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Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 8:27:04 AM

adoban

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Can anyone point me to a good web-site that has explanations of all the French hierarchies of label designations? You know, like a web-based "Wine for Dummies." Specifically, my friend and I are having a spirited debate over the meaning of the term "1er Cru" on the label, and whether or not it's indicative of a Premier Cru status, or just a labeling gimmick. I've also run across many French wines that list the term "Grand Cru" on the label, but their wine only sells for about $25.....sooooo confusing.

Thanks to all

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 8:37:53 AM

pjaines

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The excellent Wine Doctor......

http://www.thewinedoctor.com/regionalguides/regionalguideshome.shtml

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 8:38:54 AM

Bryan Collins

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Quickly...

"Premier Cru" is meaningful the heart of Burgundy (Cote de Nuits and Cote de Beaune, as well as parts of the Cote Chalonnaise) and in Chablis. It is virtually meaningless almost everywhere else. You need to be careful in the Chalonnaise - in some villages, such as Mercurey, it means pretty much what it means further north - ie a vineyard with the optential to make "better" wine than most - but in Montagny, which is also in the Chalonnaise, it just means that the wine has achieved a minimum level of alcohol (11.5%, iirc).

Also bear in mind that a Premier Cru, even from a famous vineyard, can be rubbish. Burgundy's classification system grades vineyards (or tries to) according to their potential. You can buy a top vineyard and make crap, and it'll still keep its designation.

Grand Cru is even worse. In Burgundy, it is the ultimate. The very best vineyards are their own appellations (eg Bonnes Mares; La Tache) and won't even say "Bourgogne" anywhere on the label, often. In St Emilion Grand Cru by itself means next to nothing, but Grand Cru Classé means rather more (and Premier Grand Cru Classé more still, being the best dozen or so Chateaux). It also has meaning in, say Alsace, although some top producers (eg Trimbach) don't even state Grand Cru on the labels of their best wines, even though they could. In most of France, Grand Cru means nothing, and generally if a term isn't defined in a given region, a winemaker can use it on his labels. If you buy a bottle of Rhone wine and it says "Grand Cru", this means nothing whatsoever.

So, as always, the answer to your question is "it depends".

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 8:40:27 AM

pjaines

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Which region do you have in mind? The French appellation controllee regulations are very stricts about 1er Cru and phrases such as that. You can't just slap on any labelling you see fit without invoking the wrath of the French govt - they take this more seriously than pretty much anything else

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 8:41:55 AM

pjaines

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Bryan - my understanding is that you cannot stick the phrase on the label unless it has been decreed by the relevant appellation - would that be correct?

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 8:50:39 AM

Bryan Collins

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You can stick all kinds of things on the label. In general, an appellation will have a list of classifications within that appellation. The use of these is strictly controlled (although they might be very easy to achieve, eg GC in St Emilion, or PC in Montagny). In the Rhone, GC means nothing, so the appellation rules are silent about the use of that phrase. My understanding (I could be wrong) is that it is therefore of no interest to the authorities if you choose to use that phrase on the label of a Rhone wine, as it's not claiming to be something specific which it isn't entitled to claim. Put GC on a bottle of generic Burgundian plonk, though, and you'd be in trouble.

In general, it's certainly the case that phrases like PC and GC will inevitably mean more in some places than others. Sometimes they are crucial, sometimes they mean nothing at all.

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 8:50:52 AM

adoban

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Thanks Bryan....this wine in particular is a Burgundy from the Cote d'Or region (can't remember the producer).

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 8:52:00 AM

Bryan Collins

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Aha - it means the most it could possibly mean - that the vineyard (or combination of vineyards) are genuinely "good" vineyards. Depending on the producer, it might still be appallingly bad wine...

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 8:55:42 AM

adoban

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That's what I believe Bryan, and the wine was very good, very well made. If I can find the bottle again at my local wine shop, I'll pass the name along just as an FYI.

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 8:57:17 AM

Khamen

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All depends on region.

1er Cru has a specific meaning in Burgundy, and has to come from a vineyard recognised as such. It is the step above the "Villages" wine. Similarly Grand Crus (the top rank in Burgund)are all based on vineyards - you can get a number of producers working the same 1er Cru or Grand Cru vineyard, and apart from the monopoles this is the norm

In Bordeaux the word to look for is "Classe". A "Grand Cru Classe" is a classified growth (1st to 5th) in the Medoc and is especially important in St Emillion, as a "Grand Cru" without "Classe" is in fact the level below classified. At the really pointy end of St Emillion then a Premier Grnd Cru Classe is the top "rank" (just to make it fun they split it into PGCC A and PGCC B, but ignore that as only Ausone and Cheval Blanc in the "A" category). Pomerol has no official ranking system at all. Again in raves and Pessac then the mgic word is "classe"

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 9:30:43 AM

masi3v

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Don't forget Champagne! Similar rules to those in Burgundy: Grand Cru for the top villages (17 in all: some are Grand Cru for both chardonnay and pinot noir, while some are classified as GC for just one or the other), Premier Cru for the next best tier. Each village is actually rated on a percentage basis with 100% being awarded GC status. I believe Premier Cru villages are rated 90-99% so some PC are 'better' than others. Don't see a whole lot of the GC in the US (and even less of the PC), but once you understand the Burgundy system, Champagne is very similar.

< Message edited by masi3v -- 6/21/2010 9:31:45 AM >

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 10:58:34 AM

MindMuse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: masi3v

Don't forget Champagne! Similar rules to those in Burgundy: Grand Cru for the top villages (17 in all: some are Grand Cru for both chardonnay and pinot noir, while some are classified as GC for just one or the other), Premier Cru for the next best tier. Each village is actually rated on a percentage basis with 100% being awarded GC status. I believe Premier Cru villages are rated 90-99% so some PC are 'better' than others. Don't see a whole lot of the GC in the US (and even less of the PC), but once you understand the Burgundy system, Champagne is very similar.

Similar, but it should still be noted that the Champagne cru classification applies to the whole village, whereas in Burgundy it applies specifically to the vineyard for a premier or grand cru.
I see Grand Cru a fair amount on some of the Grower Champagnes.

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 11:11:00 AM

masi3v

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MindMuse

Similar, but it should still be noted that the Champagne cru classification applies to the whole village, whereas in Burgundy it applies specifically to the vineyard for a premier or grand cru.
I see Grand Cru a fair amount on some of the Grower Champagnes.

Agreed, but the OP was asking the question from the POV of reading the label. On the label, the GC and PC designations on Champagne and Burgundy bottles mean essentially the same thing. Now granted, not all Burgundy Grand Crus will be "labeled" as such since it is not required: it might be simply labeled 'Le Montrachet' (or 'Bonnes Mares', 'Chambertin', etc.) with 'Grand Cru' nowhere on the label. In contrast, a GC Champagne will almost invariably have 'Grand Cru' somewhere on the label.

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RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/21/2010 11:18:04 AM

mbannon

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I would not consider this discussion to be "Wine 101" level. More like "Wine 355" or so. Please avoid misleading thread titles in the future.

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Post #: 14

RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/22/2010 12:34:06 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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Thewinedoctor.com is good, but Paul's already rec'd that.

You may get a lot from Berry Bros, much more than just classifications, they even tell you how to pronounce the French Chateaux!
Enjoy!
http://www.bbr.com/wine-knowledge
L.

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Post #: 15

RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/22/2010 1:40:25 PM

adoban

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For Bryan:

Here's the wine in question.

http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=544700

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Post #: 16

RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/23/2010 5:19:30 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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Between Bryan and treetops you should be able to get all your Burgundy questions answered.
Just don't trust them if they say it's better than Bordeaux ;)
L.

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Post #: 17

RE: Wine 101 Please - 6/23/2010 5:52:23 AM

Bryan Collins

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Hah! TT knows lots more than I do. I must admit I don't know that particular producer, but I'm glad the wine was enjoyable