How (NOT) to collect Wines

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How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/17/2009 12:52:08 PM

smahk

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Excellent post on MS BB from Alex Goldstein on life lessons learned in collecting wine. The etnire post is HERE - but I have excerpted a bit.

My favorite is the QPR - have been headed there - but will head this advice in the future. Note to self: Burgundy tasting.

The Lessons I’ve Learned The Hard Way

1. QPR is BS - You really can go broke saving money. I bought more $15 bottles than I could ever drink, because each one was a “deal.” Well it may be true that some critic honestly believed that a given $15 bottle was comparable to a lot of other $50 bottles, but the only palate that matters is mine. And more often than not, I didn’t give a damn about those wines, they gave me zero joy. Zero joy means it’s worth zero dollars. So how is that a bargain?

2. Mailing Lists are for Suckers - I ended up owning hundreds of bottles I couldn’t care less about, each purchase was rationalized because I was afraid to lose my allocation. This is worse even than the QPR nightmare, because many of them cost a pretty penny. The weak vintages and hostage wines ended up far outweighing any savings or rarity considerations. It’s a bad deal, with only a very few exceptions.

3. Quality over Quantity - I wish I had bought 2 cases of great wine a year from the beginning rather than 20 cases a year of forgettable wine. A lot of people can’t get past the mental block of opening a bottle worth $X, but we fool ourselves -- if you impute the cost of bottles that you don’t care about, can’t sell, or that just plain suck, your “bargain bottles” cost a lot more than you think. Even worse, I started to feel obliged to drink wine more often than I otherwise would, because I had so many bottles.

4. The Market is Not Irrational - There’s a reason that La Tache costs what it costs, and it isn’t snob appeal. Sometimes you can find a great wine at a bargain price, and when you do then back up the truck. However, for almost all of the truly greatest wines in the world, the secret is out. If you don’t pay up, you’re probably not getting a wine of comparable quality.

5. The Best Wine in the World is from Burgundy - I know a lot of people will disagree with this, and I wish even more people would disagree with this so the wines would be cheaper. The truth is, though, that I’ve never had a wine from any other region of the world that reached the celestial heights of a great Burgundy. Most people I know who spend massive money on wine agree with this sentiment. A few also like aged Bordeaux, but for me even decades old First Growths aren’t as complete and complex as great Burgundy. I wish I had been introduced to Burgundy earlier in my life, and I would encourage anyone who is thinking about collecting wine, to attend several tastings of high end Burgundy before they devote a lot of time and money to their collection. And just to clarify, I do drink other wines besides Burgundy, but I do not drink them with the expectation of the same greatness. I drink them to support a pairing, for sentiment, or just to mix things up. But 9 times out of 10, I reach for Burgundy.

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/17/2009 1:28:05 PM

Serge Birbrair

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good ideas, indeed!

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/17/2009 1:44:12 PM

kelpcowboy

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On the money. And yes, Clos de la Roche is about the best juice on the planet.

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/17/2009 3:41:19 PM

Blue Shorts

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I tend to look at QPR differently. When I rate a wine as a good/great QPR, it's a wine that I enjoy drinking. I think that it's stupid for anyone to buy tons of wine simply based on a professional review that states great QPR.

Mailing Lists - I usually join mailing lists (clubs) to get discounts on future purchases. It's a good deal if done correctly.

I generally agree with the quality over quantity, but one can get quality and quantity if done correctly.

I completely disagree with the market rationality statement. The market is not driven solely by quality. Name-brand recognition, reviews by certain Parkers (and others), among other things. Generally speaking, high quality costs more, but there are many very expensive wines that command high prices due to cult status.

The best wine in the world is from Burgundy. I have no idea about the truth of that statement. I have heard it said that both the best and the worst wines are from Burgundy. I'm also sure that there are many Bordeaux drinkers that prefer Bordeaux to Burgundy. Remember, we're talking about food here. You like what you like. The only truth is that they are different wines. The quality cannot be compared to each other. It's like comparing grape flavor to cherry flavor... which is better?

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/17/2009 4:25:56 PM

Bryan Collins

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Gladly mailing lists basically don't exist in Europe. Screw cheap wine though. Generally, it's cheap for a reason (certain bizarrely overlooked regions excepted - Germany, Sherry...)

Quality over quantity? Every day, yes! Trouble is, I try to temper my buying addiction by trading up the quality scale, but my quantity doesn't reduce. Hmmmm.

He's right about Burgundy too!

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/17/2009 5:28:49 PM

treetops

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bryan Collins

He's right about Burgundy too!

I agree but I'm afraid he's not so correct about La Tache et al. It was true once that it was expensive because a) it was extremely good and b) there wasn't much of it. Nowadays both a) and b) still hold true but I'm afraid that top class wine HAS become a must have item of the rich, like having the Picasso, LV luggage, race horse etc., and this demand has driven the prices up to what they are now. Undoubtably many top wines are bought just for the label not for the contents; Carruades is a case in point. And the fraudsters are probably having a field day.

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/17/2009 6:32:31 PM

khmark7

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Yes, need to buy and drink more Burgundy....and Champange. Still, I must admit that I love Bordeaux.

QPR is evil? Forgetable wine? I think there is a smaller gap between the have's and have not's in todays wine world. The great thing about wine lately is that everyone is producing better wines.

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/17/2009 10:57:52 PM

Colonel Lawrence

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1. More than a touch of truth here
2. Mailing lists are just lists (although they seem to be something more Stateside), surely you don't have to buy?
3. Agree, agree, agree
4. It's not irrational - you pay for scarcity: it doesn't mean the most expensive wines are the best though!
5. Disagree - the best wine in the world comes from all over the place.
Show me the double blind tastings where Burgundy always wins (doesn't exist, just as it doesn't for Bordeaux).

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/18/2009 4:31:07 AM

tacman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

2. Mailing lists are just lists (although they seem to be something more Stateside), surely you don't have to buy?

In the old days (prior to 1 year ago), the lists were very competitive and most expressly stated that if you did NOT buy for 12-18 months then you would be dropped for people on the waiting list ... this has changed somewhat over the past year. As several people have noted in posts, I think there is some sharing of lists between wineries, as I have been getting offers from wineries that I have never sought out (as well as from lists that I dropped several years ago).

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/18/2009 4:51:02 AM

stephori

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bryan Collins
Gladly mailing lists basically don't exist in Europe.

That's why so many people are on the waiting list for top burgundy producers...

Stéphane

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/18/2009 5:19:46 AM

nwinther

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Thankfully I don't care much for Pinot Noir.

My favourites will most likely remain Rhone and Bordeaux (or imitations thereof) sharing the first place.

BTW - you don't save money on buying stuff. You save money by NOT buying stuff - no matter the price. So if you want to save money on wine, stop buying wine.

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/18/2009 6:31:51 AM

treetops

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stephori

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bryan Collins
Gladly mailing lists basically don't exist in Europe.

That's why so many people are on the waiting list for top burgundy producers...

Stéphane

Not really. If you've got enough cash I could source you just about anything you wanted.....and regrettably that's all it takes nowadays.

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/18/2009 6:48:28 AM

stephori

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treetops
Not really. If you've got enough cash I could source you just about anything you wanted.....and regrettably that's all it takes nowadays.

For example Armand Rousseau, it's cheaper to buy every year Clos de Beze for 100€ at the domain than to buy it only in exceptionnal years for 900€ on the gray market.

The same for DRC...

And the domains that have to do with allocation always resell well on the gray market even in the bad years so that beeing on the mailing of these producers is like winning lottery...

Stéphane

(in reply to treetops)

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/18/2009 7:51:06 AM

khmark7

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Colonel mailing lists are also, in many cases, the only was to purchase certain high quality/low volume producers wine without paying an arm and leg on auction. I am on several mailing lists, and not all are like this, but for the most part it's a good idea because you get first availability. I'm also very careful to avoid some of the lists that they talk about in the article.

(in reply to stephori)

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/20/2009 10:39:25 AM

LionGaucho

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I think these statements are largely oversimplified.

1. QPR is BS

Buying high scoring, low-priced wine is a flawed strategy. But if you can find a lesser known region or varietal you like, there's your QPR. It's true you won't often find a $15 wine that rivals a luxury cuvee, but you can certainly find wines that rise above mass-produced or flawed plonk. Often times these are imperfect or rustic wines that still show regional and varietal character. Trust your palate on these, not numbers as critics will choose the knock-off, spoofulated, over-ripe wine over a less manipulated wine most of the time.

2. Mailing Lists are for Suckers

Mostly true. But keep in mind a lot of collectors are chasing a few exclusive mailing lists. This pushes prices up higher than they would be if the quantity of wine produced with a certain label was not part of the equation. If I had a dollar for every time someone mention Sea Smoke as THE Santa Rita Hills Pinot Noir, I could buy a bottle of Sea Smoke. In reality there's a lot of top notch wine coming out of that area. It's just that the average collector only knows a few names. So the better idea here is to find a winery that's not so famous and doesn't commit you to buying far more than you desire with allocations. I'm in one wine club that has no waiting list and only sends 8 bottles per year. They make only a few thousand cases per year and consistently garner 90+ ratings. If I really like something, then I can buy more. No BS, no marketing hype, just good wine.

3. Quality over Quantity

Absolutely. I'd say the key is finding the right balance in your budget between quantity and price. If you have $100 to spend, one top Bordeaux is not going to stretch your dollar as far as 3 or 4 lesser bottles. But if you have thousands to spend, I would agree lower end wine is just a waste of space.

4. The Market is Not Irrational

The market is rational, but not entirely for the reasons you point out. Limited supply combined with high demand for famous labels drives price up much faster than quality. I'd hazard to say few wineries spend more than $20 or $30 per bottle to produce their best wines. But because wine is a Veblen good, higher prices seem to stoke further interest in a given label. While there's a certain correlation between price and quality, above a certain price level the correlation weakens. The improvement in quality per $ is less, and very limited supply coupled with high demand determines the price point. Simply put, I'd say Napa Cult Cabs or First Growth Bordeaux are too expensive given the quality they may offer, but logically priced given demand from the UAE, Russia, all of Europe, the US, Hong Kong, Japan and so on.

5. The Best Wine in the World is from Burgundy

Haven't had enough Burgundy yet, and the pricing structure is a major barrier. If it takes several hundred $$$ to get into the mind blowingly good range (and the $20, $30, $40 and $50 bottles are not consistent), that is a barrier indeed.

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/21/2009 2:26:57 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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At the Judgement of London (aka CT London) I'd say the Bordeaux edged the Burgundy's.
Anyone else agree?
L.

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/21/2009 4:15:57 AM

Bryan Collins

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Well - the Bordeaux wines present were arguably among the very best available. Line up a mature first growth against a mature grand cru from a top grower and we'd have a proper contest

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/21/2009 5:23:56 AM

pjaines

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The white burgs were fantastic. The Batard Montrachet truly stunning.

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/21/2009 5:56:04 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

The white burgs were fantastic. The Batard Montrachet truly stunning.

The illegitimate Montrachet was truly a highlight for me.
And look how my French has improved, from a single lesson!
L.

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/21/2009 4:44:36 PM

treetops

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

The Batard Montrachet truly stunning.

Erm...Criots-Batard-Montrachet

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/21/2009 4:45:54 PM

treetops

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

At the Judgement of London (aka CT London) I'd say the Bordeaux edged the Burgundy's.
Anyone else agree?
L.

Well, there were certainly more of them!

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RE: How (NOT) to collect Wines - 6/22/2009 7:04:46 AM

ob2s

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Rational points, but mixing proposed empirical truths with one that is about as subjective as you can be, is a bit discrediting.

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