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I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/1/2023 4:48:03 PM

hankj

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Waited forever to get in the club, getting decent offers with decent pricing, but I just don't really want to buy Cayuse anymore.

I'm not sure exactly why. I like Cayuse! It's good wine.

But I don't drink it. I NEVER go in my cellar, see the Cayuse and go "oh yeah dying to drink that." It's more like I see it and rationalize "now now, that's a good wine that you like, so you ought to open it." Cayuse is a bit of a serious ride, maybe like a big roller coaster. Love it, but have to amp myself up a little to take on the thrill.

I can't open Cayuse for company. More than half of the people I serve it to think it is disgusting. My wife will drink Ridge reds until the sun comes up, but Cayuse is a hard no. My wine club might hold 1000 bottles of Cayuse collectively, many getting pretty old, so it's not a great one to bring to wine club either - everyone has been there, done that, slept off the hangover in Walla Walla.

And, truth be told, I find the Cayuse truther-sycophants off-putting. You read Cayuse tasting notes and it's as if Christophe is god p**sing angel's tears into a bottle. Then I look at the broader wine experience of the "98-100points, with room to improve over 30-40 years," and they usually don't know wine outside of the PNW. I should be more understanding, but it for some reason annoys me how many people with small knowledge base are over the moon about Cayuse and give it huge scores. That annoyance for some reason makes me like the wine itself less.

I'll reiterate, Cayuse is good! I do like it! But since it sits in my cellar and I don't have the urge to drink it, nor the opportunity given I mostly have to drink it alone.

Waited forever, and with great anticipation, to get into the club, but now I'm essentially coercing myself to click the accept allocation button. That's just not how it should be, right?

I think I'm done buying Cayuse.

< Message edited by hankj -- 9/1/2023 4:49:34 PM >

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/1/2023 5:29:53 PM

khmark7

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I made the mailing list last year and then passed on my allocation. I'm just not into big $$ wines right now and I have plenty of stuff to drink on the high end, which I rarely open. Visiting wine friends who appreciate the Grand Cru type wines isn't something I do very often at the moment.

Right now I am still deciding if I will continue to purchase Reynvaan. Great wines, but not something I open very often.

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/1/2023 6:01:49 PM

Eduardo787

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Hank, I have only had one Cayuse and I had it with you. That memoir will never fade and I will remember that day with you and the Seattle Marsupials forever. That wine made a great impresion in me and even though I have had many times very expensive wines, Bionic Frog was like driving a moon rover in the moon, unique and out of this world experience. Is Cayuse a 100 pointer ? Hell, I dont know ! but the experience was such unique one that it dented me forever.

So, as you can see, you brought with that wine a unique experience to me. For sure there are other people out there that will appreciate this kind of attentions from you. If cant find any send me a PM and I will fly to Seattle asap !

Ed

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/1/2023 6:58:32 PM

hankj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

Hank, I have only had one Cayuse and I had it with you. That memoir will never fade and I will remember that day with you and the Seattle Marsupials forever. That wine made a great impresion in me and even though I have had many times very expensive wines, Bionic Frog was like driving a moon rover in the moon, unique and out of this world experience. Is Cayuse a 100 pointer ? Hell, I dont know ! but the experience was such unique one that it dented me forever.

So, as you can see, you brought with that wine a unique experience to me. For sure there are other people out there that will appreciate this kind of attentions from you. If cant find any send me a PM and I will fly to Seattle asap !

Ed

Ed not me! But next time I'd be happy to sponsor as much Cayuse as you want to drink :)

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/1/2023 8:48:21 PM

Eduardo787

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hankj

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

Hank, I have only had one Cayuse and I had it with you. That memoir will never fade and I will remember that day with you and the Seattle Marsupials forever. That wine made a great impresion in me and even though I have had many times very expensive wines, Bionic Frog was like driving a moon rover in the moon, unique and out of this world experience. Is Cayuse a 100 pointer ? Hell, I dont know ! but the experience was such unique one that it dented me forever.

So, as you can see, you brought with that wine a unique experience to me. For sure there are other people out there that will appreciate this kind of attentions from you. If cant find any send me a PM and I will fly to Seattle asap !

Ed

Ed not me! But next time I'd be happy to sponsor as much Cayuse as you want to drink :)

Hahahahaha!!! So who sponsored that Bionic Frog ? I am know all mixed up

! Ok....so know I buy my ticket and fly to SEA, we should do 3-5 bottles a least ! Thanks for the offer....someday I hope in the near future

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/1/2023 10:40:00 PM

hankj

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Probably Slye or Skifree - those two have a lot of Frogs ;)

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/1/2023 11:05:39 PM

Eduardo787

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hankj

Probably Slye or Skifree - those two have a lot of Frogs ;)

Slye !!! yup it was him

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/2/2023 11:58:19 AM

WineGuyCO

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I think Cayuse & Reynvaan Syrahs you either like or don’t. I don’t really care for that funky, rocks thing as it detracts from the varietal character of the grape. It’s like Greek Retsina (which I like) but it’s not $100 plus a bottle so you can appreciate the uniqueness more. I was actually going to start a Why Do You Like Cayuse Syrah thread because it is quite unique and not something everybody will like. For those that do it’s quite the Cult following. I’d rather just drink a normal tasting N Rhone.

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/2/2023 3:49:00 PM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hankj

Waited forever to get in the club, getting decent offers with decent pricing, but I just don't really want to buy Cayuse anymore.

I'm not sure exactly why. I like Cayuse! It's good wine.

But I don't drink it. I NEVER go in my cellar, see the Cayuse and go "oh yeah dying to drink that." It's more like I see it and rationalize "now now, that's a good wine that you like, so you ought to open it." Cayuse is a bit of a serious ride, maybe like a big roller coaster. Love it, but have to amp myself up a little to take on the thrill.

I can't open Cayuse for company. More than half of the people I serve it to think it is disgusting. My wife will drink Ridge reds until the sun comes up, but Cayuse is a hard no. My wine club might hold 1000 bottles of Cayuse collectively, many getting pretty old, so it's not a great one to bring to wine club either - everyone has been there, done that, slept off the hangover in Walla Walla.

And, truth be told, I find the Cayuse truther-sycophants off-putting. You read Cayuse tasting notes and it's as if Christophe is god p**sing angel's tears into a bottle. Then I look at the broader wine experience of the "98-100points, with room to improve over 30-40 years," and they usually don't know wine outside of the PNW. I should be more understanding, but it for some reason annoys me how many people with small knowledge base are over the moon about Cayuse and give it huge scores. That annoyance for some reason makes me like the wine itself less.

I'll reiterate, Cayuse is good! I do like it! But since it sits in my cellar and I don't have the urge to drink it, nor the opportunity given I mostly have to drink it alone.

Waited forever, and with great anticipation, to get into the club, but now I'm essentially coercing myself to click the accept allocation button. That's just not how it should be, right?

I think I'm done buying Cayuse.

Yep, sounds like you've reached your Usable Limit. Best to stop, and pivot elsewhere. I, too, have been thinking about my ever-growing Cayuse collection, but I continue to buy because I keep telling myself I'm going to start drinking them. Up until about now, I've felt my holdings are generally too young. But now I have some that are around 10 years old, so time for corks to start flying! It also helps that I have a friend who buys one bottle from each of my three packs every year, which helps temper things in a good way.

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/2/2023 5:06:10 PM

KPB

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Interesting! In fact, me too, although I have less experience: I have only tried a few bottles from Cayuse…. Found them a bit disjointed. Right now the winery I’m really unsure about is one of their spin-offs: Horsepower. I have a case, and maybe I like them. Maybe not.

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/2/2023 8:36:06 PM

Hollowine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WineGuyCO
I think Cayuse & Reynvaan Syrahs you either like or don’t. I don’t really care for that funky, rocks thing as it detracts from the varietal character of the grape.

I'll note that at a recent wine dinner we got into a pretty serious discussion about wines made in a "reductive" style. This has long been the complaint about Cayuse, and early Reynvaan as Christophe consulted for them in the early years (I cannot speak to recent Reynvaan). I will just add that there is a difference between "The Rocks" terroir and wines exhibiting reductive character which also happen to be from "The Rocks." Cayuse is certainly in the later category.

I think The Rocks District of MF is very unique terroir and AVA region. There is a definite terror nuance to the Syrah grown there, but I wouldn't label them all "Cayuse like," I think some of the stuff being done by Force Majeure, Rasa, and by Rotie really defy the Cayuse stereotype.

quote:

I’d rather just drink a normal tasting N Rhone.

Who wouldn't! (says a WA State guy)

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/3/2023 6:49:41 AM

KPB

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I’ve enjoyed the Rasa wines I tried, didn’t have that same impression of them seeming disjointed. So we should be wary not to lump all WA Rhône-varietal wines into one category.

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/3/2023 10:52:38 AM

Hollowine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

I’ve enjoyed the Rasa wines I tried, didn’t have that same impression of them seeming disjointed. So we should be wary not to lump all WA Rhône-varietal wines into one category.

Rasa does have a couple different Syrah and Grenache based wines, so to be clear, their Veritas Sequitur was based on the SJR Vineyard fruit in The Rocks District. I believe it has (or will) shift to Rasa Estate fruit from the property immediately adjacent to SJR Vineyard.

They have several other wines made from Syrah vineyards in various other regions of WA State.

All of which is evidenced by CT WA State Barrel Projects in '12, '14, and '16

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/3/2023 11:21:56 AM

WineGuyCO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

I’ve enjoyed the Rasa wines I tried, didn’t have that same impression of them seeming disjointed. So we should be wary not to lump all WA Rhône-varietal wines into one category.

I have had many nice traditional WA Syrahs. Force Majeure, Rasa, Betz, Gramercy, KVintners, etc. all which have been very good. The only two That I haven’t liked is Cayuse & Reynvaan. So it seems the majority of WA Syrah Producers are traditional and the minority being rocks, reductive (Thanks Hollowine). None of the traditional WA Syrahs are disjointed.

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/3/2023 4:06:33 PM

Slye

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Yes Ed it was me who brought the BF! So glad you liked it and it is etched firmly in your memory!

I really like the uniqueness of Cayuse, particularly the syrahs, and particularly with age. Having said that I have a lot, and have cut back on purchases not because I don't like the wines, but because I like variety. As Hankj alluded to in his OP, these tend to be big wines, and I am not always in the mood for a big wine. Sometimes they are great -- either alone or with a hearty meal. But sometimes I just want something less complex, less intense.

And I am sorry that I have contributed to the phenomenon of you not buying Cayuse because it does not make sense to bring to our tastings! :-) On a mroe serious note as I, and I think skifree, have been cutting back, there is room for more recent vintages of some of their wines in our tasting group......

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/4/2023 12:00:13 AM

rogerjanss

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I have been “patiently” waiting on the Cayuse list since 2014 but have enjoyed those I get in Seattle tastings and on 2nd market. Totally agree with Hank that these are hard wines to share with General Public but I do enjoy them if in the right mood - often solo. Also hard to pair with food and not good in blind tasting’s because so obvious. I do overall prefer Rasa and Force Majeure as purer expressions of WW terroir but still think Cayuse has its place in my cellar. It’s so unique that comparisons are difficult. Great wine for a blue moon?

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/4/2023 1:27:49 PM

skifree

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slye

Yes Ed it was me who brought the BF! So glad you liked it and it is etched firmly in your memory!

I really like the uniqueness of Cayuse, particularly the syrahs, and particularly with age. Having said that I have a lot, and have cut back on purchases not because I don't like the wines, but because I like variety. As Hankj alluded to in his OP, these tend to be big wines, and I am not always in the mood for a big wine. Sometimes they are great -- either alone or with a hearty meal. But sometimes I just want something less complex, less intense.

And I am sorry that I have contributed to the phenomenon of you not buying Cayuse because it does not make sense to bring to our tastings! :-) On a more serious note as I, and I think skifree, have been cutting back, there is room for more recent vintages of some of their wines in our tasting group......

I dropped Cayuse completely after the 2019 vintage and No Girls after the 2014 vintage.

Surprisingly, I have 118 bottles of Cayuse in the cellar and have consumed 118 bottles. I got on the list starting with the 2007 vintage, so picked up in 2009 or 2010? At that consumption rate, think I made the right choice despite my fondness for the wines.

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/4/2023 6:23:41 PM

KPB

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Opened the 2016 Rasa Principia (inspired by this thread). A fantastic wine, complex aromatic expression centered on a spicy red plum aroma with hints of beeswax…. really lovely balance and a unique palate (is that cocoa? I don’t normally think of cocoa as a Syrah flavor). Is there any merlot in this wine? Anyhow, it works super well. No hesitation in saying that I love it.

< Message edited by KPB -- 9/4/2023 6:24:21 PM >

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/5/2023 8:16:03 AM

hankj

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quote:

Great wine for a blue moon?

Sure, how many of those does one need?

< Message edited by hankj -- 9/5/2023 8:38:58 AM >

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/5/2023 8:24:32 AM

hankj

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quote:

And I am sorry that I have contributed to the phenomenon of you not buying Cayuse because it does not make sense to bring to our tastings!

Apology accepted! I am definitely happy to drink your Cayuse whenever you want.

We differ a bit on Cayuse and age. It's a big wine, reductive, funky, and relatively low acid compared to many other Washington Syrahs. As such I think it peaks, in general, at or even within 10 years. It doesn't work for my palate as it gets old - picks up too much of an organic rot character (which I've heard described by an Italian vintner as "rancia") that doesn't play well with the funk and reduction.

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RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/5/2023 8:32:39 AM

hankj

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I will quickly reiterate that Cayuse is good wine and that I like it!

I think though that part of the phenomenon that causes people to buy massive amounts is a scarcity thing. It's expensive on the secondary market, but really a pretty good deal in the club. So you wait almost a decade to get in the club, then you get access to the price you've been coveting, and then you don't want to lose access to that price.

It's exactly what's holding me back from not ordering this year. Once you're out, you're on the street and they're not letting you back in.

The other thing I think, which is pretty clever marketing: All of those deep yellow three pack boxes look great stacked up in a wine cellar, and are really convenient - you don't need racking. You can essentially build racking just by stacking piles of the three packs. So there's always room, and they look really cool and eye-catching. And even out of the packaging, All the deep yellow bottle necks also look really cool.

Many times I've walked into other people's cellars, and if they have a lot of Cayuse, the whole group goes " oh wow! Look at all of that Cayuse!" Unfailingly, you have a big stack of Cayuse fellow wine geeks are going to stroke your ego about how great that is. It's such an iconic looking packaging that even if you don't have a lot, people notice it in comment positively on it. It's really a smart marketing aspect, makes Cayuse more appealing from the collecting perspective.

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Post #: 21

RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/5/2023 8:38:18 AM

hankj

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I think another appeal of Cayuse that keeps it in cult status for so many stems from the fact that they charge quite a lot for shipping club purchases, more than double what some shops would charge, about double what Ridge charges, etc. And they don't discount you much if anything if you have a couple of cases to ship.

So people who are near enough by drive out to Walla Walla en masse for release weekend. Why not make a wine weekend of it? It cost X to ship anyway. And then you are literally part of a human gathering over a product in which everyone holds common interest.

Again, I think it is very slick marketing to incentivize people to go to a Cayuse love in annually. It's not just buying a wine, it's being part of something. Smart.

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Post #: 22

RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/5/2023 10:43:51 AM

KPB

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Still, it comes down to the pleasure you take in the wine itself.

Sticking with syrah, I'll give the example of top Hermitage reds. I love those with age, but the La La's and Chave's and Guigal Ermitage le Pavillon bottles all need 15-20 years minimum to really show their stuff. If you drink them too young, nothing is actually bad about them, but the wild aromatics you find at age 21 (or 25, or 30) aren't there yet. I remember a lucky purchase of the Jaboulet La Chapelle 1978 -- somehow around 2005, I was able to get most of a case at a really low price from a restaurant bankruptcy sale (the store that bought the restaurant stuff literally didn't want the wine and offered it at $1 more than they spent for it). A revelation for me. Incredible. Yet young bottles of La Chapelle are just "tasty syrah" with none of that complexity.

So my question with Cayuse centers on where their wines will go. The Rasa Principia has immediate appeal -- the 2016 is only 7 years old but already drinking well. I actually wonder if it might not be a blend -- it has a cocoa flavor on the midpalate that reminds me of merlot, and isn't something I've often noticed in syrah. But whatever the reason, delicious and I am not feeling a need to cellar it for decades before opening them.

In contrast, the Cayuse wines I've tried have felt a bit awkward, not totally knit together. OK, fine, maybe wines to revisit at ago 21. But when I hold my Hermitage reds I actually know where those are heading. With Cayuse, I have no idea when they would plateau or what they might express at that point.

As a younger wine collector, when I was 30 or 35, I could afford the time and could buy wines like these and wait, try them once every few years, see how the aging curve looks for them. The Pacific NW is a totally different region, and there is no reason to assume it yields wines that age just like Hermitage. But how, then, will these age? And same question for Horsepower: They clearly do need time in the cellar. But how long?

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Post #: 23

RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/7/2023 1:20:19 PM

brettlaurvick

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Just my 2 cents on this topic...

I've been buying a lot less Cayuse the last few releases. Primarily because my wife can't stand the funkiness. I still enjoy them, but do find them difficult to open unless I have a decent idea they will be appreciated. I've opened a few for customers at our business and folks generally enjoy them. This recent release I bought Bionic Frog and Widowmaker only.

I also think people drink Cayuse too young. The older vintages I've had have been much more enjoyable than anything opened young. My favorite bottle was a 2004 Bionic Frog I got from their Ex-Cellar sale. Think it was 15 years old and it was delightful.

My current dilemma is I've never had a Widowmaker and I prefer to drink cabs at 8+ years or more. My oldest vintage is 2019. I will probably sacrifice one soon to make sure I want to continue with that particular wine.

Long way of saying I get the OP.

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Post #: 24

RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/7/2023 1:28:27 PM

Slye

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hankj

quote:

And I am sorry that I have contributed to the phenomenon of you not buying Cayuse because it does not make sense to bring to our tastings!

Apology accepted! I am definitely happy to drink your Cayuse whenever you want.

We differ a bit on Cayuse and age. It's a big wine, reductive, funky, and relatively low acid compared to many other Washington Syrahs. As such I think it peaks, in general, at or even within 10 years. It doesn't work for my palate as it gets old - picks up too much of an organic rot character (which I've heard described by an Italian vintner as "rancia") that doesn't play well with the funk and reduction.

I think perhaps we agree and disagree (how is that for diplomatic!). Some of the vintages do not hold up well, and the biggest issue I think is the low acid as you noted. But I have yet to open a Cayuse syrah that I have thought is over the hill, and that includes from the early 2000s. I think the issue of course is that these wines have only been around for 25 years or so -- so we are still learning how well they actually age. I have had some of the bordeaux blends (Camaspelo comes to mind) that I do think tend to fit within your ten year window.

The other thing I will say is that some of the syrahs within that ten year window have the strong funk intensity that I sometimes really enjoy. Over time the funk starts to recede and integrate more.

Hmmm, this is making me want to pull out some older vintages to see how they are faring......

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Post #: 25

RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/7/2023 2:13:50 PM

Blue Shorts

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My palate has changed over the years. I used to absolutely love an earthy, funky syrah.

Now? Not so much. I now prefer more fruity syrahs that have a hint of pepper and bacon.

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Post #: 26

RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/16/2023 10:54:23 PM

peeks13

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Joined: 10/7/2009
From: Wilmette, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blue Shorts

My palate has changed over the years. I used to absolutely love an earthy, funky syrah.

Now? Not so much. I now prefer more fruity syrahs that have a hint of pepper and bacon.

Which is more representative of fruit/pepper/bacon? Hermitage or Cote Rotie or somewhere else?

(in reply to Blue Shorts)

Post #: 27

RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/17/2023 8:17:23 AM

KPB

Posts: 4658
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
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You find it on both, in the more expensive wines. I wouldn’t say that either has this character on cheaper wines. The expensive ones tend to grow in vineyards sort of carved into steep hillsides over the Rhône, facing south, with a tremendous amount of lime in the soil and no obvious sources of subsurface moisture at all. Quite warm in the midday during the summer, but the river brings humidity at night. So the vines struggle and yields are low, but they do achieve full ripeness.

These wines then actually need 20 or even more years to fully mature. Examples would be the La La wines from Guigal, JL Chave, Chapoutier L’Ermite. But there are a number of producers who make wines that will eventually have this character.

The bacon fat character actually is something I personally perceive as more of a slightly salty brioche aroma, but maybe I just don’t eat enough bacon or something. Anyhow, I know what people are referring to, even if that isn’t really how it smells for me!

< Message edited by KPB -- 9/22/2023 5:11:03 AM >

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to peeks13)

Post #: 28

RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/21/2023 3:20:29 PM

markandsusanw

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Joined: 5/10/2010
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I've only been on the Cayuse list for 5 years or so, after waiting for 9+, but it already feels like we so much (70+ bottles, not including Horsepower and No Girls), I'm either going to need to try more of it too young, or give up some of our offerings blind. With wish list adds we now have everything except Pig and Frog, and it's just too much, especially given how long we plan on cellaring the bulk of it.

< Message edited by markandsusanw -- 9/21/2023 3:21:53 PM >

(in reply to KPB)

Post #: 29

RE: I think I don't want to buy any more Cayuse - 9/22/2023 5:09:59 AM

KPB

Posts: 4658
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline

Oops

< Message edited by KPB -- 9/22/2023 5:10:36 AM >

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to KPB)

Post #: 30