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Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/24/2017 11:07:33 AM   
annerk

 

Posts: 6122
Joined: 10/16/2008
From: Central Florida
Status: offline 		I mentioned in another thread that I’ve come across more than my share of flawed wines this year (not all from my cellar).

Three times this year I have requested replacement. One was replaced by a one year newer by the retailer (they were sold out of the previous vintage and this vintner is so consistent that they could be NV), Blackbird couldn’t have been more apologetic and immediately reacted to the replacement request, and another Napa vintner (Palazzo) ignored two voice mails, an email, and even a call out on social media. I had a few others that were low cost daily drinkers that I just took the hit, wasn’t worth the effort of securing a replacement.

Just wondering if others feel flawed bottles should be replaced, and what your criteria are. Do you go direct to vintner, to the retailer, and what if the flawed vintage is no longer available?

Just to be clear, I am talking flaws, not damage. That I believe becomes a different conversation.

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/24/2017 11:41:54 AM   
CranBurgundy

 

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From: Philly / South Joizey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: annerk

Just to be clear, I am talking flaws, not damage. That I believe becomes a different conversation.


A quick question: what do you consider the difference between "flawed" and "damaged"? Is a flaw a corked (TCA) or cooked (exposed to high heat) wine? Is damaged a torn label or anything else physically wrong with the bottle?

I've had flawed bottles that were from auction (corked, dead from poor storage, etc.), so I was S.O.L. since it's bid at your own risk. I've also had flawed bottles (that disgusting sauerkraut smell) that the winery replaced with a different vintage that also had the same problem, so we no longer buy from that brand.

To me, the mark of a good business isn't zero mistakes, it's how the mistakes are handled. Nobody is perfect and stuff happens. When a manufacturer / producer sells a defective product they should replace it or refund the consumer's money.

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/24/2017 11:43:03 AM   
champagneinhand

 

Posts: 10280
Joined: 5/30/2011
From: Upstate New York, California born.
Status: offline 		I keep my receipts and go to whomever I bought it from, unless of course it was an auction bottle and I accepted the risks.

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/24/2017 12:14:32 PM   
jmcmchi

 

Posts: 3202
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline 		Like CiH, I take the flawed bottle to the store/winery where purchased. I've only had corked (not cooked, fortunately) bottles, and never had a problem obtaining replacement or credit towards a different bottle if no longer in stock.

I have had the issue at a restaurant bar, where I had to insist on replacement or tell the server I would only pay for the faulty bottle if he drank it in front of me right then....that resolved the issue

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Post #: 4
RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/24/2017 12:15:58 PM   
annerk

 

Posts: 6122
Joined: 10/16/2008
From: Central Florida
Status: offline 		Flaws such as TCA, VA, excessive Brett, reductive to the point that it doesn’t resolve with a decant, or a wine (non-sparkling or frizzante) undergoing a secondary fermentation after bottling.

I am not talking about heat damage, prem-ox, torn labels, etc.

That said I got a bottle once that had a large wedge missing from the neck opening—around 1/2”-3/4” along each angle. If felt concerned that there might be glass fragments in the wind itself. I did ask for the bottle to be replaced and the winemaker seemed horrified that I had received that bottle in the condition it was in and gladly replaced it

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/24/2017 1:06:06 PM   
jerry6

 

Posts: 196
Status: offline 		How long after purchase do you expect a refund ? Under 1 year after purchase I'e had no problem getting a refund , over 1 year not as clear , sometimes yes sometime no way .

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Post #: 6
RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/24/2017 1:52:52 PM   
annerk

 

Posts: 6122
Joined: 10/16/2008
From: Central Florida
Status: offline 		For wines where aging is suggested or at least expected, I think the winery should stand behind it’s product through the drinking window.

The flawed bottles of Blackbird was an ‘06, about midway through it’s window.

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/24/2017 6:30:02 PM   
khmark7

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: annerk

For wines where aging is suggested or at least expected, I think the winery should stand behind it’s product through the drinking window.

The flawed bottles of Blackbird was an ‘06, about midway through it’s window.


I don't agree. Cork is an inherit flawed product. No guarantees.

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/24/2017 7:57:36 PM   
champagneinhand

 

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From: Upstate New York, California born.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: annerk

For wines where aging is suggested or at least expected, I think the winery should stand behind it’s product through the drinking window.

The flawed bottles of Blackbird was an ‘06, about midway through it’s window.


I don't agree. Cork is an inherit flawed product. No guarantees.

TCA is a contamination. Flawed. Everything is flawed to some extent. Which is why you have wineries really either paying for alternatives to basic crumble cork or going some other route, but when you pay higher prices because a winery or retailer deems this a premium product then as a consumer you have higher expectations. If you were buying a sports car, you would have the expectation of faster acceleration, even understanding it would impact fuel consumption, could reduce lifespan... a SUV should give you better driving capabilities in less than ideal road/weather conditions, though not always true as tires and the person choosing a safer path, distance between cars...

When it’s a flawed screcap or the glass stopper, you should also expect a credit or replacement as those are also capable of being flawed.

If you had a meal not cooked correctly, or just the wrong items on part of your plate, would you not send it back or expect the restaurant to make accommodations for the error?

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/24/2017 9:51:55 PM   
jmcmchi

 

Posts: 3202
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline 		Whether it's a $5 bottle or a $150 bottle, the customer has a right to expect it to be sound ("fit for purpose") and the producer should expect to meet the cost of either making the process sound (screw cap or expensive cork) or reimbursing consumers for the faulty product..

It reminds me of the story of the early days of the Japanese entry into the car industry... a Japanese component supplier was asked to guarantee 1 part per 100 faulty. The first batch arrives with a plastic bag attached containing 10 units and a note saying "we have found these defective units, but are not sure what you want them for; please reduce this requirement because it costs us a lot to create so many faulty units"

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/25/2017 5:12:30 PM   
khmark7

 

Posts: 11405
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From: Chicago suburbs
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quote:

ORIGINAL: champagneinhand


quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: annerk

For wines where aging is suggested or at least expected, I think the winery should stand behind it’s product through the drinking window.

The flawed bottles of Blackbird was an ‘06, about midway through it’s window.


I don't agree. Cork is an inherit flawed product. No guarantees.

TCA is a contamination. Flawed. Everything is flawed to some extent. Which is why you have wineries really either paying for alternatives to basic crumble cork or going some other route, but when you pay higher prices because a winery or retailer deems this a premium product then as a consumer you have higher expectations. If you were buying a sports car, you would have the expectation of faster acceleration, even understanding it would impact fuel consumption, could reduce lifespan... a SUV should give you better driving capabilities in less than ideal road/weather conditions, though not always true as tires and the person choosing a safer path, distance between cars...

When it’s a flawed screcap or the glass stopper, you should also expect a credit or replacement as those are also capable of being flawed.

If you had a meal not cooked correctly, or just the wrong items on part of your plate, would you not send it back or expect the restaurant to make accommodations for the error?


Cork cannot be guaranteed perfect like a glass stopper or a manufactured auto part. So much so, that we accept it's flaws. If we accept it's flaws we shouldn't IMO expect a refund. Screw caps avoid this dilemma, but many of us balk at those closures for different reasons. If we as a consumer insist on cork we should simply accept it, otherwise where do you draw the line?? Cork taint, cork crumble, oxidized? How old?

If i insisted that the chef cook my ribeye using a primitive meat on a stick method circa 1800 then i shouldn't be upset when the meat tastes like crap.

Cork also has an acceptable fail rate of 1 in 12. No auto part has that poor of a record.

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Post #: 11
RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/25/2017 11:21:06 PM   
jerry6

 

Posts: 196
Status: offline 		At what age do winery replace the corks on bottles they hold back ? Can a cork really be expected to last 20 to 30 years ? When wines have a drinking window of 40 plus years what do you do ? I have bottles that say drink until 2075 , really , can one expect the cork to last 80 years ? Don't think any store or winery will replace a 10 or 20 year old bottle , unless you bought the 20 year old bottle in the last year .

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/26/2017 12:32:35 AM   
jmcmchi

 

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Status: offline 		I know of one store at least that says >10 year old wines are purchased at buyer's risk .....

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/26/2017 12:41:07 AM   
jmcmchi

 

Posts: 3202
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline 		And I would have doubts about any implied promise of a wine being enjoyable for 60 years except maybe for the traditional keepers, and even then, that would be vintage and storage dependent....but then I haven't drunk anything over 50

But some first growths did have a cork replacement programme. Not sure of current situation

< Message edited by jmcmchi -- 12/26/2017 12:43:56 AM >

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/26/2017 5:39:10 AM   
wineismylife

 

Posts: 6484
Joined: 11/7/2006
From: Arlington, TX
Status: offline 		Flawed bottles should be replaced or refunded, period.

I like to think of this like any other consumer product. If you purchase a product from somebody that has a manufacturing defect there is no question on whether you're due a refund. Open a package of cheese when you get home and it has mold? They don't hesitate to take it back. Why should I be forced to eat the cost of a $50.00 bottle of wine that has a manufacturing flaw any more than I should accept a flat bottle of soda from a grocery store?

Sure, if they want it back I'm happy to ship it back to them at their cost. Fair is fair.

Now having said all of that a lot of times I dump it down the drain and move on. If I get a $35.00 bottle of TCA infected Chianti I usually dump and don't bother taking it back to the retailer. I'm a $200.00 an hour kind of guy. My time isn't worth the cost of buying it AND returning it.

My two cents worth.

< Message edited by wineismylife -- 12/26/2017 5:40:49 AM >

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/26/2017 10:44:59 AM   
annerk

 

Posts: 6122
Joined: 10/16/2008
From: Central Florida
Status: offline 		If wineries offered a choice of cork or Stelvin and the buyer chooses cork, then perhaps the onus for the defective product should be on the buyer. Until that point, producer should take responsibility and in the case of a large number of defective corks, seek recourse with the cork supplier/insurance as Cayuse did.

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/27/2017 7:38:21 AM   
River Rat

 

Posts: 1331
Joined: 4/29/2010
From: Forestville, CA
Status: offline 		I think the argument that we should just keep quiet and eat the cost of the flawed bottle is silly. The fact that we do not immediately consume wine purcahses doesn’t make any dufference. Dennis, you are not naive, torn label, seriously? TCA, VA, Brett, Reduction, Smoke Taint, secondary fermentation (just do the Molly Dooker Shake) are all production flaws the winemaker is aware of at bottling ‘cept for TCA and 2ndary Ferm. It’s cheaper to replace bottles for the small minority who will ask than to dump the entire lot.

Age should not matter, (Cork failure after 20 yrs is not a flaw, TCA on a 2oyr okd wine is) the wine was flawed when it was bottled or infected when the cork was inserted. That is not the fault of the consumer. The cost of replacing a bottle is far far less than the cost of bad press from a customer who feels taken advantage of when a legitimate replacement request is ignored. I’ve returned a 20yr old corked wine. It happens.

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Post #: 17
RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/27/2017 10:16:39 AM   
CranBurgundy

 

Posts: 8272
Joined: 1/5/2016
From: Philly / South Joizey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: River Rat

Dennis, you are not naive, torn label, seriously?


Yes, seriously. A torn label wouldn't bother me one bit, but it does drive some people nuts. There's even been threads about it on Wine Berserkers. It made one Berserker go berserk.

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Vote NO on Proposition S1ct1516 "BAN the CRAN!" this Election Day.

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/28/2017 7:20:20 PM   
Smaragd

 

Posts: 716
Joined: 2/3/2017
From: New York City
Status: offline 		A moderate approach here is very useful. I think both buyer and seller bear responsibility for corked bottles, and the store usually has room in their budget to shoulder the burden. I return one or two bottles a year (normally under 10 years in age) for cork taint, to my local shop where I shop most. They are happy to oblige (sometimes without a receipt, since I'm known there). I have bought very old bottles there, too, and wouldn't mind if they balked at offering a refund.

Oddly, the older and more expensive the bottle, the more amenable I am to accepting the full risk of the purchase. Explain that to me please!

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/29/2017 2:39:39 PM   
mclancy10006

 

Posts: 4501
Joined: 3/19/2007
From: Cape Cod, MA & Bellevue, WA
Status: offline 		I usually suck it up part of wine experience and don't try to go back to retailers after the fact. Especially as it might be years later. As some of you know I am hyper sensitive to Brett and have had many ruined bottles which are not drinkable for me and other people like. I have had other that are flawed in other ways too. The only time I thought about going to the retailer is when multiple bottles from the same purchase were flawed. I did not actually do it, but I thought about it. :) I may yet in the future.

-Mark

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/29/2017 3:47:46 PM   
S1

 

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From: Wandering between Coastal SC and South FL
Status: offline 		We had a corked bottle last night--not worth shipping it all the way back across the country.

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/29/2017 7:46:32 PM   
JerryL

 

Posts: 596
Joined: 12/27/2012
From: Kenmore, Wa
Status: offline 		I have mentioned it to wineries that I care about, but not if I don't. They always try to fix it. A joined a winery near my parent's house in the bay area to try to give me a reason to go more often. The first shipment was completely cooked. We quit and chalked it up to experience.

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/30/2017 10:52:06 AM   
dbg

 

Posts: 569
Joined: 10/25/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Just because I buy wine doesn't mean I consider corked bottles acceptable. I accept that there is a risk a bottle will be corked but I do not accept that the risk is mine.

That said, I rarely bother unless it's an expensive bottle. For US wines, I have contacted the winery and on the 2 occasions I've done this the winery was extremely helpful. In one case they replaced with a slightly younger/more highly regarded vintage. For non-US wines, the only recourse seems to be the store where I bought it. Tried this once with an aged bottle and was met with an offer for store credit equal to what I paid.

For cooked or oxidized wine I just take the hit.


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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/30/2017 11:34:20 AM   
wadcorp

 

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From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: annerk

Just wondering if others feel flawed bottles should be replaced, and what your criteria are. Do you go direct to vintner, to the retailer, and what if the flawed vintage is no longer available?


Just last year, I contacted Clos Du Val regarding a single-vineyard 2005 cab we'd bought at the winery. Upon opening it was corked & a half. Just nasty. They were beyond gracious & immediately sent out a replacement bottle. Same vintage.

I've had heat-damaged bottles from retailers. Only one or two I've taken back. As others mentioned, it's been years after purchase & I of course didn't have a receipt handy. These from retailers who know me because I'm a regular.

Just recently had a number of Dasche Cellars zinfandel that I'd bought at Costco. Every single bottle had tartaric crystals on the bottom of the corks when opened. Wine was otherwise fine. Most do not see an issue, but my wife has a problem with wines that exhibit tartaric crystals.

A few years back, I bought six bottles of 2012 Becker Vineyards Viognier while I was down in Texas. I opened three of them & they were bad. I was back & forth on whether it was heat-damage, or some issue regarding bottling. I contacted the winery. They expressed concern. I shipped the other three bottles to them, unopened. I never heard from them again. None of my email inquiries were returned. So I've signed them off the list, after years of touting how good & reasonable their whites were. Rat bastards.

.

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/30/2017 12:07:11 PM   
Jenise

 

Posts: 1311
Joined: 3/20/2013
From: The Pacific Northest Westest
Status: offline 		I haven't asked too many times, but I have had bottles graciously replaced by Arcadian, Talley, and Cote Rotie here in Washington regardless of point of purchase. For that they get my undying respect and loyalty.

Chateau St. Jean didn't return phone calls about a bottle of Cinq Cepage that was full of dead wasps.

Last time I asked a winery for replacement was Bevan. The wine was not purchased at the winery but was purchased 300 miles away and going back to the retailer wasn't an option. For my trouble, I got a rude, skeptical third degree from one of the partners, to which I responded with copies of the glowing reviews I'd given their wines here and elsewhere to prove I wasn't a one-off customer, and was ultimately refused. Only bottles purchased as part of their club would be replaced. I could NOT believe it. I will never buy Bevan wines again.

But this one tops them all: about ten years ago I bought four bottles of Isenhower Syrah for a wine tasting I was hosting. Insanely, the odds gotta be billions to one of this happening, but three of the four were badly corked. I bought them locally and could return them for a full refund, no problem, but concerned about THAT many bottles being indicative of a problem, I called the winery to let the owner know. His name might have been Bret. Upon hearing this news he reacted with hostility and denial ("it's not possible!") and demanded that I send the affected bottles to him for examination (I suspect that as a woman I wasn't taken seriously as someone qualified to identify this flaw.) I agreed to do that. My cost for sending the bottles: $33. What did he send back? Three more Isenhower Syrahs, useless to me now since the tasting was over, and no consideration for the shipping cost or my trouble. I still do these tastings, which have grown to needing 6-10 bottles/ea wine. Have I ever served another Isenhower? NOPE!! And do I ever pass up a chance to tell this story? Nope to that too!

Which is a long answer to your question, Annerk, but yes: obviously I do think wineries should replace flawed bottles.





< Message edited by Jenise -- 12/31/2017 1:09:23 AM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/30/2017 5:54:29 PM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

Posts: 7838
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
Status: offline 		I've rarely returned a flawed wine, but have always had them graciously replaced when it occurred, whether corked or badly cooked.

My worst episode was the Garagiste "mystery wine" that turned out to be a case of Frenchman Hills. I just wrote that off as my own gullability and poured the wine down the drain. Others were more creative.

< Message edited by ChrisinSunnyside -- 12/30/2017 6:42:45 PM >

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RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/31/2017 1:07:56 AM   
Jenise

 

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Status: offline 		Message deleted.

< Message edited by Jenise -- 12/31/2017 10:49:27 AM >

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Post #: 27
RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/31/2017 2:15:18 PM   
hankj

 

Posts: 4672
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		What did Seinfeld say? Fruit's a gamble. I subscribe to the can't win 'em all, move on philosophy of flawed wines.

If however I've bought multiples of a wine that is obviously cooked I'll return the remaining bottles.

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Post #: 28
RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 12/31/2017 2:23:18 PM   
hankj

 

Posts: 4672
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		And I could be wrong here, but I think I learned in a wine marketing course that retailers send bottles back to distributor very regularly, and it is standard practice for the distributor to refund them. So returning flawd wines to retailer is usually pleasant because in most cases they lose no skin.



< Message edited by hankj -- 12/31/2017 2:37:59 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Replacement of Flawed Wine - 1/2/2018 11:56:53 AM   
Wine Gopher

 

Posts: 818
Joined: 3/12/2012
From: MN
Status: offline 		Coincidentally I had a corked bottle on NYE. The bottle was a 2009 purchased directly from the winery (they only sell by list/allocation). I sent an email that night and received a response today requesting that I send the bottle back to them for testing to determine if they will replace the bottle. Is this standard practice?

I can only recall returning 4 corked bottles in my life (2 were returned to the local retailer for in-store credit and the other 2 were replaced directly by the winery upon being notified of the flawed wine) so I'm not highly experienced in this but requesting shipment seemed odd to me considering I'm not licensed to ship wine across state lines.

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