A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs

A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - what can that be

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

All Forums >> [Cellar Talk] >> General Discussion >> A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - what can that be

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - what ca... - 11/30/2022 12:53:26 PM

Echinosum

Posts: 604
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline

Anyone come across this before - a taint that is OK when you open the bottle, but the bottle becomes undrinkable after a couple of days open? This is a 2018 malbec from the central Loire, which due to the uniquely hot conditions in the Loire that year has come out as 15% alcohol.

So I had no trouble at all with the first carton of 6 bottles. There was no hint of any problem with those. It's not a special wine, a bit clumsy due to the high alcohol, but there is plenty of fruit and acid to make it an unsophisticated monster malbec you'd probably think was Argentinean.

But the next carton of 6 bottles, and a little bit older, now 4 yrs, so far (3 bottles) they have all had this taint. What is odd is how it gets considerably worse as the wine is open, on a scale of days. The wine is kept in the fridge between drinking times.

When you first open it, there's a quite obvious bayleaf flavour, which many other tasters of this wine have commented one. But it is acceptable and balanced, quite a common wine flavour, and adds something to the wine. Not uncommon at all. But as the wine is aired, it grows and grows, at least with these bottles, until it becomes so unacceptable the wine is undrinkable. The first bottle, it was day 3 when it became so objectionable. The second bottle was finished off on day 2, not undrinkable, but it was becoming a problem. The third bottle I have open in front of me, it has become really utterly objectionable on day 2.

It does remind me a bit of a horribly corked bottle I had a few months ago. But it's not really musty, it's more acrid.

Looking down lists of wine faults, one that has flavour aspects that most closely match this is the problem caused by excessive quantities of harlequin (Asian) ladybirds (lady beetles) in the harvest. Squashed insect is, of course, common in wine grapes. But unlike other ladybirds, this one has a very much more powerful nasty taste. You do get ladybird plagues in superhot droughts, and a superhot drought is what they had in the Loire in 2018. And the harlequin ladybird has substantially replaced native ladybirds in areas like northern France.

But the distinctive factor is that it is an acceptable, balanced flavour when you open the bottle, but grows and grows as the bottle is open, on a timescale of days, until it becomes completely unacceptable.

Anyone know what this is, or experienced it themselves?

Post #: 1

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 11/30/2022 1:26:22 PM

hankj

Posts: 4672
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

Sounds like the fairly common "mousy" flaw to me. Loire winemakers have a light hand with the SO2, and as the SO2 in the wine reduces over time the mousy rises up.

Maybe not right, hard to say w/o smelling the wine. I'll bet though it's SO2 related - SO2 drops slowly in unopened wine, and quickly in opened wine. And as I noted Loire winemakers tend toward SO2 shy.

_____________________________

There are those who'd call us a bunch of sots but we don't see ourselves like that. We see ourselves as hobbyists. - Kevin Barry

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 2

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 11/30/2022 3:12:51 PM

KPB

Posts: 4661
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline

Interesting! Exactly which wine, and vintage?

But my guess is that the wine is a blend of rather sweet, fruity juice with much sterner stuff, and not necessarily the same varietal, and that the bay leaf aroma is a form of pyrazines (sometimes people talk about green pepper, or menthol, or eucalyptus). Blends are permitted in the Loire. So perhaps the wine itself is a mix of Malbec with Cabernet Franc, or Tannat, etc.

As it sits open on the counter, even if recorked, the fruit oxidizes and is less overt, and the tannic backdrop emerges as the main story. The fruit itself might become muted or it could even start to pick up a stewed character, like plum compote. Anyhow, in this theory any pyrazines (those vegetal aromas and flavors) can step into the foreground. They certainly could become more prominent.

Solution? Finish the bottles on day one! Or use a preservation system, like a Coravin.

< Message edited by KPB -- 11/30/2022 3:13:27 PM >

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to hankj)

Post #: 3

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 11/30/2022 5:12:37 PM

Ibetian

Posts: 3578
Joined: 7/15/2007
From: Sarasota, FL and the Berkshires
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

Interesting! Exactly which wine, and vintage?

But my guess is that the wine is a blend of rather sweet, fruity juice with much sterner stuff, and not necessarily the same varietal, and that the bay leaf aroma is a form of pyrazines (sometimes people talk about green pepper, or menthol, or eucalyptus). Blends are permitted in the Loire. So perhaps the wine itself is a mix of Malbec with Cabernet Franc, or Tannat, etc.

As it sits open on the counter, even if recorked, the fruit oxidizes and is less overt, and the tannic backdrop emerges as the main story. The fruit itself might become muted or it could even start to pick up a stewed character, like plum compote. Anyhow, in this theory any pyrazines (those vegetal aromas and flavors) can step into the foreground. They certainly could become more prominent.

Solution? Finish the bottles on day one! Or use a preservation system, like a Coravin.

+1

_____________________________

“I was a glutton at the banquet and spilt the finest wine,” Mick Jagger, Wandering Spirit

(in reply to KPB)

Post #: 4

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 12/1/2022 1:51:22 AM

Echinosum

Posts: 604
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline

The wine is Cent Visages 2018 from Domaine Mérieau, which is at Montrichard-Val-de-Cher about 25km E of Tours, near Chenonceaux. It says it is 100% old vines malbec (côt) from a specific vineyard. But there are inconsistencies in the information. The information on the web-link doesn't exactly match the info on the back label pictured here. For example, it says the vineyard is 2.5ha, but the label on the wine says it is 4ha. I've had some other information conflicts on other vintages - if you look at some tasting notes on the 2020 for example, a taster from Belgium seems to have a lower alcohol version than me. It's a wine I have bought regularly from the 2016 onwards. It is only from 2018 that it has become this monster high alcohol wine, the 2017 and 2016 were quite different.

Reading some articles on mousy fault, such Wine Anorak's, it does seem to be the fault that comes and goes like I've experienced. The way it says, drink it up quick on opening before it gets bad, seems to be exactly what I'm suffering. And it is some pyrazines that cause the issue. The flavours I'm getting are very pyrazine. Some other details mentioned about the fault don't quite match my experience - I can smell it quite clearly in the glass, it doesn't wait till it's in my mouth, though thinking about it, though it does get really bad after being in your mouth. But it does make sense that a taint that is strongly pH-dependent in a narrow range can appear as the wine ages or airs.

There's nothing on the web-site that mentions sulfur handling. The label clearly says contains sulfites. But the wine-making notes do suggest an artisanal approach which might be consistent with gentle sulfur usage.

Coincidentally, the Domaine makes a pinot noir called Souris et Boa.

The pH dependency makes me wonder if I can add a few drops of vinegar to the wine to drop the pH and reduce the nasty taste. Well, that's an experiment I can carry out, given I don't want to drink the wine in the bottom of the bottle in its current state. Though reading the French language wiki article on wine faults, under "goût de souris", there is a suggestion absent in the English article, that mousiness can appear through redox reactions. Indeed some rather different chemistry is mentioned on that page that is absent on the English language page, but as a range of options of what might be happening. Redox reactions are even more consistent with a fault that grows with time in bottle, and with air once open. I don't think it would be made to go away by adding a bit more acid if that is what's involved. But maybe what we are talking about here is a spectrum of related issues rather than a single well-defined issue. That would account for variations in the experience.

(in reply to Ibetian)

Post #: 5

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 12/1/2022 5:07:09 AM

KPB

Posts: 4661
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline

I couldn’t access that link, but this one worked, and it really describes your tasting! Looks like a situation for taking to the winery, or the importer. I bet they would exchange the case for a different vintage.

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 6

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 12/1/2022 10:03:40 AM

hankj

Posts: 4672
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

OP I appreciate the detail with which you are parsing this issue. Mousiness (if that's it, or part of it) is certainly a weird chemical process.

Your approach is almost like medical pathology! Even down to the closing caveat that wine is complicated and organic, and you usually can't perfectly overlay the textbook case on the complex reality.

So little silver lining maybe, it's fun to read you figuring it out :)

_____________________________

There are those who'd call us a bunch of sots but we don't see ourselves like that. We see ourselves as hobbyists. - Kevin Barry

(in reply to KPB)

Post #: 7

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 12/1/2022 3:01:08 PM

Echinosum

Posts: 604
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline

So I have been experimenting adding small quantities of acid - wine vinegar, citric acid - to my glass of wine. And the way it considerably reduces the taint confirms this is definitely has to be mousy taint I have. I still pick a little more of the mousy taint on the back of my tongue, after the wine has been swallowed, a feature which is well described in the notes I referred to.

The acid worked very quickly. Large immediate effect, and some small further increase in effect over 30-60 seconds maybe. So not the best glass of wine any more with small quantities of vinegar and citric acid in. But at least I can drink it and I don't have to chuck it down the sink. Acetic and citric are not really the acids you want to add to your wine. But they are culinary acids commonly found in my kitchen, and will mix easily. I also have some tartaric, which I would have preferred, but it is hard to dissolve. And it has a tendency to precipitate out of wine with age.

I'll be sending a note to my supplier.

(in reply to hankj)

Post #: 8

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 12/1/2022 3:02:51 PM

KPB

Posts: 4661
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline

I found the discussion (on the page I linked to) about why the taste intensifies in the mouth or after a day or two particularly interesting.

< Message edited by KPB -- 12/1/2022 3:03:22 PM >

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 9

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 12/2/2022 1:17:25 AM

Echinosum

Posts: 604
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
The acid worked very quickly. Large immediate effect, and some small further increase in effect over 30-60 seconds maybe. So not the best glass of wine any more with small quantities of vinegar and citric acid in. But at least I can drink it and I don't have to chuck it down the sink.

Unfortunately the taint did then grow back in the glass over the next hour...

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 10

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 12/8/2022 1:35:37 PM

grafstrb

Posts: 8837
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: LAla land
Status: offline

Agree with the "Mousy" hypothesis.

_____________________________

Terroir is not a flavor.

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 11

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 12/9/2022 6:52:35 AM

forceberry

Posts: 907
Joined: 8/4/2017
From: Finland
Status: offline

Mousiness and TCA are basically the only faults that get noticeably worse with air. As several others before me have pointed out, this definitely sounds like mousiness - although I would normally describe mousiness with more nutty / grainy terms like Cheerios, sesame seeds, rancid nuts of Weetabix.

Brett, VA, pyrazines (including ladybeetle pyrazines) and geosmin do not normally worsen or get better with air - they just stay there. They might change in character as the wine opens up and the fruit aromatics change the way one perceives these aromas, but the aroma intensity doesn't normally change much or at all, no matter how long the wine is kept open.

_____________________________

Check my blog and join me in my search for rare and unknown grape varieties and wine styles!
My CT profile

(in reply to grafstrb)

Post #: 12

RE: A wine taint that gets worse as the wine airs - wha... - 12/9/2022 7:31:10 AM

Echinosum

Posts: 604
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: forceberry

Mousiness and TCA are basically the only faults that get noticeably worse with air. As several others before me have pointed out, this definitely sounds like mousiness - although I would normally describe mousiness with more nutty / grainy terms like Cheerios, sesame seeds, rancid nuts of Weetabix.

Brett, VA, pyrazines (including ladybeetle pyrazines) and geosmin do not normally worsen or get better with air - they just stay there. They might change in character as the wine opens up and the fruit aromatics change the way one perceives these aromas, but the aroma intensity doesn't normally change much or at all, no matter how long the wine is kept open.

Thanks for your exceedingly well-informed comments as ever.

The link that KPB gave, Aroma Dictionary, mentions that sometimes acrolein, alias propenal, is also being produced by the same processes that give rise to the pyrazines that are mainly noted for mousiness. The description it gives there of the effects of acrolein - intense metallic bitterness - are just what I am experiencing, and a large part of why the wine is so utterly undrinkable. So that seemed further consistency.

(in reply to forceberry)

Post #: 13