Fake '81 Latour?

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Fake '81 Latour? - 6/12/2023 7:36:48 AM

donogh

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I ordered two bottles '81 Latour from a reputable French website.

However, I am concerned that at least one is fake--please see photo here: https://imgur.com/E6iINAL

They come from different collectors; hence the condition differences. However, the capsules are completely different--the right-hand one has multiple "castle" logos printed on it; the other one doesn't.

Otherwise, they seem to check out okay and the seller is adamant they are real.

Any thoughts please?

Post #: 1

RE: Fake '81 Latour? - 6/12/2023 9:52:16 AM

Echinosum

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A few photos on CT of Latour 81 and adjacent vintages show a bottle together with the capsule in good light. Unfortunately, we can't see if there are additional castle logos around the back.

Colour rendition in photographs and variation with lighting conditions can mislead. But to me, the CT photos all look like the left hand bottle in terms of colour and texture. The red on the left has a saturation absent in the one on the right. And, maybe I'm seeing something the photo isn't really good enough for me to see, but the right hand capsule possibly looks like a cheaper capsule, possibly a thermal shrink.

So I would be concerned why the capsule on the right looks different.

One form of faking is to refill a bottle after it has been drunk. In such a fake, the label and bottle are original, you just have to replace the wine, the (hidden) cork and reproduce the capsule. You wouldn't normally bother faking Latour 81 with several more valuable nearby vintages available. If you didn't want the scrutiny the 82 might get, the 83 or 85 would be a good choice. But if you are doing the bottle refill trick, then you have to use what used bottles are available and in sufficiently good condition.

Maybe there is an innocent explanation. Maybe the bottle has been professionally recorked, as some arrange after 25-30 years. Though that would generally be disclosed by the seller and come with documentation. Maybe it originates from a second, later release of the wine by the chateau. In such a situation, typically the bottles will not have been labelled, etc, for sale until they are released, and by then maybe the capsule has changed. But maybe there are other genuine reasons why honest bottles can have an odd capsule. Let me tell you a story, though I don't know exactly what to conclude from it.

I had a strange experience of a case of wine with odd capsules, which makes me wonder if sometimes the chateau will put a different capsule on due to exigence of circumstance. I bought a case of wine en primeur from a reputable merchant. On being shipped, it was professionally stored in original sealed carton until I took delivery around 15 years later. So provenance was exceedingly good. But the capsules were not the usual capsules for that producer, which I know very well. Stranger still, each was double capsuled. The outer capsule was shorter, so you could see the inner capsule sticking out. So the second capsule wasn't an attempt to hide anything. Nevertheless, I was exceedingly suspicious of these bottles with their odd capsules. But there was nothing else obviously wrong with the bottles, including the contents.

So, I surmise maybe the capsuling machine broke down when it came to label them, etc. Or they ran out of capsule stock. And so they capsuled them with whatever stock or machine they could lay their hands on in a hurry to deliver the bottles on time. And they capsuled them twice because they weren't very happy with the first attempt with the non-standard capsules. Maybe they put the outer thermal shrink plastic capsule over the top to press the first capsule on better.

(in reply to donogh)

Post #: 2

RE: Fake '81 Latour? - 6/12/2023 10:45:49 AM

donogh

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Hi Echinosum,

Thanks so much for the comprehensive and thoughtful reply.

You're absolutely right about the saturation of the capsule in bottle 2. To be honest I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if it's a thermal shrink.

I did ask the vendor about the possibility it was refilled/recorked, and she said that normally that it would be marked on the bottle or the label, and she has no evidence to suggest that it was done.

That's a really interesting story about the en primeur wine. I have never heard of that happening.

If the wine is legitimate, I believe your explanation is the only plausible one: that bottle 2 was another run and they had to use a different supply of capsules. I agree also that the '81 vintage does not seem like the most profitable wine to fake. (It's my birth year so it's more for sentimental value.)

If you wouldn't mind terribly taking a look at more photos, please, I uploaded quite a few here:

Bottle 1 gallery: https://imgur.com/a/o96A0Bd

Bottle 2 gallery: https://imgur.com/a/UYx8wXf

Thank you!

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 3

RE: Fake '81 Latour? - 6/12/2023 4:22:53 PM

dad300

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Have you reached out to Latour? they would be able to definitively tell you if the capsule difference is an issue. on a side note... Maybe you have an original Rudy?

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RE: Fake '81 Latour? - 6/12/2023 11:29:57 PM

nwinther

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quote:

I agree also that the '81 vintage does not seem like the most profitable wine to fake. (It's my birth year so it's more for sentimental value.)

That could be the very reason why it's a good wine to fake. No one expects it, as it's not the Mona Lisa, so no one pays close attention. The only reason you do, is because you see it next to another bottle. If you just bought the one, you would have thought nothing of it.

I've never experienced this on the 1er crus (then again, I've never had a lot of that anyway), but I've seen different capsules on lower classed GCC (the top sometimes being stamped like yours and other bottles having a green and white "disc" on top instead of the stamp), and on other wines even totally different labels on the same wine plenty of times.

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RE: Fake '81 Latour? - 6/13/2023 12:42:56 AM

donogh

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quote:

Have you reached out to Latour? they would be able to definitively tell you if the capsule difference is an issue. on a side note... Maybe you have an original Rudy?

Yes, I contacted them last Friday with an enticing subject line(!). Unfortunately, I have yet to hear back. I will send them the additional photos in the hope that it might help.

Hehe, not sure I want an original Rudy! Thankfully, I still have about a week and a half to return them for a refund. So the quest continues !

quote:

That could be the very reason why it's a good wine to fake. No one expects it, as it's not the Mona Lisa, so no one pays close attention. The only reason you do, is because you see it next to another bottle. If you just bought the one, you would have thought nothing of it.

Very good point. Then the question is: is bottle 1 an original and I should only return bottle 2?

quote:

I've never experienced this on the 1er crus (then again, I've never had a lot of that anyway), but I've seen different capsules on lower classed GCC (the top sometimes being stamped like yours and other bottles having a green and white "disc" on top instead of the stamp), and on other wines even totally different labels on the same wine plenty of times.

I guess sometimes we see a French customs stamp on the top, rather than the producer’s stamp, and I have seen that in lots of different colours too. Otherwise, regrettably I don’t have much experience (yet?) with collecting older vintages, and it’s the first “Latour” I have purchased.

(in reply to dad300)

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RE: Fake '81 Latour? - 6/13/2023 2:26:54 AM

nwinther

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quote:

ORIGINAL: donogh
I guess sometimes we see a French customs stamp on the top, rather than the producer’s stamp, and I have seen that in lots of different colours too. Otherwise, regrettably I don’t have much experience (yet?) with collecting older vintages, and it’s the first “Latour” I have purchased.

That's another thing I haven't considered. High-grade faking wasn't an issue until recently (late 90's or so?), and I don't think the Chateaux in 1983 were too concerned either. Latour bottled between 100,000-200,000 bottles of the 1981 vintage (my guess). Perhaps there was more than one bottling/capping line working at a time? Loaded with slightly different caps?

This is all very intriguing.

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RE: Fake '81 Latour? - 6/13/2023 2:55:31 AM

donogh

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quote:

That's another thing I haven't considered. High-grade faking wasn't an issue until recently (late 90's or so?), and I don't think the Chateaux in 1983 were too concerned either. Latour bottled between 100,000-200,000 bottles of the 1981 vintage (my guess). Perhaps there was more than one bottling/capping line working at a time? Loaded with slightly different caps?

This is all very intriguing.

Yes, it’s quite the puzzle! I heard back from Latour just now:

quote:

As far as the condition of the bottles is concerned, if those were properly stored throughout the years, it is not surprising that you would find them in a good condition just like these two you purchased from <seller name redacted>.

Regarding the difference between the 2 bottles, labels and caps may vary depending on the year the vintage was released from the cellar.

The level in the bottle may as well slightly vary depending on the storage condition of a bottle. Evaporation is a known phenomenon.

Unfortunately, beyond the above considerations, and as you wisely stated, we are not in a position to authenticate old vintages that do not wear prooftags.

May we advise that you request more information regarding the origin of the two bottles directly to your reseller?

The reseller can only say they came from two different private cellars and provided rough locations, which doesn’t help much.

I have since heard from a friend who is a local wine seller in Ireland. He has a connection who used to run a 3-star Michelin restaurant and has an extensive collection. He saw all the photos and is of the opinion that they look genuine. He also confirmed that Latour did release capsules with three castles rather than one.

I think this is about as far as I can take it. Given that it wasn’t an insane amount of money (around €1,100), I’m going to hang on to them. My birthday is in a couple of months so I’ll be inspecting one of the corks then and doing a taste test. Will provide another update then.

Thanks again all for your replies and interest. It’s a bit of fun if nothing else!

< Message edited by donogh -- 6/13/2023 2:58:11 AM >

(in reply to nwinther)

Post #: 8

RE: Fake '81 Latour? - 6/13/2023 6:34:32 AM

Echinosum

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From: Buckinghamshire, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: donogh
If the wine is legitimate, I believe your explanation is the only plausible one: that bottle 2 was another run and they had to use a different supply of capsules. I agree also that the '81 vintage does not seem like the most profitable wine to fake. (It's my birth year so it's more for sentimental value.)

If you wouldn't mind terribly taking a look at more photos, please, I uploaded quite a few here:

Bottle 1 gallery: https://imgur.com/a/o96A0Bd

Bottle 2 gallery: https://imgur.com/a/UYx8wXf

Thank you!

Now I see these better photos, I see I was wrong to suggest that the second capsule was a cheaper kind. It isn't obviously so, but we can see the colour difference.

I've had a look at images of Latour capsules from around that time I can find online, and a I found a minority that are of that darker, less saturated red. And you have discovered that sometimes they did put 3 castles on the capsule.

We see from the base of the bottle, that there is a small difference in the mould serial identifier. So the bottles come from different batches, but otherwise are essentially the same bottle from the same manufacturer.

So it does all seem consistent with the idea that they come from different bottling batches. And you seem rather more comfortable about the possibility of that.

A final bit of reassurance would be to cut the lower part of the capsules to see the corks. If the corks are wrong, the seller can hardly complain if you send it/them back like that. Or maybe you can ask the seller's permission to do this to be sure. I couldn't find an images of cork for very close vintages, but I found this one for 1986 here, which I suspect is probably what yours should look like. Some time earlier - I found examples up to the late 60s - the logo branded on the cork was much smaller, higher up, and there was a lot of text in capitals below it, including the vintage.

Here's an interesting article on inspecting old bottles, from the point of view both of whether they are in acceptable condition, and also whether they might be fakes. It includes Latour 1945 as an example. It is interesting that back then they put the vintage on the capsule, and the capsule was short enough you could see a lot of the cork without cutting the capsule. He also says, always deface the label when you drink a valuable bottle, so someone else can't pick it up and use it to fake a new one. Particularly relevant if you are drinking in restaurant, I suppose.

It isn't helpful when even leading producers are inconsistent in how they bottle their wines. A merchant I regularly patronise was selling a few vintage Madeiras, from one of the better producers, and I found images of the same wine on the producer's website with completely different bottles. The website had bottles with paper labels, but these ones were stencilled bottles, as is quite common in Madeira. Horribly easy to fake, unfortunately. But then I discovered that the producer did also do these stencilled bottles, and also that they had several stencils with different character designs. And you could find the same wine with different presentations. It really doesn't help build confidence that bottles are genuine when the producer uses such different bottle presentations for the same wine.

(in reply to donogh)

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RE: Fake '81 Latour? - 6/13/2023 8:52:30 AM

DoubleD1969

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Many years ago, I had a vertical of Grange - ‘93, ‘95, ‘98, ‘02. I had purchased the ‘93 with the original case from a retailer, and the others from auction. When I was consolidating the bottles into the wood case, the younger vintages wouldn’t fit. I couldn’t understand why. So I stood them side-by-side and saw they were slightly different heights! I think I asked this forum (or another one) and was told Penfolds has used different size bottles.

(in reply to Echinosum)

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RE: Fake '81 Latour? - 8/31/2023 1:51:35 AM

donogh

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Hi all,

Apologies for the radio silence.

We finally opened both bottles of the Latour '81 this month. I can happily say that they were most definitely genuine. These are the photos we took:

https://imgur.com/a/GjFseCV

As it happens, the one with the more "suspect" capsule was in better condition, though both were very drinkable.

The first bottle's cork is the third photo: even with the Durand, it came apart more so than the other bottle's cork.

In general, they were super similar and still emminently drinkable. While not a classic vintage, we were very impressed.

Thank you all again for your contributions and feedback on this topic: I really appreciate your help and enthusiasm!

(in reply to DoubleD1969)

Post #: 11