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Whole Cluster vs. Destemmed - 8/1/2017 10:59:45 AM   
mercurius

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 7/7/2017
Status: offline 		I would love to do a horizontal where the only thing changed is the amount of stem in the maceration. I usually dig whole cluster Northern Rhones and Burgundies and would love to see how how whole cluster compares to 50% destemmed and completely destemmed. Any ideas of a good oenologist who is doing this? Thanks.

< Message edited by mercurius -- 8/1/2017 11:10:43 AM >
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RE: Whole Cluster vs. Destemmed - 8/1/2017 11:28:34 AM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

Posts: 7845
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
Status: offline 		I'm not aware of anyone who has done a controlled trial where this might stand out. I know many wineries who use stems in varying amounts but unless it was same lot of fruit, same vineyard, same vintage, I think the other variables might dilute the study. Somebody out there may be doing this, though.

A small study might be worth doing if you knew somebody growing Syrah and Pinot side by side who was willing to take a couple hundred pounds or so and ferment them in separate batches and then keep them separate through secondary fermentation, cooperage and bottling, keep all other variables as consistent as possible.

If you want to help design the study and sample the results, I'll do it for 2017 vintage, I'm interested enough in the question to play around a bit with a few hundred pounds of fruit. My plan would be do a "main batch" in whatever stem load I want then do a couple of small batches with ZERO stems and 100% whole cluster. Hardest challenge might be oaking similarly, but with 3-6 gallon batches (carboy sizes), it can be done.

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RE: Whole Cluster vs. Destemmed - 8/1/2017 11:55:17 AM   
mc2 wines

 

Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/31/2012
From: NYC
Status: offline 		There's a winery in Oregon that has done this with Pinot. White Rose Estate. They offer what they call an "Explorer's Club" that gives you a couple bottles from the same vineyard where everything is the same except for one variable.

One of the first shipments we got was the 2014 vintage with a variation on stem inclusion - one bottle was 20% stem inclusion and the other was 80% stem inclusion (they did this for 3 different vineyards, so we get to try all 6 side by side).

The 2015 vintages explored Oak treatment - neutral oak, 20%, 40% and 60% new oak for one vineyard; then American vs. Russian vs. French vs. Hungarian for a second vineyard.

It's a really interesting way to the impact of these kinds of variables.

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RE: Whole Cluster vs. Destemmed - 8/1/2017 12:07:17 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4658
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		You can probably find two different wines from ToKalon (Napa), one destemmed and one fermented as whole clusters. Basically identical fruit. But with different wine makers many things could vary, and for destemmed fruit, the wine would see more oak...

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RE: Whole Cluster vs. Destemmed - 8/1/2017 12:15:39 PM   
mercurius

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 7/7/2017
Status: offline 		Thanks so much. Just sent them an email. Exactly what I was looking for.

(in reply to KPB)
Post #: 5
RE: Whole Cluster vs. Destemmed - 8/1/2017 1:00:36 PM   
jmcmchi

 

Posts: 3220
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline 		Melville did something like this on their Block M Pinot Noir 2014 - zero stems and a regular 70% whole cluster. I much preferred the latter

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Post #: 6
RE: Whole Cluster vs. Destemmed - 8/1/2017 1:28:48 PM   
dontime

 

Posts: 9515
Joined: 8/11/2009
From: Orlando, FL
Status: offline 		Mike Smith (Myriad, Quivet) does this with some of his Syrah.

2014 Myriad Cellars Syrah Esther Block Las Madres Vineyard

2014 Myriad Cellars Syrah 100% Whole Cluster Las Madres Vineyard

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dontime

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non regna il silenzio"

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Post #: 7
RE: Whole Cluster vs. Destemmed - 8/7/2017 3:50:56 PM   
wineopsguy

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 2/7/2017
Status: offline 		Domaine L'Arlot does this. I just recently had a tasting of their 2015's that just came out and it was really cool to see how wines from Clos L'Arlot from various parcels are macerated and made in different ways - from a 100% whole cluster to de-stemmed. The wines needless to say are very different.

I am a big fan of these comparisons and I always felt it would be very interesting to see if small batches are made differently but most of the producers when asked say they make decisions based on how the grapes taste so I guess it defeats the point except for some fun.

One other comparision that gives me a kick every year is to taste the Sandhi La Cote and Domaine de la Cote La Cote wines. Same vineyard in santa rita hills, one made for glug glug wine (Sandhi) and one for serious aging (DDLC) with the two styles of pinot making.

(in reply to dontime)
Post #: 8
RE: Whole Cluster vs. Destemmed - 8/7/2017 4:27:59 PM   
River Rat

 

Posts: 1339
Joined: 4/29/2010
From: Forestville, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dontime

Mike Smith (Myriad, Quivet) does this with some of his Syrah.

2014 Myriad Cellars Syrah Esther Block Las Madres Vineyard

2014 Myriad Cellars Syrah 100% Whole Cluster Las Madres Vineyard


2012, '13, '14 Quivet Cellars Syrah Kenefick Ranch
2012, '13, '14 Quivet Cellars Syrah Whole Cluster Kenefick Ranch
2011, '12, '13 Myriad Cellars Syrah Sugarlof Mountain Vineyard
2011, '12, '13 Myriad Cellars Syrah 100% Whole Cluster Sugarlof Mountain Vineyard

And his Pinot
2012 '13, '14 Ancillary Cellars Pinot Noir Sun Chase
2012, '13, '14 Ancillary Cellars Whole Cluster Pinot Noir Sun Chase

(in reply to dontime)
Post #: 9
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