Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases?

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Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/4/2017 11:31:50 PM

klaus3974

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From: Living in Geneva, Switzerland
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Dear all,

I have a technical question on how to properly cellar wine for long keeping (15-20+ years). I have a passive cellar where the temperature does not fluctuate much during the year. I have most of my red wine in their original wooden cases. The cases are closed. Is this a good idea? Should I remove the cover so the air circulates better? I do not have the space to put everything on wine racks. I use the racks for the "daily drinkers".

Quick edit with a clarification: the wine I am talking about is wine that supposedly would age well (bordeaux, barolos, super tuscans, some Cali reds, Rioja Gran Reservas, etc.)

Thanks for your advice.

Nicolas

< Message edited by klaus3974 -- 7/5/2017 2:22:46 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 12:16:14 AM

barolo300

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Hi Klaus,

Yesterday I received a case of Unico 2002 that I had ordered for a client. It was still sealed in its wooden box, having been stored in the wine warehouse (temp and humidity controlled) for several years. That seems to be the way the pros do it, so I imagine it is fine to keep them in the box.

other may not different, (edit: "other may not different"... shoot. That was pre-coffee) but I would be surprised as I have often received older wines in their cases...

< Message edited by barolo300 -- 7/5/2017 1:11:55 AM >

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 12:57:58 AM

klaus3974

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From: Living in Geneva, Switzerland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barolo300

Hi Klaus,

Yesterday I received a case of Unico 2002 that I had ordered for a client. It was still sealed in its wooden box, having been stored in the wine warehouse (temp and humidity controlled) for several years. That seems to be the way the pros do it, so I imagine it is fine to keep them in the box.

other may not different, but I would be surprised as I have often received older wines in their cases...

Thanks Barolo. I thought that was the way everyone does it but doing some research on wineries to visit next week, I found that one of the winemakers strongly recommended to remove the cover of the case so the bottles receive more air.
I am asking because I would not like in 20 years when I open my barolos to tragically learn that I stored them the wrong way. I am sure some of the older members in this forum will have first hand experience with this. My cellar is still very young for me to know from experience.

< Message edited by klaus3974 -- 7/5/2017 12:58:51 AM >

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 1:06:16 AM

manuvernillo

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Hi Klaus,

the bottles and the cellars where they are stored need the air to circulate.
The humidity level should be high but not as much (around 60% is the best option) and the circulation of air prevents the arrival of bacteriums.

That's why it would be better if the are outside the wooden cases.

Wineries usually store their bottles outside wooden cases.

(in reply to klaus3974)

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 1:58:33 AM

Ricardo

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From: Ascot, UK
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I've never noticed any difference in quality whichever way they have been stored, going back through my wooden case purchases over the past 40 years (mainly Bordeaux).

I tend to keep them in the case until I want to drink the first bottle, then they all go in the racks. But sometimes the cases are requisitioned earlier by other family members as toy or tool chests....

(in reply to manuvernillo)

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 2:55:53 AM

manuvernillo

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quote:

I've never noticed any difference in quality whichever way they have been stored, going back through my wooden case purchases over the past 40 years (mainly Bordeaux).

I tend to keep them in the case until I want to drink the first bottle, then they all go in the racks. But sometimes the cases are requisitioned earlier by other family members as toy or tool chests....

I can imagine that nothing happened... And I am happy for you. My consideration comes from an analysis of the situations.
But wine storing is something very strange: my father had bottles of Taurasi from '70s stored at home, vertically, in the living room.
For curiosity we opened some last months and they were incredible: aromas, acidity, freshness, were still there.

We can only try to store our babies in the best possible ways, but many factors come in and in the end who knows...

(in reply to Ricardo)

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 7:28:29 AM

DoubleD1969

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quote:

ORIGINAL: manuvernillo
Hi Klaus,

the bottles and the cellars where they are stored need the air to circulate.
The humidity level should be high but not as much (around 60% is the best option) and the circulation of air prevents the arrival of bacteriums.

That's why it would be better if the are outside the wooden cases.

Wineries usually store their bottles outside wooden cases.

I am not sure if I agree with this. There are practical reasons wineries may not store their bottles in wood crates. For example, the wood crates would degrade faster in the damp cellars. It is also why the bottles aren't always labeled until they get shipped out.

I think the upside of keeping the bottles in their OWC (e.g., higher resale value should you sell) outweighs the downside if there are any.

(in reply to manuvernillo)

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 7:37:33 AM

manuvernillo

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quote:

I am not sure if I agree with this. There are practical reasons wineries may not store their bottles in wood crates. For example, the wood crates would degrade faster in the damp cellars. It is also why the bottles aren't always labeled until they get shipped out.

I think the upside of keeping the bottles in their OWC (e.g., higher resale value should you sell) outweighs the downside if there are any.

Hi DoubleD,

pros and wineries recommend to store the bottles in dark places, at a certain temperature (better it would be between 14 and 18 degrees), at a certain level of humidity (around 60%), and with circulation of air to prevent arrival of bacteriums. This is not just me who is saying that.

That's why, it is easy to understand that storing bottles in closed wooden cases means no circulation of air.

Then, if bottles stored in wooden cases, after years are still ok, this is another point...

(in reply to DoubleD1969)

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 7:43:17 AM

DoubleD1969

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Sealed wood cases are porous and are not air tight. Try putting them in a tub of water, and you'll see that the liquid will enter the wood case.

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 7:48:22 AM

mc2 wines

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Afraid don't have a good opinion here. As we pay by the case we don't store in the wood (and generally don't pay to store the wood as wine is an investment in our future enjoyment rather than a financial one).

If you visit offsite places where they offer lockers (rather than by the case) there's often folks storing in wooden cases.

If you visit wineries they seem to store just the bottles (but could be because they haven't been labeled, etc.).

Defer to better experts than me.

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 8:13:54 AM

manuvernillo

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quote:

Sealed wood cases are porous and are not air tight. Try putting them in a tub of water, and you'll see that the liquid will enter the wood case.

Yes, of course. And do you think this is a good reason to store the bottles there rather than outside?
In my opinion not.
You could leave bottles in wooden cases if you dont have a good cellar. Otherwise, any winery pro will give you the ad to have them outside.

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 8:15:29 AM

CranBurgundy

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Aaaaahhhh, some more obsessing about storage! I knew there was a repetitive topic that we hadn't repeated recently.

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 8:17:41 AM

manuvernillo

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quote:

Aaaaahhhh, some more obsessing about storage! I knew there was a repetitive topic that we hadn't repeated recently.

CranBurgundy, the big expert, is right.
Why should we store our bottles?

LET'S DRINK THEM!!

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 8:47:38 AM

hankj

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As was mentioned once before Klaus, and as you likely already know, whatever you do save the cases in case you ever decide to sell.

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 10:21:35 AM

KPB

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The one thing to watch for is that in very humid cellars, a wood case can develop TCA (like a cork would). The reek will be annoying in your cellar, plus it will quickly spread to the labels and reduce resale value of the case later, if you decide to resell it. I've had some annoyances of this kind, especially with older VPs where you might hold the case for many years.

With air circulating and normal humidity levels, this particular problem shouldn't occur -- basically, you don't want the wood cases under conditions where you would expect to see mildew form. TCA molds are in the same family. (The wood used for racks is typically cedar or some other wood that will resist mildew on its own...)

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 12:04:06 PM

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I don't keep mine in wooden cases.
I don't keep the tissue paper either.

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 12:21:12 PM

NurseDave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: manuvernillo

quote:

Sealed wood cases are porous and are not air tight. Try putting them in a tub of water, and you'll see that the liquid will enter the wood case.

Yes, of course. And do you think this is a good reason to store the bottles there rather than outside?
In my opinion not.
You could leave bottles in wooden cases if you dont have a good cellar. Otherwise, any winery pro will give you the ad to have them outside.

This was in response to boxes not having enough air flow to regulate humidity with the cellar. They are not air tight so the humidity inside the boxes will be pretty clost to that within the rest of the cellar so that would not be a problem.

(in reply to manuvernillo)

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 12:33:26 PM

ericindc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

The one thing to watch for is that in very humid cellars, a wood case can develop TCA (like a cork would). The reek will be annoying in your cellar, plus it will quickly spread to the labels and reduce resale value of the case later, if you decide to resell it. I've had some annoyances of this kind, especially with older VPs where you might hold the case for many years.

With air circulating and normal humidity levels, this particular problem shouldn't occur -- basically, you don't want the wood cases under conditions where you would expect to see mildew form. TCA molds are in the same family. (The wood used for racks is typically cedar or some other wood that will resist mildew on its own...)

This to me is the only downside to storing in wooden boxes. In fact, i just removed 2 wood storage boxes when I repacked my cellar because of the smell. They were older boxes I picked up from 1982 and 1978, and they were fairly reeking of TCA.

Also, the idea of wine boxes needing air to "circulate" makes no sense from a physical point of view. The crates are porous and even if there is no air circulating, diffusion will keep humidity, O2, CO2 levels the same. The temp in a passive cellar may start to layer from top to bottom, but in an active cellar, as long as the air can get under and around the boxes, it will pretty much be all the same.

< Message edited by ericindc -- 7/5/2017 12:36:35 PM >

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 1:45:10 PM

Redrunners

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I don't keep the wooden cases or the tissue paper.

Given the wood is porous, probably doesn't make much difference in the aging.

I have heard that if you plan to resell, there are higher prices for wine still in the wooden box, vs individual bottles (for the same 6 or 12 bottles).

If you plan to drink and not ever planning to resell - just store them however works best for your location.

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/5/2017 2:48:54 PM

CranBurgundy

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If the tissue paper wrapping is still around the bottle, I'll keep it on. Any extra defense against light is a good thing.

I do have a few OWCs in the cellar, usually on higher end Cabs. All are inside their original shipping cardboard, and I usually put them at the bottom of a stack of boxes.

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/6/2017 2:46:13 PM

hankj

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The paper wrapping on bottles is crazy-making. So fussy to keep it nice when sliding bottles in or out of racks. I used to try to preserve it, but now just tear it off.

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/6/2017 6:21:09 PM

Franklin 10

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To your original question: I don't think there's extra risk with owb storage. If that's a good option in your storage, do it without unnecessary concern. If those boxes rot and smell, the hassle/benefit for other options may seem to favor them. Starting your journey with the convenient and perfectly good boxes is a good choice.

IMHO

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/7/2017 9:37:35 AM

cookiefiend

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin 10

To your original question: I don't think there's extra risk with owb storage. If that's a good option in your storage, do it without unnecessary concern. If those boxes rot and smell, the hassle/benefit for other options may seem to favor them. Starting your journey with the convenient and perfectly good boxes is a good choice.

IMHO

+1

Plus they are great for stacking…

Like when you have way more wine than you have racks for…

<cough>

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/7/2017 1:42:39 PM

skifree

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I keep a lot of wine in OWC with the top off - part of my racking includes spaces for OWC, so I slide the boxes in with the top off - though I admit it is so I can pull a bottle easily, not for improved air flow.

I do have two cases I have never opened - 2009 Montrose and 2010 GPL - so young I am not worried about them, will try some before too long. I also have some 2009 and 2010 Burgundy in wooden boxes as well (not OWC) - at the top of my racks - free up some space on the individual bottle racks for things I can drink this decade or next.

I do have a bunch of yellow cardboard Cayuse boxes sitting on the floor of my cellar at the moment - I may not be the only one with that problem <cough>

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/7/2017 1:58:59 PM

Blue Shorts

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The case provides an extra layer of insulation, which is a benefit. I would expect no negative side-effects from storing in wood cases. Plus, if ou decide to sell, wine in the original wood cases can sometimes fetch a bit more on the market.

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RE: Keeping your wine: with or without wooden cases? - 7/7/2017 6:34:09 PM

CranBurgundy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: skifree

I do have a bunch of yellow cardboard Cayuse boxes sitting on the floor of my cellar at the moment

Max Ferd. Richter and JJ Prüm boxes on my cellar floor - complete with the wine they originally came with! Both brands are white boxes with green writing though.

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Vote NO on Proposition S1ct1516 "BAN the CRAN!" this Election Day.

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