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Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/3/2023 4:56:08 PM

Eduardo787

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The $50 Napa cab offers terrible value. I've been opening a few wines in the range of 50-70 and I am finding very mediocre wines for the price. While not bad at all, the value they offer is comparable with wines half that price all around the world. Yesterday I opened a Far Niente Post and Beam cab that has a price of $60 or so can you believe it had a grainy cork instead of a natural one ? This is not acceptable for a wine that price and to be frank the wine was absolutely boring. Then , a few days ago I received an offer for the new wine of Caymus that is no longer from Napa, it just says " California" and they are asking $60 for it ! 3 years ago that was the price of their Napa bottleing.

I know I dont gain anything complaining, but since more than a year ago I stopped buying Napa and I am not buying my allocations of wines that I truly love because I dont want to support greed. Caymus SS at $230 ??? I think some of us do not understand that we are close to be in a position that the entry point for a great Napa cab is going to be $400. Of course many things can be said, but a grainy cork for a $60 wine is something that says to me as a consumer " We will give you the least we can give you for the most money you can give us " ....sorry I am pissed. I think I need to rediscover Australian cabs and shiraz and find more Argentinian malbecs to age.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/3/2023 5:27:40 PM

KPB

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Personally, I really like the Ingrid bottles offered by DB Wines (same guy who sells the Misc wines, although you and I buy directly from Grant Long). These are made by Chris Pratt, but even though the name is the same, not the famous actor. The white wines are sub $50, and the Cabernet is $70, hence above your limit. But I think it is really good.

I also like the Tynan Enclume de Velours, a red blend, $40. “Anvil of velvet”, like what iron workers use but of course, velvet is not what those are normally made from…

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/3/2023 6:03:34 PM

WineGuyCO

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Eduardo..It’s been like this for a while now. I get emails from JJ Buckley now saying “Hard to find Sub $100 CA Cab”. I just laugh and delete the email because usually it’s some unknown Producer or just not that good for the price. The $50-$0 Grocery Stores CA Cabsare one dimensional plonk and not worth buying or drinking. IMO.

Bordeaux (especially St Emilion) offers the best bang for your buck by far. I’m talking Wines in the $45-$65 range. Go buy some 2015 Bellefont Belcier for $55 from Hi Times. It’s incredible. 93 points now and higher in a year or two. Spain & Italy have many options in this price range too.

CA Cabs are just 6% of my cellar and going much lower. As I drink them down I don’t expect to replace them with more CA Cabs. I’ve been buying a Spanish Toro gem, Ordoñez Vatan for $35. Lopez de Heredia Bosconia & Tondonia are super cheap for the quality. Check out Left Bank names like Latour Martillac, Marquis D’Alesme, Malartic Lagraviere, Branaire Ducru, De Fieuzal, Carbonneaux, etc. These are all very Good Left Bank wines at reasonable prices. Just text me for RB wines. BTW…ALL blow away CA Cabs at their price points and it’s not close.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/3/2023 6:09:00 PM

daviladc

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At $50-75 there's nothing in Napa worth buying. Unless you're getting a closeout deal and get lucky with the vintage, Napa is a bust

But that is the sweet spot for Spanish wine. Getting a 7-8 year old Gran Riservas in that range is always a great deal.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/3/2023 6:20:22 PM

grafstrb

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Yyyyyyep. I abandoned Napa a long time ago, precisely for this reason. Sure, there is a small handful of exceptions that prove the rule, but generally speaking Napa is horrendous value. *If* one likes Bordeaux, and I do emphasize "if," much greater value (and quality, imo) can be found there, so long as "being cool" or "getting a bunch of likes on Instagram" is not part of your "Value" calculation.

Once upon a time not that long ago (certainly within the past decade), one could search around for well-aged Napa wines from lesser-known wineries, and find some pretty great deals; those days seem to be gone.

< Message edited by grafstrb -- 8/3/2023 6:21:18 PM >

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/3/2023 6:21:09 PM

WineGuyCO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daviladc

At $50-75 there's nothing in Napa worth buying. Unless you're getting a closeout deal and get lucky with the vintage, Napa is a bust

But that is the sweet spot for Spanish wine. Getting a 7-8 year old Gran Riservas in that range is always a great deal.

No $50-$75 CA Cabs worth buying. There is plenty of good Syrah, Pinot, Chardonnay, Zinfandel & GSM in that price range to buy.

< Message edited by WineGuyCO -- 8/3/2023 6:22:25 PM >

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/3/2023 7:43:34 PM

DoubleD1969

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I’ve been waiting for Eduardo to come to this conclusion.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/3/2023 8:15:27 PM

jmcmchi

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Value in Napa? An oxymoron

I gave up about 20 years ago. But people still keep buying a brand, so good luck to them

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 3:01:25 AM

lockestep

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Years ago the old "original" (as in pre-1980) Napa brands offered some value. Louis Martini, Perdoncelli, etc. I have not had anything from them since the 1990's but those might be worth exploring.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 3:43:33 AM

Echinosum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787
Yesterday I opened a Far Niente Post and Beam cab that has a price of $60 or so can you believe it had a grainy cork instead of a natural one ? This is not acceptable for a wine that price...

Whilst the wine might be disappointing in that specific case, I think you are going to have to get used to decent quality wine using composition closures, and realise that it isn't a problem. Much better composition corks are available these days, suitable for good quality wines. They reduce the incidence of corked bottles in comparison to natural corks.

If you are going to use a composition closure, why not use a screw top, you might ask? I think it is to do with cork pull theatre in restaurants, which you can't do with a screw top.

I find composition corks have crept up the quality ladder quite a long way these days, especially for wines from Italy, where I think the restaurant trade probably has a greater influence on the wine producer than other countries.

The thing that annoys me is that they can be very difficult to get off the corkscrew after you have pulled them.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 5:17:16 AM

Eduardo787

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787
Yesterday I opened a Far Niente Post and Beam cab that has a price of $60 or so can you believe it had a grainy cork instead of a natural one ? This is not acceptable for a wine that price...

Whilst the wine might be disappointing in that specific case, I think you are going to have to get used to decent quality wine using composition closures, and realise that it isn't a problem. Much better composition corks are available these days, suitable for good quality wines. They reduce the incidence of corked bottles in comparison to natural corks.

If you are going to use a composition closure, why not use a screw top, you might ask? I think it is to do with cork pull theatre in restaurants, which you can't do with a screw top.

I find composition corks have crept up the quality ladder quite a long way these days, especially for wines from Italy, where I think the restaurant trade probably has a greater influence on the wine producer than other countries.

The thing that annoys me is that they can be very difficult to get off the corkscrew after you have pulled them.

While I fully understand your views on this and agree 100%, in this very particular case I think it is because of cost cutting and not because of ecology or sustainability. The last Far Niente cab I opened before this one was a 2018 and it was one of the better offerings ( not the Oakville version but the Napa cav sauv) and that wine is in the $120s or so and it comes with a natural cork. Post and Beam is their entry level wine at $60 and has the grainy one. So, at least on paper it seems that the reason is not ecology or because you have a better product but rather an economic issue. I know we would get into another whole topic here, but personally I prefer a screwcap than syntethic or grainy cork. In the not so distant future we will have to give up the cork pull theatre as new generations demand more and more sustainability and care for the enviroment. The distance in views of almost anything between me and my parents were nothing compared between me and my kids and while I might enjoy to pull a cork of a bottle they are thinking about how many trees could be saved if we changed this tradition. But thats a very difficult path to touch because it could veer into politics and stuff

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 6:47:11 AM

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No 50-75 worth buying?
lol

Lewelling, Drinkward-Peschon, Frog's Leap, Beau Vigne Juliet, Ruston, Snowden Ranch...

I thought of those in ~5 seconds. All are highly regarded.

Now for people who don't care for Napa Cab, that is a different discussion. For me, choosing a different region to replace the taste experience of Napa Cab is the same as choosing a region other than Burgundy to deliver the taste experience of Burgundy.
YMMV

< Message edited by S1 -- 8/4/2023 7:26:16 AM >

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 8:46:55 AM

DoubleD1969

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I don't know about that S1. lol I've had a few of those when they were $35, and they were okay. I would rather spend the dollars and a little patience on the Clerc-Milons and Duhart-Milons across the pond. If you find the right retailer and get on the futures price, it's even a better deal for Bordeaux.

It sounds like it would be a great offline theme though - Napa cabs/blend in $50-$75 range versus Bordeaux or WA - if one can pull it off.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 10:07:14 AM

KPB

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I agree that Bordeaux is the better deal in that price range!

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 11:59:09 AM

jmcmchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DoubleD1969

I don't know about that S1. lol I've had a few of those when they were $35, and they were okay. I would rather spend the dollars and a little patience on the Clerc-Milons and Duhart-Milons across the pond. If you find the right retailer and get on the futures price, it's even a better deal for Bordeaux.

It sounds like it would be a great offline theme though - Napa cabs/blend in $50-$75 range versus Bordeaux or WA - if one can pull it off.

One of our local winemakers does an occasional matchup of his wines against a few Bordeaux. Don’t know if he was able to do it this year

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 12:20:01 PM

MB1991

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Mostly agree, though I got a few bottles of Heitz for $50 recently and it's a lovely cab.

At that price point, and much below, I absolutely LOVE the South African cabs and bordeaux blends. I think that may be the best value in red wine.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 1:25:04 PM

Ibetian

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The Bordeaux/CA ratio in my cellar is about 50:1, so my allegiance is clear.

That said, I had a 2018 Hall with grilled burgers the other day, and after 60+ minutes in the decanter it opened up nicely. Decent complexity with a pleasing mouth feel, a good match with the burgers. At $50, a fair price, but not a steal, and not going to change my belief that Bordeaux offers better value.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 1:31:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: S1

Now for people who don't care for Napa Cab, that is a different discussion.

I am with Diana Snowden Seysses from Domaine Dujac.
I want my Pinot from Burgundy; I want my Cabernet from Napa.
Personal preference.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 1:33:00 PM

DoubleD1969

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DoubleD1969
I don't know about that S1. lol I've had a few of those when they were $35, and they were okay. I would rather spend the dollars and a little patience on the Clerc-Milons and Duhart-Milons across the pond. If you find the right retailer and get on the futures price, it's even a better deal for Bordeaux.

It sounds like it would be a great offline theme though - Napa cabs/blend in $50-$75 range versus Bordeaux or WA - if one can pull it off.

One of our local winemakers does an occasional matchup of his wines against a few Bordeaux. Don’t know if he was able to do it this year

Nice! I think Napa wines show better with less than 10 years of age than Bordeaux, in general and speaking about Classified Growths. 15 years or older is when Bordeaux starts to hit their stride for my palate.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 2:34:54 PM

jmcmchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ibetian

The Bordeaux/CA ratio in my cellar is about 50:1, so my allegiance is clear.

California is just over1% of my cellar…..and Napa is a sixth of that….

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 9:09:00 PM

jonboy74

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I suspect there is a thread on the "other forum" that covers this topic.

Bordeaux is 49% of my cellar, Napa 11.5%

I've been drinking more Napa cabs lately as my bordeaux age.
Some of the lower priced napa cabs I think are great at price points that are prob over the $50 but definitely under $100:
Jean Edwards
EMH (Black Cat Appreciation Day coming very soon, great pricing on that day!)
Di Costanzo DI CO is by far one of the top value plays, and its a SVD even though its not advertised as such on the label. Insane value
La Pelle
William & Mary
Caterwaul (very modern style)

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/4/2023 10:05:44 PM

DrBad

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There are good values in this price range but not at your local liquor store or at a restaurant or however you're picking it up. If you're on a mailing list or a crafty shopper I think these are all good values and give quality Napa cab:

DiCo I've had has been very decent.
William & Mary - gotta be on his list but at $75, really good!
Chappellett Signature - I'm on their mailing list, no buying requirements, and get offers from them for this wine around $60/btl, typically a 6-er. Very good wine.
Frog's Leap - good deal and decent wine around $60
Anderson's Conn Valley Estate (not their $50 Napa Valley) - Typically around $100 but can get deals from the winery to pick it up around $70, very good quality Napa Cab

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/5/2023 3:23:54 AM

KPB

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You make a good point. When I’m out in Napa or Sonoma, it isn’t hard to find good bottles in that range or below. But it can be hit and miss “at a distance”

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/5/2023 4:29:49 AM

ImUrHuckleberry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jonboy74
EMH (Black Cat Appreciation Day coming very soon, great pricing on that day!)

Merrill sold her vineyard this year after having sold off her grapes last year, IIRC. I think the last vintage of Black Cat might have been 2021? In any case, she might still be doing an appreciation day this year, but there probably won't be many/any after this.

(Napa is only 4 percent of my cellar, and a big chunk of that is Black Cat.)

< Message edited by ImUrHuckleberry -- 8/5/2023 4:30:18 AM >

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/5/2023 6:06:40 AM

DoubleD1969

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DrBad

There are good values in this price range but not at your local liquor store or at a restaurant or however you're picking it up. If you're on a mailing list or a crafty shopper I think these are all good values and give quality Napa cab:

DiCo I've had has been very decent.
William & Mary - gotta be on his list but at $75, really good!
Chappellett Signature - I'm on their mailing list, no buying requirements, and get offers from them for this wine around $60/btl, typically a 6-er. Very good wine.
Frog's Leap - good deal and decent wine around $60
Anderson's Conn Valley Estate (not their $50 Napa Valley) - Typically around $100 but can get deals from the winery to pick it up around $70, very good quality Napa Cab

Still not convinced that I'd buy these over Bordeaux Classified Growths at the same price point and definitely not with futures prices. Added bonus for Bordeaux (if you are just starting to buy for the long haul) is that they appreciate in value and taste. :-)

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/5/2023 9:05:27 AM

sastewart

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DoubleD1969

quote:

ORIGINAL: DrBad

There are good values in this price range but not at your local liquor store or at a restaurant or however you're picking it up. If you're on a mailing list or a crafty shopper I think these are all good values and give quality Napa cab:

DiCo I've had has been very decent.
William & Mary - gotta be on his list but at $75, really good!
Chappellett Signature - I'm on their mailing list, no buying requirements, and get offers from them for this wine around $60/btl, typically a 6-er. Very good wine.
Frog's Leap - good deal and decent wine around $60
Anderson's Conn Valley Estate (not their $50 Napa Valley) - Typically around $100 but can get deals from the winery to pick it up around $70, very good quality Napa Cab

Still not convinced that I'd buy these over Bordeaux Classified Growths at the same price point and definitely not with futures prices. Added bonus for Bordeaux (if you are just starting to buy for the long haul) is that they appreciate in value and taste. :-)

I would agree DD, My cellar is about 5 to 1 Bordeaux but I enjoy good Cabernet and still have Chappellett Signature, Frogs Leap and ACV Estate Reserve in my cellar (all very good wines in my opinion).

On the other hand the last vintage of Bordeaux I bought futures of was 2019 and I purchased 6 bottles each of the following as well as another 100 bottles of lesser but still excellent wines:
La Gaffelière $55
Domaine de Chevalier $56 and later at Costco for $50
Grand-Puy-Lacoste $59
Léoville Poyferré $67
Pontet-Canet $76
There is a place for both Cabernet and Bordeaux in my cellar but I'd probably take the above listed Bordeaux over my Chappellett, Frogs Leap and ACV.

I think it is much easier to find value in Bordeaux in general, but at $25 to $50 per bottle Napa has nothing to compare with:
Branaire-Ducru $40
Gloria $33.50
Lagrange $42
Langoa Barton $39.50
Malartic-Lagravière $37.50
Sansonnet $31

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/5/2023 11:38:57 AM

WineGuyCO

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Just saw these at our local CostCo:

2019 Ch Fleur Cardinale $34.99
2019 Ch Malescot St Exupery $39.99
2019 Ch Marquis D’Alesme $39.99
2018 Ch Corbin $39.99

Try that Napa lol

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/5/2023 1:18:26 PM

KPB

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I wouldn’t hesitate to buy Pontet Canet, Lynch Bages, Canon, Montrose. All should be in that price range.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/5/2023 1:25:20 PM

khmark7

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California Cabernet lost me with the style changes around 2005 and Bordeaux styles changed significantly around 2005-2009, however there is still value and some more classic styled reds in Bordeaux so I continue to buy. Overall in my cellar i only have a few bottles remaining of California Cabernet....and those will be gone within a year or two.

If i really want value.....dare i say (QPR!) i go with Bordeaux 2nd wines from a few of the estates.

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RE: Not finding value in Napa wines at all. - 8/5/2023 1:58:20 PM

Ibetian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

I wouldn’t hesitate to buy Pontet Canet, Lynch Bages, Canon, Montrose. All should be in that price range.

All these are about $150 or so now. They are among the biggest holdings in my cellar, so I agree that they are worth it, but don’t sell in the $50-$100 range any more, alas!

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