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Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/17/2018 8:55:50 AM

nbb1158

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Hi, Am lucky enough to have a couple of days in early November staying in Beaune. Any advice on best places to go for good, well informed wine tasting sand for good, reliable wine purchases and shipping back to the US?

I am sure this has been covered but I am unable to find the right topics or threads

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/17/2018 10:26:15 AM

DoubleD1969

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November is a great time to go.

Here's my trip report from a couple of years ago.
https://www.cellartracker.com/forum/tm.asp?m=409023

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/17/2018 11:31:25 AM

KPB

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I was last in the area a few years back, so I won't suggest hotels or restaurants (there is no lack of either!)

But I can weigh in on the wine question. First, it is actually easy to find wine stores in that area; just google "Vins Spiriteaux Beaune" (or substitute any city name you like in the area). Google will show a nice little map, reviews of the stores, etc.

Here's the issue, and it is universal in Europe: by and large, they just don't drink the super expensive wines. As a result, the hard to find wines (from a USA perspective) are often impossible to find over there. Lack of sales volume and limited numbers of vendors (sometimes just the winery itself) push prices up, not down, so you sometimes do see a rare bottle, but then the price is even higher than in New York. In fact invariably, these hard to find wines are actually much cheaper in places with high turnover and lots of competition, so New York (or anywhere in the US via wine-searcher) will kill on pricing, plus you can find the wines, plus they get shipped to your front door, or your local FedEx "hold for pickup" counter.

Visiting wineries is a fine thing to do if you plan ahead. I tend to only visit places I know because I own their wines at home, and can talk about the wines with the winemaker if I get a chance. So if you have lots of wines from such-and-such a producer, call or email and you may be able to make an appointment and meet the person who made them. But don't just turn up unannounced -- you must make appointments, unless the web site specifically says they have a tasting room and gives hours. And be on time!

When you visit, in France, it is mostly to taste and buy, not just to taste and thank them. And yes, you can definitely bring wine home with you later -- pack it well, then check it into the air cargo counter. There are even special padded shippers you can easily buy.

But because of this aspect of them exporting the expensive stuff, both the good stores and the wineries will tend to be showing off great successes that you never would have heard of (and other wines that are currently for sale), but not the super famous stuff. If you manage to visit Leroy, for example, you'll taste wines that cost 50 Euros from their negotiant operation, although they might be ok with selling you a bottle for 750 euros from her high-end winery (and you won't get to taste that one). This is just the way it works. Europeans mostly gave up on the ultra rare bottles decades ago, so the average sales counter at a winery is dealing with locals who drive over on a weekend, try wines they can afford, and buy six bottles or a case, or a few cases. It isn't like Napa where you pay a mega tasting fee and then actually get to taste the famous wines. European wineries mostly operate like "mom and pop" family businesses, and the people who visit are there to buy bottles for their cellar, and are locals, not ultra-rich tourists. So they don't orient the experience towards the rich tourists, the way Napa does.

For this reason, I actually limit my wine tasting visits in Europe (and I have been in Europe multiple times per year since 1969, basically). I don't want to end up with a carload of mid-range wines, unless we have a family event, and I'm not so keen to try and bring them back (I have horrible memories of a case of Pegau da Capo, the 2007, that fell from the luggage thing just as the wine was about to arrive in my waiting arms in Syracuse! Only 3 broke... but that was it for the thing having been a great idea!) I view both wineries and stores as places to get wine to actually drink, or maybe to leave with my sister-in-law or brother-in-law for a future visit. And I almost never even run into famous bottles there -- in Paris, maybe, but not in places like Beaune. It isn't what they drink locally.

Have fun!

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/17/2018 2:36:54 PM

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Ken I completely disagree with some (but certainly not all) of your statements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

Here's the issue, and it is universal in Europe: by and large, they just don't drink the super expensive wines. As a result, the hard to find wines (from a USA perspective) are often impossible to find over there.

I have not found that to be the case in Burgundy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB
Lack of sales volume and limited numbers of vendors (sometimes just the winery itself) push prices up, not down, so you sometimes do see a rare bottle, but then the price is even higher than in New York. In fact invariably, these hard to find wines are actually much cheaper in places with high turnover and lots of competition, so New York (or anywhere in the US via wine-searcher) will kill on pricing, plus you can find the wines, plus they get shipped to your front door, or your local FedEx "hold for pickup" counter.

Depends on how much research you do.
#Wine Check

quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB
Visiting wineries is a fine thing to do if you plan ahead. So if you have lots of wines from such-and-such a producer, call or email and you may be able to make an appointment and meet the person who made them. But don't just turn up unannounced -- you must make appointments, unless the web site specifically says they have a tasting room and gives hours. And be on time!

THIS

quote:

ORIGINAL: KPBWhen you visit, in France, it is mostly to taste and buy, not just to taste and thank them.

Many domaines in Burgundy (especially high end ones) do not even sell their own wine. They just recommend local shops.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB
And I almost never even run into famous bottles there -- in Paris, maybe, but not in places like Beaune. It isn't what they drink locally.

I have been to Beaune many times. I always drink REALLY well. You will have no trouble finding precious bottles in Burgundy. It helps to speak at least a bit of French (or to be married to someone who is nearly fluent).

_____________________________

Tous les chemins mènent à la Bourgogne!
"One not only drinks wine, one smells it, observes it, tastes it, sips it and -- one talks about it!" (in memory of drycab)

(in reply to KPB)

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/17/2018 8:07:11 PM

KPB

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Ah. Well, different wineries, probably. But this has been my experience for about 40 years now.

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/18/2018 10:50:53 AM

nbb1158

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Thanks for sending that on to me. Appreciate the two wineries/tastings names and will follow up on them. Am already well set with hotel and a couple of dinners booked.

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/18/2018 10:57:20 AM

nbb1158

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Thanks Ken, I look out for that. I did experience the difference between a US winery and the French style when we were in Chateauneuf du Pape.

By the way it's not just the French who have been priced out of the best burgundies!

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Post #: 7

RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/18/2018 6:27:14 PM

tankofwine

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I think recommendations in Burgundy should probably be tailored to your budget. Personally, I can't afford to carry back three cases of 1er cru from Vosne-Romanee, Nuits-Saint-Georges, or even Pommard. So, when my wife (speaks French, huge help) and I visited in Spring 17, I researched quality producers from some of the 'value' appellations. We stayed in Santenay, so our visits were in the Cote de Beaune and in Cote Chalonnaise. The producers we visited were all small, family run operations and the tastings were very intimate. We made appointments at specific wineries in advance of our trip, which is generally required for most places there. The ones we visited were responsive to emails and happy to set appointments, and I can pass on email addresses if you'd like. All of our tastings were really enjoyable -- great wines and lovely hospitality. For the most part, I think you are OK not speaking French, though there were one or two where my wife translated. Wines at each of these places ran $20-$30/bottle for 1er cru.

Domaine Justin Girardin (Santenay): young winemaker who just took over from his father. We found his white Bourgogne in one of our local shops here for $22 and found it to be very good value white Burgundy. But we carried a few of his 1er cru home for the same price.
Domaine Francoise et Denis Clair (Santenay)
Domaine Jean et Gilles Lafouge (Auxey-Duresses - English is a little shaky but he can muddle through it; the town is quite picturesque as well): I thought his wine was very well made. The town is Mersault-adjacent and we came away with some killer white, now wish we had bought more.
Domaine Suremain (Mercurey - a bit further south but their reds are consistently rated 90+ points and were outstanding)
Domaine Ninot (Rully - good but our least favorite of this list)

Other places we didn't visit but whose wines I like a lot: Domaine Jessiaume (Santenay), Domaine de la Pousse d'Or (Volnay). We found Santenay to be kind of our sweet spot as far as price and quality. Lots of great wines made in Mercurey -- there is a tasting room there where you can sample wines and buy bottles.

If you can find one, Mail Boxes Etc in France carries the boxes and styrofoam inserts for wine. We hit one first thing and then load up during the trip. A case of wine comes in just under the 50lbs max allowance for a checked bag.

Recommend renting a car. You can bike to some of the nearby appellations, but the northern and southern ends of the Cote d'Or will require a car, as will the Cote Chalonnaise.

Good luck!

(in reply to nbb1158)

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/20/2018 3:33:49 AM

Nostromo99

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Hire a bike and cycle along the bike path that runs from Beaune to Santenay. You'll come across a lot of basic tasting rooms in the various villages. There's also a good municipal tasting room in Chassagne Montrachet with a wide selection of wines to try. And Olivier Leflaive offers a great tasting lunch at his cellars in Puligny Montrachet.

The bike path is a great way to really get a feel for the Cote de Beaune as it takes you right among the vineyards. The gradients are pretty gentle and the distances small - from memory you could do the whole thing in less than half an hour if you didn't stop for tastings (but who would want to do that?).

Enjoy!

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/20/2018 4:41:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nostromo99

Hire a bike and cycle along the bike path that runs from Beaune to Santenay. You'll come across a lot of basic tasting rooms in the various villages. There's also a good municipal tasting room in Chassagne Montrachet with a wide selection of wines to try. And Olivier Leflaive offers a great tasting lunch at his cellars in Puligny Montrachet.

The bike path is a great way to really get a feel for the Cote de Beaune as it takes you right among the vineyards. The gradients are pretty gentle and the distances small - from memory you could do the whole thing in less than half an hour if you didn't stop for tastings (but who would want to do that?).

Enjoy!

+1 (although the climb to Volnay is not easy foir us flatlanders)
Beaune to Santenay is about 15 miles.
We rent from Laurent at Bourgogne Randonees. He will even recommend visits and draw you a map to get you to them.
https://www.bourgogne-randonnees.fr/

BIVB also has great resources for dégustations
https://www.wobook.com/WBkZ5EQ9c54K/En-route-vers-les-Bourgognes-2018.html

These resources don't get you into "Holy Grail" tastings, but there are lots of great producers.

A few others
The tour at Bouchard is cool (the tasting at the end a little lackluster though).
Marche aux Vins is tremendous fun (again the wines... but their Creme de Cassis is quite good).
Chateaux de Meursault is a nice tour and the wines are improving.
Caveau de Chassagne-Montrachet does a nice tasting.

_____________________________

Tous les chemins mènent à la Bourgogne!
"One not only drinks wine, one smells it, observes it, tastes it, sips it and -- one talks about it!" (in memory of drycab)

(in reply to Nostromo99)

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/20/2018 10:01:17 AM

nbb1158

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Thanks for a really helpful reply with good suggestions. I better make sure I finish those French lessons....

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/20/2018 1:13:10 PM

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You won't need French for my suggestions.
Laurent speaks English and the BIVB booklet is published in English and lists domaines where English is spoken.
The other tours are also available in English.

_____________________________

Tous les chemins mènent à la Bourgogne!
"One not only drinks wine, one smells it, observes it, tastes it, sips it and -- one talks about it!" (in memory of drycab)

(in reply to nbb1158)

Post #: 12

RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/21/2018 11:23:20 AM

TexasWineGeek

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+1

I travel to Burgundy often and have never found the issues discussed here. If anything the only factor sometimes is the cost is not much if any cheaper for the more well known wines. If you go to dinner at Maison Columbine the wine list is AMAZING with all levels of wine. If you go to Attlier in the center of Beaune they have many GREAT wines of Burgundy, again at all levels. Just don’t expect that you are in Beaune and it will all be cheaper.

Oh, and in regard to Burgundians not drinking the ‘special wines’...they don’t need to...what you discover in Burgundy is that there are so many very good entry level (village) wines.

Just my two cents.

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Consuming wine in moderation daily will help people to die young as late as possible. ~ Dr Philip Norrie

Too Much Wine and Not Enough Time ~

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/22/2018 7:17:51 AM

hankj

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quote:

Oh, and in regard to Burgundians not drinking the ‘special wines’...they don’t need to...what you discover in Burgundy is that there are so many very good entry level (village) wines.

I think this is right on about Europe in general - far fewer fetishizing, points + prestige chasing types of collectors in Europe, far less of the type that has "discovered" wine as an interest later in life and is on a journey of rampant exploration. People in general are either less status conscious, or more comfortable with status they've inhabitied for a very long time, and so wine is less of a display, more something that's always been around that people just live with. I think you actually see this in the USA too among people who've liveed their whole lives in established wine country.

People in Europe who are into wine collecting tend to be ultra-geeked out types very into their local products. It's a treat when you stumble upon a smaller local market and find a stairway to a basement filled with a range of local wines dating back to 40 years - this is not a response to a market demand but rather a geek's den. Finer wines also tend to be more widely available in restaurants compared to shops, in my experience anyway. On the other hand it pays to keep you eyes open. The one large chain supermarket just inside the pedestrianized core of Colmar, for instance, has all the ordinary Alsacian labels, and then another 8 or 10 grand cru type bottles, some with significant age, all at bargain prices. I'll bet if you take two minutes to stick your nose in the nicer supermarkets you pass by in Burgundy you'll eventually come up aces.

< Message edited by hankj -- 10/22/2018 7:18:20 AM >

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/24/2018 5:22:49 AM

hamishwm

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You will have a great time in Burgundy!
Small passionate winemakers making some delicious wines.
Plenty of good advice on this thread already particularly from S1.
I could add Chateau de la Cree in Santenay......the Evenstadts (Domaine Serene) bought this estate a couple of years ago. They run very interesting and comprehensive tours.
Also Chateau de Pommard is another American owned estate that is doing good things.
But the joy of Burgundy is going slightly 'off piste' and walking, cycling or driving through the beautiful small villages and meeting some charming people.
One word of help is that whenever I plan visits and tastings the timings alwasy go awry. In Bordeaux the visits are scheduled and precise.....normally an hour visit followed by a tasting of two or three wines. Whilst in Burgundy you might start off tasting three or four wines, but if the host (normally the owner or winemaker) realises that you are keen and enthusiastic....then you end up tasting all sorts of gems.....and occassionally being invited for lunch!!

A couple of restaurants worth looking for:
La Lune in Beaune (opposite Hotel Le Cep) is a very small counter style restaurant (defintely need to reserve). Adsolutely fantastic French/Japanese food with an interesting concise wine list.
Ma Cuisine in Beaune is also well known. The food is classic and standard, but the wine list is incredible......with sensible pricing for many wines that you do not generally see or can get hold of.

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/24/2018 7:04:18 AM

hankj

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quote:

I could add Chateau de la Cree in Santenay......the Evenstadts (Domaine Serene) bought this estate a couple of years ago. They run very interesting and comprehensive tours.

Now there's a gold nugget to stash away, thanks!

Domaine Serene in the Willamette is an impressive facility - either the Evenstadts have serious $$$ from pumping out some of the most expensive bottles in OR to supermarket top shelves across the West, or they're leveraging heavily to invest. Either (or both) ways, I'm sure their Burgundy property is even more charming given their good taste stateside.

Edit: did a little search on Tripadvisor and this Chateau is very highly rated, #1 "thing to do" in Santenay. If you scroll the reviews most are from Americans, many mentioning connection to Serene in one way or another (wine club etc). Everyone loves the property and the tour. The Europeans who pipe in though are put off by the price of the tasting and high price of the 3 wines you must buy to offset that 25 Euro fee. Welcome to the United States of America? :)

< Message edited by hankj -- 10/24/2018 8:24:47 AM >

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There are those who'd call us a bunch of sots but we don't see ourselves like that. We see ourselves as hobbyists. - Kevin Barry

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/24/2018 9:33:43 AM

the_lovenest

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hamishwm

Ma Cuisine in Beaune is also well known. The food is classic and standard, but the wine list is incredible......with sensible pricing for many wines that you do not generally see or can get hold of.

Cannot recommend Ma Cuisine's wine list more, it's out of this world and sometimes below ex cave pricing for stuff that's moderately hard to get.

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/29/2018 1:01:45 AM

Nostromo99

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Yeah, the food and wine list at Ma Cuisine are great, but don't go if you have small children. Unless things have changed recently, you'll either be turned away outright or hurried away at the end of your meal.

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 10/29/2018 9:52:10 AM

TexasWineGeek

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Agree with La Lune especially. Also, Maison Columbier is a must MUST. Maison Harbour in Savigny is a great visit as well.

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Consuming wine in moderation daily will help people to die young as late as possible. ~ Dr Philip Norrie

Too Much Wine and Not Enough Time ~

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 11/9/2023 3:25:27 PM

DoubleD1969

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Hey AngryPrez,
I hope you guys have a great time in Beaune! Don’t forget to update this thread and let us know who you visited and where you ate!

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 11/9/2023 8:12:13 PM

BenG

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Were they there for 5 years?

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 11/9/2023 8:21:49 PM

DoubleD1969

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They will probably wish they were there for 5 years!

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 11/10/2023 6:16:59 AM

AngryPrez

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Will do - we leave tomorrow for France.

Itinerary in Beaune -

Tues Nov 14 - arrive in Beaune from Paris; Hotel Les Remperts; walking tour with guide Alexia Papin; tasting at Joseph Drouhin; dinner at La Superb
Wed Nov 15 - Tours with Bill Nanson (Burgundy Report) - Domain Seguin-Manuel; Domain Bart; Domain Jerome Galeyrand; dinner Le Bistro des Coccottes
Thur Nov 16 - Tours with Bill Nanson - Domain Jean Tardy; tasting lunch at Domain Trapet; Roi Chambertin trade tasting of 2022 vintage; La Cérémonie des Majors du Tastevinage 2023 at Clos de Vougeot; probably skipping dinner that night. :)
Fri Nov 17 - Tours with Bill Nanson - Domaine Mark Haisma; Domaine Serafin; lunch le Bistrot Lucien; Domain Laurent Ponsot; dinner at Caveau de Arches
Saturday - market day; Hospice de Beaune 150th Festival of Great Burgundy Wines; dinner Ma Cuisine
Sunday - open, dinner at La Table du Square
Monday depart for Sarlat le Caneda in the Dordogne

We were fortunate to schedule the tours with Bill during the week of the Hospice de Beaune auction, so there are some special events on the list. It will be a busy time in Beaune - booked our hotel back in August, and even then there weren't that many rooms available.

Bill has been great to work with throughout the planning process, with recommendations for restaurants etc as well.

We start with two days in Paris to acclimate, then Beaune, followed by a few days in the Dordogne (looking forward to the cave paintings in Lascaux!), then Bordeaux, and finishing with a few days back in Paris.

Happy to share my Google sheets planning spreadsheet if anyone is interested.

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RE: Visit to Beaune, Burgundy - 11/10/2023 7:44:48 AM

DoubleD1969

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That sounds fantastic! I enjoyed the market day in Beaune. Small but full of great stuff - Perigord truffles, all kinds of cheeses, chanterelles, roast chicken.

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Post #: 24