience is a bit limited), I have not been that impressed, particularly given the high prices for which they are often sold. I have a few "better bottles" that will be coming of age soon, and so in a few years, my opinion should be better formed, and might be different from what I think now.

Nevertheless, I have a vague sense (prejudice is probably a better term) that wines made from grapes that were grown "where they should be grown" are better than wines made from grapes that were grown in some kind of strange place. I realize this belief may not have any basis in fact, but I must confess that I suspect it shapes my opinion.

Interesting post.

Cheers,

John


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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/6/2010 10:04:26 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 7118
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		Only through ignorance.

Maestro's posts frequently show up many great Italians - ST and non-ST.

L.

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/6/2010 10:43:04 AM   
mj

 

Posts: 1092
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From: Ocean City, MD
Status: offline 		One word:  Sassicaia!

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/6/2010 11:21:19 AM   
khmark7

 

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Status: offline 		I avoid Italian cars, wines & women.  I can't figure any of them out.

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/6/2010 11:34:53 AM   
mbannon

 

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From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnNezlek


Nevertheless, I have a vague sense (prejudice is probably a better term) that wines made from grapes that were grown "where they should be grown" are better than wines made from grapes that were grown in some kind of strange place. I realize this belief may not have any basis in fact, but I must confess that I suspect it shapes my opinion.



This doesn't make much sense to me (no offense meant).  Grape vines have been moved all over the world for thousands of years, who's to say which vines "should" be grown where?  By that logic, California shouldn't make any wine at all.  If a person plants a vine in a new area that's "wrong," but if a bird eats a grape and excretes the seeds in a new area, that's "right?"  I don't get it.

Now, if we're talking instead about a region's traditions, that's another matter entirely.  But that has nothing to do with the quality of the grapes.

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/6/2010 11:36:23 AM   
treetops

 

Posts: 2323
Joined: 3/11/2009
From: England, UK
Status: offline 		I love sangiovese wines but I find the "international" grape versions just a turn off. That includes Sassicaia I'm afraid. Before parker startyed to hand out 100 points here and there it was quite interesting but now if I want an expensive cabernet sauvignon wine I buy Bordeaux; who one has to admit still produces the greatest wines from this grape. As for the likes of Masseto.....

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/6/2010 11:48:46 AM   
musedir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

I avoid Italian cars, wines & women.  I can't figure any of them out.



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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/6/2010 5:14:19 PM   
BobMilton

 

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From: Newbury Park, CA
Status: offline 		No, no, no - California should only make wine from Mission grapes! 

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 12:17:13 AM   
pjaines

 

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From: London
Status: offline 		I generally find them more generic-international in their profile and they are usually too expensive.  No doubt there are some good ones out there but I would out of habit buy something else before a "super-tuscan" prefering more regionally specific grapes.

I've enjoyed the Ornellia wines very much but of course these are very expensive, top of the range wines. 

These wines to me seem to have a taste profile in mind before a vine has been planted rather than dealing with what the terroir throws at them.

Again, probably my ignorance rather than any specific amount of tasting.  I'm always open to good wine.

< Message edited by pjaines -- 8/7/2010 1:46:39 AM >

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 2:04:45 AM   
RobRah

 

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Status: offline 		What abuot the 100% Sangiovese supertuscans? (eg. Cepparello)

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 2:33:34 AM   
Maestro

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		The more I buy from Tuscany the more I came to think that the distinction between a "super-tucsan" and a traditional DOCG Tuscan is a bit artificial. They are just Tuscan wines.

There are "super-Tuscans" made with 100% Sangiovese and there are Chianti Classico wines with a lot of Merlot in it (not to mention all the controversy around BdM with Merlot in it).

At the end of the day, you either like the wines from the region or you don't . They are pricey, but some are very good.


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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 3:25:53 AM   
kwaky

 

Posts: 251
Joined: 12/8/2008
From: UK
Status: offline 		During a quick break in Italy, we spent some time in Tuscany.

Some of the super tuscans were extremely good. Cepparello (from Isole) was of particular note. The wine maker is almost fanatical about the entire process from grape to bottle. On the flipside, I wasn't impressed by the Fontodi outfit; nice wine but much more commerical in fabrication.



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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 4:08:02 AM   
Ibetian

 

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From: Sarasota, FL and the Berkshires
Status: offline 		I enjoy super Tuscans and have a small supply in the cellar. Generally, however, I agree that cab/merlot blends from Bordeaux tend to be better for the price.

The greatest achievement of "super" Tuscans might be the name itself, created by Antinori as an alternative to calling them simply "table wines" under Italian law. The unofficial name stuck, and in addition to the quality of the wines, have helped to make these a hit internationally.

Over the past few decades, the new world has run circles around the old world in wine marketing; this is just about the only counter example I can think of.

As a wine drinker, all I care about is what's in the bottle. But marketing plays a big role in what wines get made and how widely they are distributed, how successful they are financially, and how much money is available to enhance quality. The big boys in Bordeaux and elsewhere can largely coast on names (brands in you will) built up over a century or more. But the little guys in France, Italy and elsewhere struggle under archaic rules. There is a new effort to change this in Bordeaux, which sounds a bit hokey to me, but I hope it succeeds for the sake of smaller, high quality producers and ultimately wine drinkers.

Wine makers worldwide should consider channeling the Antinori family for the creativity displayed in calling Tignello a "super Tuscan" wine.

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 4:44:15 AM   
Khamen

 

Posts: 5543
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From: near Stonehenge, UK
Status: offline 		STs are among my absolute faves anywhere in the world, but it's important to recognise that saying "I do/don't like them" is a bit like saying "I do/don't like Californian wines or Australian wines".

When the phrase "Super Tuscan" gets thrown around then people immediately think of the 2 (unofficial) "First Growths" of Ornellaia and Sassicaia, plus the other massively expensive top wines like Redigaffi, Tignanello, Solaia and Messorio. Now I happen to love these but they are not the be-all and end-all of Tuscan IGT/Super-Tuscan wines.

In the $30-50 range there are many outstanding wines coming out of Tuscany that do the job - Il Blu from Brancaia, Flacciannello from Fontodi (100% sangiovese), Cepparello, etc. Guidalberto @ $30? Bolgheri Rosso from Macchiole for $18?? Sammarco?

In California you can spend $300 on a bottle of cult wine, and it's the same in Tuscany. I suppose my point is it's no different from any other "premium" wine region anywhere in the world.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to look beyond the Massetos and the like and dig into some basic Bolgheri Rossos and IGTs from a good vintage and see where it takes you. There are some spectacular wines out there as well as some over-priced monstrosities. It's the same the world over.

A few recommendations from me in the $20-50 range with approx price (over here anyway). These aren't exactly bargain basement but all good stuff and imo represent QPR:

Brancaia Il Blu 2005 : $30
Le Macchiole Bolgheri Rosso 2006 : $18
Tua Rita Giusto di Notri 2006 : $50
Le Serre Nuove (Ornellaia) 2007: $35
Banfi Summus 2004 : $30
Sette Ponti Oreno 2006 : $50
Argiano Solengo 2005 : $35
Pogio al Sole Seraselva 2006 : $35
Volpaia Balifico 2006 : $35

Of course you could save even more cash on the Sangioveses by trawling through the excellent 2006 and 2007 Chintis which are widely available!

K






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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 7:29:11 AM   
RobRah

 

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From: London, UK
Status: offline 		Khamen, your post is worthy of cutting and pasting to my PC for keeping.... ! Thanks :)

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 8:44:22 AM   
wadcorp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RobRah

Khamen, your post is worthy of cutting and pasting to my PC for keeping.... ! Thanks :)


+1

.

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 9:23:19 AM   
ArntErik

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Khamen

STs are among my absolute faves anywhere in the world, but it's important to recognise that saying "I do/don't like them" is a bit like saying "I do/don't like Californian wines or Australian wines".


Are you suggesting then, that it all boils down to a wine snob issue?


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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 9:43:36 AM   
Khamen

 

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Status: offline 		No, I'm saying that "Super Tuscan" does not mean it has to cost the same as a small car to get a good wine.

Super Tuscan is a marketing term, the reality of the product is that it can be any wine made with care outside the often ridiculously strict DOC/DOCG regs of the region. As with any region producing fine wine there are good producers and there are bad. Good does not mean a minimum outlay of $150 however...

K

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 11:34:00 AM   
pault

 

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As with anything and depending on your taste and preference you can find decent stuff.

Here are a couple with good reviews.

2007 Marchesi de' Frescobaldi Tenuta di Castiglioni Toscana IGT (Italy, Tuscany, Toscana IGT) 2012-2018 CT91
2003 Moris Farms Avvoltore Maremma Toscana IGT (Italy, Tuscany, Maremma, Maremma Toscana IGT) CT91.9

Mid $20 btl.

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 12:13:52 PM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 10664
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: offline 		I am open to trying good wines - and with some direction by some people like Khamen and Maestro may get over my predujice.  I guess my opinion is based on the image/name of Super Tuscan rather than the actual taste.  Thanks for the advice Khamen - I'll happily slurp some out of your cellar next time we meet up to recalibrate my opinion.

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/7/2010 5:10:24 PM   
dsGris

 

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Status: offline 		I have bought and reordered from K&L and have been pleased with this one under $20.
2005 Marchesi Mazzei Serrata di Belguardo Maremma Toscana IGT


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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/8/2010 1:04:50 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 913
Joined: 10/4/2007
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Some stuff I like includes,

> The whole Tenuta dell'Ornellaia range
> The La Massa Giorgio Primo
> The Villa di Capezzana Ghiaie della Furba
> The Castelgiocondo Lamaione (this one is 100% Merlot)
> The Brancaia Il Blu
> The Fattoria Le Pupille Saffredi
> The Avignonesi Desiderio (another Merlot)
> The Tua Rita Giusto di Notri
> The Ca' Marcanda Magari
> The Frescobaldi Tenuta di Castiglioni

...and I think the list would go on and on, really...

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/8/2010 3:40:44 AM   
PMDias

 

Posts: 292
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From: Philadelphia, Pa
Status: offline 		I must resist this freakish outpouring of reasonableness: I find myself with pjaines, perfectly aware that my prejudice is random and irrational, but tending to stay away from STs just because they're the "wrong" grapes.

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/8/2010 5:54:50 AM   
J2K

 

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I love the ST's and have had some excellent ones. Ornellaia is one of the best wines I've ever had. Although researching my tasting notes they have been the more expensive bottles, I'll use the list to check out some of the better QPR's

PMDias,
I recall you enjoying the rich flavors of the Ornellaia at the Philly CT Gathering

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/8/2010 5:55:25 AM   
pbm

 

Posts: 2983
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Status: offline 		It's not irrational to prefer grapes traditionally associated with a given region. Presumably the grape growers and wine makers there know how to get the most out of such grapes. The more wine I drink (and wine books I read) the more a believer I am in terrior and the value of wine makers really, truly, deeply understanding their soil, vines, and traditional production methods.

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/8/2010 9:56:02 AM   
loli

 

Posts: 131
Joined: 2/1/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Adding nothing new here but just reiterating what many others have already said - I have nothing against the concept of the super Tuscan wines, it's just the mainly the price which prohibits buying. To me super Tuscan is a well-marketed concept and some producers having achieved a "cult wine" status for their product. Very rarely do I buy a wines costing more than 30-40€ and within that price range I've found only one good (meaning good value) super Tuscan available on the shelves of Alko - our national alcohol monopoly. It is the Cabreo il Borgo which at around 26€ used to be a good buy for the very nice 2000 vintage, but now the most recent vintage (2006) is priced at 34€ so haven't touched it - it's not that good...



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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/8/2010 12:07:10 PM   
ArntErik

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pbm

It's not irrational to prefer grapes traditionally associated with a given region. Presumably the grape growers and wine makers there know how to get the most out of such grapes. The more wine I drink (and wine books I read) the more a believer I am in terrior and the value of wine makers really, truly, deeply understanding their soil, vines, and traditional production methods.
I'm with you all the way.
But my palate begs to differ.


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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/8/2010 2:48:54 PM   
Maestro

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		Forgive my semi-sarcastic posting, but when one says that Tuscany is too expensive, may I ask which competing region one has in mind as a matter of comparison?

Because the great fine wines of Bordeaux and Burgundy are orders of magnitude more expensive than the wines of Tuscany.

It seems to me that the underlying assumption is that Tuscany ought to compete with budget areas. (Even in that sense, I think Tuscany does a good job too.)

But when we talk about the likes of Ornellaia, I still think they deliver good value when compared with a Bordeaux 1st Growth or a Première Grand Cru from Burgundy. And that is the competition they target.

Now, if one's underlying assumption is that Super Tuscans ought to compete with Rioja or Alentejo, then I understand that one will find it expensive. But I tend to think that Tuscany's quality levels often reach much higher than your regular Rioja or Alentejo wines.

OK, maybe I was over-zealous and patriotic herein. You'll forgive me, hopefully...

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RE: I avoid super Tuscans - 8/8/2010 3:25:46 PM   
GalvezGuy

 

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From: Galveston, TX
Status: offline 		Maestro, foregiven. I have had a lot of enjoyable Tuscan and Super Tuscan wines in the $17-$30 range and I am finding more all of the time.

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