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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/14/2022 11:12:46 AM

Sean McGrath

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum

Its environmental stability in general does make me wonder how it succeeds in working as a fungicide.

As far as I am aware, no-one really knows. It has been used by plants and people forever, though. Here's a nice article, in case you are interested.

https://academic.oup.com/jxb/article/55/404/1947/772396

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/15/2022 4:49:59 AM

khmark7

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From: Chicago suburbs
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum

Last two years I have had powdery mildew on my Phoenix (white). Destroyed it. It was fine the previous 12 years. Meanwhile my Regent (red) has been fine. It is much less leafy than the Phoenix, so maybe that reduces the risk. I do regularly prune excess leaves off the vines as they grow, eventually doing a 90% deleafing late in the season to expose the bunches to ripening. But by then the developing berries were already destroyed. Both are grown trained on wires on south-facing walls. Both are supposed to be mildew-resistant varieties suitable for cool, damp climates such as we have in south-eastern England.

Apparently we are no longer allowed to buy/use copper sulphate or similar as a fungicide as amateur gardeners, this side of the Atlantic. So no Bordeaux mix in the shop. Indeed it is hard getting any kind of fungicide for edible crops any more.

I have succeeded in finding some sulphur fungicide, which has only recently been released onto the market for amateurs. But it's an absolutely ridiculous price. Wholesale sulphur is $450/ton on the international market (assuming that "sulphur" for horticultural fungicide is indeed sulphur and not some compound they inaccurately call sulphur), but as a garden fungicide I have to pay £12 for less than an ounce.

Anyway, that is what I could buy without trying to see if I could make something myself from non-horticultural supplies.

So I gave the Phoenix a spray with the sulphur when the shoots were about 2 to 4 leaves long. I think somewhere said "at bud break" would have been better, but it took me a while to research the fungicide situation and find anything at all. Can anyone tell me what stages of growth in general I should spray it at?

And should I just go out and buy myself some copper sulphate from a non-horticultural source? I think you can buy it on-line. How would I mix it?

And what exactly is "sulphur" for spraying on vines? Can I also just buy some non-horticultural sulphur and make myself Bordeaux Mix?

Sulfur that i have purchased has always been in powder form that i mix with water. Copper is already in a blue solution that i dilute.

What i find interesting is that for years i have grown several vinifera vines in my yard, which i cover in the winter of course. They have always done well with respect to mildew and they are the "canary in the coalmine" for my yard. I think the key is prevention.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/15/2022 8:46:27 AM

Echinosum

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From: Buckinghamshire, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean McGrath

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
Its environmental stability in general does make me wonder how it succeeds in working as a fungicide.

As far as I am aware, no-one really knows. It has been used by plants and people forever, though. Here's a nice article, in case you are interested.
https://academic.oup.com/jxb/article/55/404/1947/772396

That is very interesting, thank you. At least I am assured it is a very powerful fungicide, even if the answer to the specific question "How does it work?" remains "Nobody knows".

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 7/24/2022 11:04:53 AM

khmark7

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Seeing veraison here, which is on schedule compared to previous years. I find this interesting because we had a very late spring, so the vines have caught themselves back up.

Bird netting will be out soon on the vines, and i already have it on my apples.

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Post #: 1204

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 3/16/2024 6:38:30 AM

khmark7

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Another year, another spring. Last year everything was on schedule with predictable bud break despite the warm spring, but this year we are a few weeks ahead of schedule. Grapes are already bleeding and it's only mid March. Expect bud break by early April looking ahead at the weather. The winery just west of town is probably hoping to delay bud break as much as possible, not an easy task with our weather.

My favorite part about growing grapes here in the city is when people walk past my yard in September and they are like "holy sheeet there are giant clusters of grapes hanging here!"

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 3/18/2024 9:10:35 AM

ChrisinCowiche

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Our vineyard did not get much attention last year due my accident and recovery. This year we hope to have a decent crop, make a Syrah at least, and I walked it last Thursday with Abraham to check for freeze damage. Ther was some, but not extensive. We've had a mild winter, but an extra hard freeze a few weeks ago. He indicated he would leave 3-4 buds per cane to give best chance for primary bud fruiting, and his crew pruned on Saturday while we were at Taste Washington. I looked out this morning at first light and everything is pruned down to 2 buds per cane, as "normal". I am hoping he did a broader block assessment and made the right call. We'll see in a few weeks, I guess.

Our weather has gone into full spring mode, highs in 60's, lows above freezing, so everything in the valley is going to be budding and blooming in overdrive. Lots of late snow in the mountains has helped with water situation and our property seems fairly wet. Well, as wet as it ever gets here.

I'm on 9th leaf/year, which seems hard to believe, and will put off irrigating as long as I can. We have a 2-week trip planned in July, so that may be first time I drench good with the drip before we leave. It is theoretical we could dry-farm here, but still pretty unlikely unless we get some natural rain in June through August.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 3/18/2024 10:49:15 AM

khmark7

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Most of my pruning is cane pruning, with longer canes....6-8 buds. A few of my established Frontenac vines are spur pruned however all my seedless vines need to be cane pruned. The majority of my vines are now 10-12 yrs old and they do NOT lack vigor....most years I need a machete pruning system.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 3/18/2024 11:27:01 AM

ChrisinCowiche

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Well, on second light/closer look, there seemed to have been a plant-by-plant assessment and many of the canes in my Rhone rows, Viognier/Roussanne/Syrah, ARE longer which means more chances for fruiting buds. It will be interesting to see vigor impacts with this arrangement, and I foresee a need for thinning even before things bloom fully. I need to weed-whack like crazy, so that will be this coming weekend's main goal, before the cover crop (sage, thistle, dandelions, various native grass) get too far gone. My mowers are all tuned and functional, just need the time and motivation to be out there, but it will give me a chance to look up close at progress of the buds. I'd have to look back at my notes but I think first/second week of April is my historical bud break.

< Message edited by ChrisinCowiche -- 3/18/2024 11:46:26 AM >

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 3/20/2024 3:04:23 AM

Echinosum

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Unfortunately the powdery mildew got worse last year despite my winter spray. It took out my red vine for the first time, as well as the white vine. It was apparently a terrible year locally for mildew in commercial vineyards.

For some reason, last year I couldn't easily find "lime" ie calcium hydroxide, at least not in sensible domestic quantities. So I tried mixing calcium sulphate with the copper sulphate, on the grounds that the copper sulphate would probably turn it to calcium sulphate anyway. But of course the result is far more acidic, when you want an alkaline spray, so I don't think that was right. This year I found the calcium hydroxide quite easily. But even the 500g I bought is 10 years supply, so I have vacuum packed it to try and keep it "fresh", as it does go off after you open it, because of the carbon dioxide in the air turning it to calcium carbonate. Hopefully real Bordeaux mix spray might do a better job this year.

When the mildew nonetheless hit my vines last year, I tried spraying with powdered sulphur mixed with water, which to my surprise did actually spray, even though water and powdered sulphur don't really mix very well. But it only held back the mildew briefly. And so I went with the copper sulphate again, which was a mistake as it burnt all the leaves and developing grapes, even though I reduced the concentration. I have now read a suggestion to spray with bicarbonate of soda, so I'll try that this year if the winter spray has not sufficed.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 3/20/2024 3:58:53 AM

khmark7

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Last year we had a dry April, May & June, but was normal afterwards and I didn't spray my grapes ONCE....which was unique. I had a little black rot, but Downy Mildew is rare around here and surprised I did not see Powdery Mildew....even on my Pinotage vine. Anyway....if you are restricted from using most commercial sprays are you also restricted from using horticultural oil sprays which are quite good at suppressing Powdery Mildew?

I did of course have to spray my apple trees because there are some local wild apple trees in the area that harbour bugs.

Low temperature last winter was -15° F, which is -26° C The Pinotage and Regent vines were covered, and the others have no issues with those temps, so if anything I will have reduced apricot and peach production this year. Apples and Pears can withstand very bitter temps.

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Post #: 1210