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Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/10/2017 6:07:17 PM

arthrovine

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From: PDX
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Like many others, I have stacks of cardboard case boxes, cardboard shippers etc, scattered around storage units, garages, wine cellars, etc. These are obviously very valuable to us (wine hoarders) and saved for future transport, sale, etc. I decided to clean out a portion of my garage and get rid of 25-30 cardboard boxes with shippers. A box anchoring a tower of empties seemed oddly heavy. What could be in there? I am, after all, an expert CellarTracker since 2008. Christmas apparently came in November as the shipper contained a case of undocumented wine. This box has not moved for 4 maybe 5 years. My unheated oversized garage is 1/2 underground, backs up to a forested creek, and has a southern exposure. The door is insulated. I park two cars in it.

I have been drinking wine from this case for the past few weeks. Each one of these wines showed brilliantly without exposure flaws. Moreover, I have tasted the Hanzell and Seven of Hearts against those stored in my offsite (professional) storage and they're nearly identical.

2008 Seven of Hearts Pinot Reserve
2001 Roagna Barolo La Rocca e La Pira
2010 Hanzell Chardonnay
2010 Dönnhoff Oberhäuser Brücke Riesling Spätlese
1999 Togni Cabernet

This case of undocumenteds has experience our hottest summers (100+) and coldest/snowiest winters of record during its 4 years of hiding in plain sight.

Who needs active cooling??

Post #: 1

RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/10/2017 6:16:41 PM

CranBurgundy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: arthrovine

Who needs active cooling??

In many cases, I agree completely. The more hearty varieties (Cab, Port, Riesling) will withstand large temperature swings relatively easily. However, I've had bad experiences with Vouvray and a bottle or two of Champagne that suffered prolonged exposure to heat, so I have a 30 bottle Danby for my older Vouvray (10+ years) and anything from 2009 or more recent always ends up on the bottom of the stack of my passive cellar in a styrofoam storage box, the thinking being that the floor is a couple degrees cooler than the top of the stack. I'm lucky that my cellar has a vent so I can open it wide during summer, and close it in the winter, to keep my cellar at an average of 61˚ with it getting no higher than 64˚ or maybe 65˚.

< Message edited by CranBurgundy -- 12/10/2017 6:17:53 PM >

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/10/2017 6:41:05 PM

fingers

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I’m going to guess that a little bit of the money I’ve spent on wine fridges over the years has, in turn, been spent on the “keep the cork” campaign. Aging aside, so much of wine storage concern centers around maintaining the integrity of the cork, though superior closures would give a lot more leeway in regards to storage environment. Arthrovine’s example is a reminder of just how durable the juice is.
Off soapbox.
Back to your normally scheduled program

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/10/2017 6:45:25 PM

ChrisinCowiche

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quote:

I am, after all, an expert CellarTracker since 2008

Ha! Merry Christmas Joe!

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/11/2017 3:33:03 AM

penguinoid

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I've stored wine at home with no issue so far -- for short term ageing. I am fairly sure that most wines would be ok for 3, 4 or maybe 5 years. I am also fairly sure this would be a bad idea for wine I wanted to store for 10 or 20 years, at least here. If I were able to do that, I'd want to invest in a proper cellar -- or keep the wine offsite (which I used to do when I was in Adelaide, but haven't recently).

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/11/2017 4:40:54 AM

annerk

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I typically store it all in three coolers. I am trying to pare down the cellar as we will likely be moving (possibly cross country) in 2018. I got my 2013 and 2014 Barrel Projects cases last week from Smig. Checked them in, added the labels, and repacked them back into the shippers, which are currently stored on their side in a closet that stays cool (under 72 even in the summer) year round. I know they won't get heat damaged at that temp, and I'm not concerned with them aging faster.

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/11/2017 5:11:18 AM

khmark7

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I have a lot of Bordeaux, some of it from the 2004 & 2005 vintage that has spent the majority of it's life at ambient basement temps without any major flaws. My coolers keep the wines at an ideal drinking temp, but for short temp aging i'm sure they are not needed. That said......much of my stuff will be long term, so the coolers are good for that. Sometimes in the winter i will actually turn the coolers off.

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/11/2017 6:40:30 AM

Hollowine

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I've long held the belief that wine is much more resilient than we geeks (and the equipment manufacturers of our geekdom) give it credit for. Certainly not all wines can take non-perfect conditions, but many can and are no worse for the wear.

That said, I think I'll still be most comfortable with my nicest treasures inside the conditioned cellar for that added piece of mind.

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/11/2017 9:41:17 AM

jmcmchi

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Before the days of technical marvels and huge budgets, (Hugh Johnson in 1971 edition of the "world Atlas of Wine") the recommended alternative to an underground cellar "which are no longer built" read

"even a cupboard can have the simple requirements of darkness, freedom from vibration, and - if not the ideal coolness- at least an even temperature. Wine is not over-fussy about temperature. Anything from 45 to about 70 F will do"

His 1986 "Cellar Book" expands the bottom of the range to 40, but emphasizes the risks of frequent large fluctuations in temperature

That advice worked for me for many years

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Post #: 9

RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/11/2017 10:41:13 AM

mclancy10006

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Well when you live where I do and it is a big news event when we have 5 days in a row below 70F its not optional. That said in other places where I have lived or in the case of my folks where I stash wine I think you can do quite well with passive storage if it does not have big swings.
-Mark

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/11/2017 10:59:12 AM

EugeneDiNapoli

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I agree. I have always been more concerned with rapid temperature fluctuation than the absolute temperature (assuming we are dealing with absolute temps below 72 degrees). In addition to the Hugh Johnson reference above, the book How and Why to Build a Wine Cellar by Richard M Gold, does a great job of explaining how consistent temperature swings and the accompanying pressure changes in the bottle may impact the amount of oxygen the wine is subjected to and can cause the wine to deteriorate. There are a lot of variables here and one of the more important one is size and quality of the cork. The author conducted some very interesting experiments to illustrate his points. The book ultimately concludes a slow gradual change of temperature of up to 14 degrees through the course of the year has minimal adverse effect to the wine, and goes on to recommend the passive approach to wine storage. I followed the advice in this book over 20 years ago and constructed a super insulated room in my basement The walls and ceiling are insulated (R35+) with the basement floor exposed. The temperature slowly changes about one degree a month from a low of 53 degrees to a high of 65 degrees.
I'll never know for sure but it seems to have worked out for me, my twenty year old bottles are all drinking fine!

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/11/2017 11:37:17 AM

CranBurgundy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EugeneDiNapoli

The temperature slowly changes about one degree a month from a low of 53 degrees to a high of 65 degrees.

Pretty much the same here, but with a little smaller window. The usual temperature range is 58˚ to 64˚, with very rare dips to 56˚ and spikes to 67˚. I think I've only seen a temperature over 64˚ 3 times in the last 5 years, and it's never over 67˚.

70˚ is my top temperature of comfort, and the 4 30+ bottle Danby units (1 for Vouvray, 1 Riesling, 1 Burgundy / Bordeaux, and 1 Cabs / Port / Italian) run at 53˚ - 56˚ all year.

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Purple Drankin' Cretin.

Vote NO on Proposition S1ct1516 "BAN the CRAN!" this Election Day.

“Let it be recorded: henceforth, December 15 shall be known as 'The Day of Dennis'.” - Prof. Ken "KPB" Birman, 12/17/23

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/11/2017 2:15:03 PM

Tanatastic

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I think I've posted many times, but my cellar is effectively in the foundations of the building.

It's exactly under the north corner (result) is pitch black, the nearest road is 100m away, but.....

It's exceedingly damp and dank
It's infested with 'vermin' - certainly mice (make their homes amongst the bottles in a particularly cold winters), frogs, ants (buried a couple of bins whilst excavating one year - I was worried about the house TBH) and I'm pretty certain rats (I've seen big rodents, don't exactly know what they are).
It's very dirty
It's full of marvelous coloured and shaped funghi (I wish I could upload a photo, they even made my biologist friend say 'eeuurgh')
It's prone to flooding

This means the labels can be a bit of a disgrace, and any bottle that's been down there more than a couple of years needs a good wipe before use. And yet, despite this warning:

quote:

I’m going to guess that a little bit of the money I’ve spent on wine fridges over the years has, in turn, been spent on the “keep the cork” campaign. Aging aside, so much of wine storage concern centers around maintaining the integrity of the cork, though superior closures would give a lot more leeway in regards to storage environment. Arthrovine’s example is a reminder of just how durable the juice is.
Off soapbox.

After over 13 years now, I've rarely had a problem with corks (twice as it happens, both multiple bottles from the same producer - my gut tells me it wasn't the cellar). Indeed, and I've repeated this enough times too, the most corked bottle of wine I've ever had was actually under a screwcap.

Wine (even with corks) is pretty tough stuff, as my ongoing experiment seems to prove.

< Message edited by Tanatastic -- 12/11/2017 2:16:01 PM >

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/11/2017 2:28:24 PM

jmcmchi

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Yep, wine is good with humidity, a shame labels aren't....which is maybe why the old way with port bottles was to daub them

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RE: Temperature Controlled Cellar....blah blah blah - 12/11/2017 5:16:38 PM

penguinoid

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quote:

Indeed, and I've repeated this enough times too, the most corked bottle of wine I've ever had was actually under a screwcap

That's certainly a possibility, but luckily is mostly rare. I have heard that one possibility is additives (such as tartaric acid or sulfur dioxide) being stored on wooden pallets that have TCA in them -- this gets from the wood into the additive, and from there into the wine :-(

I paid a small amount for outside (passive) storage when I was in Adelaide, as temperatures there often go above 40°C (104°F) in summer, sometimes above 45°C (113°F), and it's also very dry. Here (near Brisbane), it's subtropical and humid but temperatures don't often go above 33°C (91°F) -- still too hot, but ok for short term storage, which is all I want at the moment.

If I lived somewhere where temperatures didn't often go above 70°F (or I could create a passive cellar that stayed below that), I'd be quite happy to store wine long term then. I wouldn't think active cooling is essential if you can create a decent passively cooled cellar.

However, take this all with a grain of salt -- I probably have the least experience of cellaring wine of anyone here. I'd love to put some wine away to cellar long term, but I move too frequently for that.

< Message edited by penguinoid -- 12/11/2017 5:20:51 PM >

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