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Recent CdP Vintages - 4/19/2019 9:23:12 AM

the_lovenest

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With all the hype surrounding the 2016 vintage in Chateauneuf du Pape, as well as lots of stories surfacing recently about 2007 being a horrible miscalculation on the part of reviewers, should we have a chat about impressions of CdP vintages since the turn of the century?
There's been some '09s on offer lately from some reliable names that we've been thinking about pulling the trigger on, but we don't have tons of experience with the vintage. I know it's supposed to be good, but somewhat overshadowed by 2010, and the one wine we've had from the vintage showed quite well.
We've had a couple bottles of the '05 Mas de Boislauzon Cuvee du Quet in the past few years, I thought it showed brilliantly in 2015 but less so in 2018.
We had a bottle of the '12 Charvin with some of the Seattle tasting group folks a couple weeks ago and I think the consensus was that there was definitely promising stuff in the bottle but that at least another 3-5 years are necessary for it to begin showing its best.
Did anyone go deep on '16s?

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/19/2019 10:50:19 AM

khmark7

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Haven't seen many 2016 CdP in the stores yet, and so thus far i've picked up a few CdR's, but nothing in mass quantity. Have been enjoying the 2014 & 2015 CdR's i've been drinking of late though.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/19/2019 11:29:46 AM

the_lovenest

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quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

Haven't seen many 2016 CdP in the stores yet, and so thus far i've picked up a few CdR's, but nothing in mass quantity. Have been enjoying the 2014 & 2015 CdR's i've been drinking of late though.

We've seen a heavy depletion in cellar defenders recently, any recommendations for CdRs you've particularly enjoyed lately?

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/19/2019 11:43:03 AM

Eddie

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I have so far acquired 8 bottles of assorted 2016 CdP from Tour Saint-Michel. That wouldn't be "deep" for most people, but it's deep for me, as I usually don't have more than 3 or 4 CdP from any given vintage.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/19/2019 12:28:28 PM

the_lovenest

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We've got half a case of '16 CdP in our cellar so far with plans to get another six or so bottles socked away before we call it good, which is pretty "deep" for us. We went heavier on 2015 Rhone generally (about 3 cases worth), a third of which is CdP as well. We liked what we tasted of the '15s when we were there in August 2017 so we felt like we were looking before we leaped. We felt that the '15 Clos des Papes was especially good.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/19/2019 1:35:19 PM

WineGuyCO

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Lovenest....Thanks for the thread. I too am looking at some 2009’s and 2010’s. I just bought 6 bottles of 2012 Clos Des Pape. Forgot to include 2012 in the list of good vintages.

I see some 2016’s for sale and a few 2015’s. I may change my mind and just buy a few. I’m gong to look this weekend. Anybody try the 2009’s yet? I’m guessing for the same or similar prices just go with 2010.

Going back a little further 2003, 2004, 2005 & 2006 also looked to be good years but have no experience with them as I have been out of the CdP market for a while. I most likely will not go back that far. 2013 & 2014 are even worse than 2011 but if prices are low enough might be worth it as DD’s.

My decision is to focus on 2009, 2010 & 2012 which have a current drinking window or grab some 2015 & 2016’s that can’t be drank for 5-7 years. Long time to wait at this point.

Rick

< Message edited by WineGuyDelMar -- 4/19/2019 1:36:15 PM >

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/19/2019 2:34:07 PM

KPB

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In the current market I would probably focus on 2005 and 2009, personally, although I happen to love some 2010 reds (despite the tendency of that vintage to push the limits on ripeness).

The 2005 CnDP are fully mature now and some have really opened up and become stunners (Pegau, Marcoux, Janasse VV). But a few wines remain stubbornly tannic and probably won't improve. I always found this vintage puzzling -- no idea what made the tannins so fierce, and it was almost universal. I would jump to buy these if you run into good deals, but check recent TNs as a way to notice "issues". Mine are under KPB.

2006 was a minor vintage and just fine, but not thrilling. 2007 is definitely very ripe, rich, and for my palate, often unbalanced. I bought far too many of the 2007 wines and wish I had tried more of them before jumping in. On the other hand at the very top, wines like Pegau da Capo, you had actual 100pt wines in 2007 -- not a score I often hand out! 2007 won't be a source of bargains because the vintage was scored very high by WA.

2008 was ok, but again, nothing amazing.

I've been really happy with the 2009 vintage -- I bought heavily in that vintage and they have really been lovely wines. I recommend these and they are drinking well. A bit more classical (== lighter, more balanced, more interesting noses), just maturing now. Great pricing too.

2010 is a complicated vintage (and those won't be cheap in any case). My broad sense is that the the vintage a bit on the overripe and heavy side. As they mature some of the less well-made wines are starting to seem a bit stewed (like Clos St. Jean, Usseglio Mon Aueil, Clos des Papes); you won't find TNs from me on those because I've tasted them and kind of rejected them as not my style.

Yet there are some GREAT 2010 reds. As usual, Pegau delivered a great wine call it a triple if 2007 was a home run). Marcoux was very strong in this vintage, and Beaucastel. On the other hand, some of my normal favorites like Charvin seem to have found it hard to get balance in 2010 and seems a bit awkward to me.

You don't often see 2011 in the market, it wasn't viewed as much of a vintage. I've only purchased a few bottles from 2011, and wouldn't say that I've formed a particularly positive impression. In fact most of what I bought was from the north, not CnDP.

I don't have a lot of TNs from 2012 although we did visit the area a few times when these were being released and I've certainly drunk a fair number and bought 2 cases.

I only have rather negative TNs from 2013, even from producers I often like. To avoid.

In 2014 I mostly purchased northern Rhone reds. 2015 was sensational in the north, but prices are very high.

As for the south, I've certainly consumed a few 2014 and 2015 reds and tasted a few 2016s. The usual suspects (for me: Pegau, Charvin, Marcoux, Beaucastel, Janasse VV) are all wines I would be fine with owning, if I wanted more wine in my cellar right this second. Don't have strong impressions on any of them yet and none has screamed "buy me!" the way the top 2010 wines did on release. And none has seemed infinitely seductive and appealing instantly, like that 2009 Pegau, either.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/19/2019 2:53:02 PM

the_lovenest

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Great notes KPB, thanks for the info.

When we were in CdP we found the '14 Telegraphe to be quite charming in a sort of immediate sense; it wasn't hailed as the best vintage so we've since quite cheaply scooped up some of them for some near-term enjoyment.

We also bought mostly from the North in '14 but when we were there the '15 vintage was juuuuuuuuuuuuuuust coming out so the hype hadn't hit yet and we were able to get some very good deals ex cellar. Many wines that we thought were life-changing and bought plenty of ex cellar we could never justify given their prices in the states. Strangely Lauren found a couple of underpriced '15 Allemands locally so we were able to actually justify buying them when just a week before we figured it would be too painful. I guess it is better to be lucky than good in many cases.

We have a '13 from Charvin, curious how that one is going to turn out.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/19/2019 3:00:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: the_lovenest

We have a '13 from Charvin, curious how that one is going to turn out.

Beautiful.
We drank it with Laurent about a year ago.

Patience!

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/19/2019 3:54:54 PM

WineGuyCO

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For those looking to backfill older vintages of CdP the prices are really high and so you have to REALLY love CdP. The 2009 Pegau Laurence I’m looking at is over $100. Not sure I love it that much. For comparison I just bought some 2012 Syrah’s from Bedrock and Donelan for $44.99 from K&L. Granted it’s different but for 2X price it’s a decision.

Rick

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/19/2019 9:08:57 PM

peeks13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

Haven't seen many 2016 CdP in the stores yet, and so thus far i've picked up a few CdR's, but nothing in mass quantity. Have been enjoying the 2014 & 2015 CdR's i've been drinking of late though.

Haven't had great luck with CdP lately. The ones on deep sale are so for a reason and the better names are tough to pay full freight for and are often over-hyped and over-priced.

I've switched to quality names in Lirac, Vacqueyras and Gigondas (and of course CdR) to get my Southern Rhone fix. Anyone else doing this?

< Message edited by peeks13 -- 4/19/2019 9:15:20 PM >

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/20/2019 3:58:48 AM

khmark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peeks13

quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

Haven't seen many 2016 CdP in the stores yet, and so thus far i've picked up a few CdR's, but nothing in mass quantity. Have been enjoying the 2014 & 2015 CdR's i've been drinking of late though.

Haven't had great luck with CdP lately. The ones on deep sale are so for a reason and the better names are tough to pay full freight for and are often over-hyped and over-priced.

I've switched to quality names in Lirac, Vacqueyras and Gigondas (and of course CdR) to get my Southern Rhone fix. Anyone else doing this?

Yes, although there are a few CdP producers i purchase most years. Finding that i enjoy CdR & Gigondas just as much as CdP only without the 10 yr wait.

To answer the earlier question, i've been slowly drinking my 2012, 2014 & 2015 CdR and have yet to try any of my 2016.

2009 southern Rhone was a bit ripe for my taste. Better than 2007, but not my favorite. 2010 seems good, and 2011 & 2012 OK.

If i was to backfill at auction i would look at 2005 & 2006 - both amazing vintages IMO.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/20/2019 1:34:30 PM

jmcmchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peeks13

quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

Haven't seen many 2016 CdP in the stores yet, and so thus far i've picked up a few CdR's, but nothing in mass quantity. Have been enjoying the 2014 & 2015 CdR's i've been drinking of late though.

Haven't had great luck with CdP lately. The ones on deep sale are so for a reason and the better names are tough to pay full freight for and are often over-hyped and over-priced.

I've switched to quality names in Lirac, Vacqueyras and Gigondas (and of course CdR) to get my Southern Rhone fix. Anyone else doing this?

Yep

Interesting to compare the Gigondas/Vacqueras offerings in the CdP tasting rooms with the equivalent basic CdP. As often as not, I prefer the less prestigious village and much prefer the ten Euro or so saving in the comparison
This contrast has become more noticeable as growers have moved to a market segmentation within their CdP ranges to offer elite labels. These are made possible by reserving most of the premium juice for the luvury cuvees, hence reducing the amount of premium juice in the basic blend

Remember, CdP was the first AOC, specifically created to allow the local vignerons to have a brand which allowed higher prices, so it is fair to expect that you will pay more for CdP when looking at wines of similar absolute quality (note, I am NOT arguing that a basic Gigondas is as "good" as a premium CdP)

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/20/2019 3:31:18 PM

dbg

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Ken did a great job summarizing recent vintages. I agree on almost all counts, though I’ve found the 2010s to be a bit fresher, crisper, and more acidic/less overtly ripe than the 2009s, where he found the 2010s riper. I like them both.

But my experience is limited as I've cut way back on the number of CduP producers I drink. I’ve become way less tolerant of sweet ripe Grenache since ODing on it with the 2007s. I sold off most of my Janasse, Usseglio, etc. I kept the Beaucastel, VT, Charvin, and Pegau and have shifted my Rhone purchases more towards Cote Rotie.

Cotes du Rhônes have been my go-to cellar defenders for years, but I’ve gotten to the point where I need to start drinking the good stuff more regularly. Favorites were Charvin Le Poutet, Grand Veneur Champauvins, Clos du Caillou Bouquet des Garrigues, Saint Cosme Deux Albion, and a Cairanne, Dom des Coteaux des Travers.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/21/2019 8:46:44 AM

Sourdough

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Opened a 2016 Charvin last night. 4 hour slow ox and then decanted. Lighter than many CdPs butbeautifully complex and delicious. Drinking beautifully now but will get better. Deserves its high scores IMO.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/21/2019 9:30:29 AM

KPB

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@dgb and I have similar taste!

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/21/2019 9:46:49 AM

WineGuyCO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

@dgb and I have similar taste!

Hi Ken....it seems you aren’t a fan of Clos Des Pape. I just bought a case of 2012 and this is my only CdP in my cellar. I don’t know the different styles of CdP like I do Bordeaux, Pinot, Cab or Syrah because I haven’t bought much of it for years. Maybe you could comment on its longevity?

Paul Avril compared 2012 to 2005, 2007 & 2010. Parker says it will go to 2032. Are they both wrong? I am trying a bottle tonight for Easter so will get an idea. I hate letting my wines (especially expensive ones) go past their Prime. I thought most CdP producers in recent vintages have gone back to the older style of CdP and away from the newer fruit bomb CdP. Thanks for your thoughts. I read an older CdP thread here and you are quite knowledgeable on this wine. I love reading your posts.

Rick

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/21/2019 12:54:39 PM

KPB

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It wouldn’t be right for me to guess on that wine. First, I have been avoiding Clos des Papes lately, after some experiences convinced me that my palate doesn’t match with many who love that producer. And second, I have never tried their 2012!

From my own cellar, Clos des Papes wines often seem fantastic (but too young, and with incredible promise) on release, and in fact are great to drink very young. Your question gets at the core thing, of course: Yes, but most CDP reds peak after 8 years, shouldn’t you wait? But that is exactly the issue I have had! I have learned that for me, I never should wait! But only for this producer and a few others. Also, the issue of dubious aging is more evident in very ripe vintages for those wines, and often much less of a problem in leaner less ripe vintages, like 2001 or 2005.

So, should you wait? You might want to use a try these bottles every year or two and make your decisions as you drink them... perfect situation for Coravin, so you only will use one bottle every five or eight years for this research....

< Message edited by KPB -- 4/21/2019 1:00:28 PM >

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/21/2019 4:47:59 PM

KPB

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PS: The pattern I've experienced with Clos des Papes is that the wine is often outstanding on release, with powerful aromatics and a chewy mouthfeel and a kind of ripe sweetness offset by oaky tannins and tobacco/vanilla.

So you think wow, this is a wine for the ages!

But then in my own experience, Clos des Papes is far too prone to oxidization in the bottle -- it can start to seem stewed (like a plum compote), and that racy acidity vanishes so that it can get hot (high alcohol, like a cocktail) and yet flabby, and the oaky character that was so appealing on release can seem jarring. Worse, in extremely hot vintages like 1998 and 2003, Clos des Papes was prone to showing aromas of iodine (seaweed), which appeared after just a few years and was very off-putting to me.

Absolutely no idea how their 2012 tastes now, or how it will evolve, but as I said, if I myself were to buy one I would open it that same night. If I liked it, I might repeat now and then. But I view Clos des Papes that way: a wine to be treated with great care.

In a very cold cellar (like 52F) it might do better. My cellar is between 57 and 60.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/21/2019 4:56:05 PM

WineGuyCO

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Thank you for your comments. I am trying one tonight. Another thing I have learned is that some people taste things others don’t. I think you have a sophisticated palate that can discern things others can’t. Cab Franc and Grenache when young have a very distinc green, stemmy taste to me. When I have pointed this out to others they didn’t taste this.

It’s too late since I already bought an entire case. I am hoping that it will be as good as I think. I buy a LOT of wine without ever tasting it and don’t recall one that I hated. Hoping for the best here.

Rick

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/21/2019 6:30:50 PM

KPB

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I’ve owned cases of Clos des Papes. I simply drank them in the first few years....

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/21/2019 7:20:32 PM

WineGuyCO

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Just drank a bottle of 2012. First impressions is that it’s too young still. Nice extraction, nose is for sure European but by no means is the wine past it’s prime. Dark color, medium mouth feel, long finish and quite extracted. Grenache is forward. Mourvèdre on the nose but Grenache dominates the taste. Tannins medium to light. Acidity I’m not sure about. I think the wine will go a while. Several more years for sure. I have enough to drink every few months. Dark color and Euro nose. I like it.

Rick

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/22/2019 4:16:11 PM

dbg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

@dgb and I have similar taste!

Having read a bunch of your notes over the years, I think this is true!

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/23/2019 2:10:06 PM

the_lovenest

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Ken, great info on Clos des Papes. A clarifying question though: do you notice that they do any near-term shutting down or is their trajectory more linear? Lauren and I loved the '15 Papes when we tried them at the winery in late 2017 and have bought a few, might they be awkward now? I know with Burgundy and Mosel Riesling you kind of have to get at it right away or forget about them for 10+ years, if you think CDPapes tend to $#!t the bed sooner than you'd like, is just any old time "the right time"? Those powerful aromatics and nice acidity were the selling points for us.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/30/2019 8:39:24 AM

charleshoward

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I like my CdPs at about the 7-8 year mark and I do not have the $$$ to buy the big boys. I do LOVE CdP and am an opportunistic buyer of the end of bins. I just drank my last 2007, Tinel. It and the other 2007s I had were enjoyable. Never found fault with Domaine de la Solitude, Senechaux and even Caves Saint-Pierre (Trader Joe's CdP) held up well.

I've bought some 2016, Donjon and Jean Royer, and will continue to buy on sales and end of bins.

< Message edited by charleshoward -- 4/30/2019 8:40:35 AM >

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/30/2019 9:44:24 AM

thesternowl

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Lots of great commentary and experience in this thread. I will echo what others have said that Clos des Papes has a tendency to be a bit overbearing when the vintage provides super ripe fruit and, at least to me, loses its balance. However, in cooler years, Clos des Papes can be magnificent!

FWIW, here's my 0.02 having, what I would consider, helpful experience with CdP and, frankly, wines from the Southern Rhone over the last 10 years to include Gigondas, Vacqueyras, and Rasteau. The vintages that have really caught my attention are 2010 and 2016. I went deep on 2010 but now have less than a handful remaining in my cellar. I have found the 2010's to be much more balanced than 2003, 2005, 2007, 2009 and...as much as it pains me to say it 2015. While there are exceptions, those years were too overblown for my taste and so my buying was super specific to particular producers only. Perhaps it's too soon to pass judgement on the 2015's but I am concerned about longevity from my early impressions. I hope I'm wrong. However, a wide range of producers made really delicious wine in 2010 and 2016 with the latter being particularly exciting to me. Those wines had more than enough structure to prop up the fruit and I think 2017 also seems very promising based off my initial impressions.

One more thing: the one vintage that hasn't received a lot of chatter that I have really enjoyed for different reasons is the 2014 vintage. The great producers, in my experience, knocked 2014 out of the park with beautiful, elegant wines that delivered what I would best describe as a more "Burgundian" version of CdP. Pegau, Clos Des Papes, Marcoux, Charvin and Sabon were all fabulous and drinking exceptionally right now.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/30/2019 10:38:21 AM

KPB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: the_lovenest

Ken, great info on Clos des Papes. A clarifying question though: do you notice that they do any near-term shutting down or is their trajectory more linear?

Honestly, in a very ripe year like 1998, 2003 or 2007, I would say that Clos des Papes has repeatedly shown a profile that starts out spectacular and then is more or less a linear fall off a cliff to being muddled and undrinkable. But again, it depends a lot on your cellar. My impression is that a very cold cellar (like 50F) would help, and that the issue is oxidation.

Basically, I think in very ripe years Avril often can't avoid bringing in overripe fruit and that parts of his holdings suffer drought stress too (at least in some vintages, like the ones mentioned). You can discard that fruit, but his style seems to be to select more carefully but to keep a lot of it. He then perhaps acidifies to perk up the wine, and he uses very aggressive new oak, which also can cloak the plummy flavors in a sort of crème caramel wrapper. But then as the wine ages in the bottle, oxygen will be entering slowly, and this will change that delicate ratio of fruit/tannins/acidity/alcohol (for him, these wines are also very high-proof). With age, oak tannins fall off, fruit evolves, and with added acidity, it isn't clear that the acids age in "unison" with the fruit and tannins. So for my palate, as this plays out, for those 3 vintages, you could sort of watch the release-wine (almost like a cocktail) unwind: the stewed dimension of the fruit reappears, the green aspects of the pips and stems and even the skins becomes more evident (hence one finds seaweed, iodine, other scorched-green aromas), and the wine seems hot and disjointed.

But would that be an issue for 2015? I have no idea at all! As I said, I gave up on Clos des Papes, around 2010.

< Message edited by KPB -- 4/30/2019 10:40:09 AM >

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/30/2019 11:37:02 AM

Paul852

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Thanks for lots of really useful insights here.

While we're on the subject, any thoughts on the whites?

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/30/2019 11:53:10 AM

KPB

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In fact I think they make a great white wine! But I always drink those young. Quite a good price and it goes really well with fish that has a sauce with butter or oil in it -- something about the blend of grapes works well, whereas Chardonnay can seem very flabby with those kinds of sauces.

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RE: Recent CdP Vintages - 4/30/2019 3:46:34 PM

grizzlymarmot

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Every year we buy my father a half case of aged CdP. This year we picked up a 95 Beaucastel. It was the essence of aging perfection. Tons of lighter fruit exploding out the bottle and a pleasant touch of tobacco. So are any of the 2000’s going to attain this within the next decade? As far as the prices go - the 20 y.o. wines cost as much as the 10 year old ones - so why not go for those? As for the 2016’s , Asimov in the NYT made a point for early consumption.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/24/dining/drinks/wine-review-chateauneuf-du-pape-2016.html

(in reply to the_lovenest)

Post #: 30