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Passive cellar advice - 9/23/2023 5:20:12 PM

typ993

Posts: 5
Joined: 9/7/2011
Status: offline

Hi all,

I'm building a new house and was eyeing the architect's drawings and saw that what he had designated as a crawl space would make a good wine cellar. I've read through a bunch of the other passive cellar threads here and had a couple questions that pertain to what I'm doing (in wine cellar image, top is north).

[image]https://1drv.ms/i/s!AoMHUiZ9qb3TgqQrL4KUSPpVhnsFbQ?e=QvH2lE[/image]

Some background on the layout: The north and west walls will be below grade. The south wall might have only a foot or so above grade and the area south of that south wall will be covered by a wide deck (so always in shade). This is located in central Washington state (summers 85-105F, winters 10-45F). The east wall opens into a storage/mechanical room, also largely below grade. My parents live close to this site and have a passive cellar, so I'm going to put a recording thermometer in theirs to see how much the temperature fluctuates (only two of their cellar walls are below grade).

I'm planning on painting the concrete walls and floor with a sealant like DryLock. For the east wall (to storage room), I was planning on specifying 2x6 framing and R-19 insulation, though I'm now considering spray-foaming that instead. I'm also planning on roughing-in a frame for a cooling unit in case I don't get the temp control results I want. Also planning on using a weather-stripped exterior door, maybe with a rigid foam panel glued on the back for some extra insulation.

The cellar ceiling is our front entryway floor. I'm planning on putting R-30 insulation and a vapor barrier in the joists. One consideration is that the hot water line to our kitchen will be running through here, so I'm going to have that wrapped in pipe insulation.

My questions:

- Would I want to insulate the concrete walls at all? Otherwise, I'm going to go with firring strips and greenboard, then mount wooden wine racks to that. For now, I was going to leave the west wall free and just stack wooden wine crates there; maybe I'll add a frame there later.
- Is that enough insulation in the ceiling? And is there more I can do to insulate the hot water pipe? Maybe spray foam that in?

Post #: 1

RE: Passive cellar advice - 9/23/2023 6:03:02 PM

skifree

Posts: 3407
Joined: 3/14/2010
From: SE King County, Washington
Status: offline

I couldn't view the image, but it sounds like you have thought this through pretty well. Sounds like your cellar will be functional, like mine.

I am on the west side, so have a little less temperature swing and a little more humidity in my passive cellar. I did not insulate the concrete walls and attached my racking directly to the concrete (I did paint as you are going to). I chose cedar racking, and it has turned out great - has held up really well in the humidity.

My temperature swings are very slow, as I expected. I do have to keep a dehumidifier in the cellar.

Welcome to the forum!

_____________________________

So much wine, so little time

(in reply to typ993)

Post #: 2

RE: Passive cellar advice - 9/23/2023 6:07:28 PM

gotfunk

Posts: 130
Joined: 1/28/2014
From: Oregon
Status: offline

I recommend picking up a copy of Richard Gold's book. It goes into considerable detail on construction for passive cellars.

(in reply to skifree)

Post #: 3

RE: Passive cellar advice - 9/24/2023 5:48:40 AM

pbilling

Posts: 334
Joined: 1/17/2012
From: Southwest Michigan
Status: offline

I've built 2 passive cellars now, both with very much the same layout you have. I think your design is basically sound.

A couple of suggestions.

Absolutely use spray foam insulation, framed walls and ceiling, it gives you both insulation and a great vapor barrier.

If possible run the hot water line through a PVC sleeve, this will help with insulation and make it possible to service pipe if needed.

Rather than a 2x6 wall consider a double 2x4 wall with offset studs and insulation.

Follow Skifree's advice and place your racks on the exterior walls.

Use a smooth exterior grade insulated door fiberglass or steel, the smooth finish will make adding extra insulation much easier, trust me, the voice of experience.

If you have the ceiling height, consider running 2" foamboard perpendicular to the existing rafters, then strapping for nailers then Green Board or Purple Board.

Be sure to consider your lighting needs before doing all this work as it will be nearly impossible to run wire after.

If interior finish is a consideration, think about it now, cement board or Ditra Kerdi Board on the framed walls will make them ready for stucco, stone veneer or tile.

All these will help with creating a better passive cellar or MUCH more efficient cooler operation if you need it.

Paul B

_____________________________

The secret to enjoying a good wine.
1. Open the bottle and allow to breathe
2. If it doesn't look like it's breathing, give it mouth to mouth.

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Post #: 4

RE: Passive cellar advice - 9/24/2023 10:10:40 AM

grizzlymarmot

Posts: 342
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I have roxol insulation in my ceiling and I use foam pipe insulation for the pipes. I can get to all the electrical and plumbing without ripping out much - and I have had to replace the light fixture once. LED lights give off little heat - YAY.
I agree that spray foam insulation is best for the walls. I did not go all the way to the floor. The lower walls may be at an appropriate temperature and leaving them uninsulated adds to the heat sink. My door opens into the basement and it is not far off the optimal cellar temperature, so I don't have a special door. But a door with a gasket seems like a no-brainer.

(in reply to typ993)

Post #: 5

RE: Passive cellar advice - 9/25/2023 9:04:04 AM

typ993

Posts: 5
Joined: 9/7/2011
Status: offline

Thanks all, these are great suggestions!

I'm not planning on finishing the cellar (other than painting the greenboard). I am going to put down the rubber squares that were mentioned in a couple of other posts. My current (active) cellar has a bare concrete floor and I've managed to cheat fate so far, but figure I'll stop pushing my luck on dropping something.

(in reply to grizzlymarmot)

Post #: 6

RE: Passive cellar advice - 9/25/2023 11:22:59 AM

ChrisinCowiche

Posts: 7845
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: typ993

Thanks all, these are great suggestions!

I'm not planning on finishing the cellar (other than painting the greenboard). I am going to put down the rubber squares that were mentioned in a couple of other posts. My current (active) cellar has a bare concrete floor and I've managed to cheat fate so far, but figure I'll stop pushing my luck on dropping something.

Hello neighbor.

Per your original questions, I think your proposed insulation, doors, ceiling are all adequate. I built a similar passive cellar near Yakima ~13 years ago. Never installed a cooling unit, never had a heat damaged bottle, though our low humidity does lead to crumbly corks. Not a problem if laying bottles sideways in racking, but an annoyance at times opening older bottles.

Unless you like greenboard better than concrete, no structural need to add that step, imo. I did fur out a wooden paneling over my concrete wall, for appearance mostly.

Good luck, and welcome to CT Forum!

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Post #: 7

RE: Passive cellar advice - 9/27/2023 2:40:23 PM

wadcorp

Posts: 9332
Joined: 10/29/2008
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

Here you go.

.

_____________________________

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— Galileo Galilei, physicist and astronomer (1564-1642)

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Post #: 8

RE: Passive cellar advice - 9/28/2023 3:27:03 PM

typ993

Posts: 5
Joined: 9/7/2011
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Thanks for getting that image to appear! For future reference, what's the technique? I thought it would be the image tag with a URL, but apparently I was mistaken. Other forums have functionality when composing a post to add images, so kind of confused here with CT.

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Post #: 9

RE: Passive cellar advice - 10/1/2023 12:06:05 PM

cellardweller

Posts: 11
Joined: 5/30/2010
Status: offline

I question your plan to keep the space as a passive cellar with all the work you are doing on insulation.

Please note the key differences between a passive and active cellar.

Passive: Non-refrigerated wine storage. Typically, this is a conditioned, interior environment with ambient temperatures in the 65–70 degree range that does not fluctuate much. This format works fine for non-collectable ‘everyday drinking’ wine that is stored and consumed within 6 months of stocking.

Active: Refrigerated wine storage. A mechanical unit is utilized to maintain ideal long-term wine storage for the purpose of slowing the maturing rate of wine. This allows wine to age and develop. Temperature ranges can be programmed to maintain constant 55 degree temperatures and elevated humidity is maintained and controlled.

If your wines are for daily drinking then a passive cellar is fine. If you intend to keep any collectible wines for a long time, it will be a costly mistake. A passive cellar cannot keep a temperature below your median temperature for a given month. It will just slow down fluctuations. If you want to keep your wine temperatures to below 60 F or even even better to an optimal 55 F, it is simply not physically possible in the continental US (or pretty much anywhere). The cellar temperature will eventually reach ambient which can easily climb to 65 F wherever you live in the Northwest or Northeast. Once your wine reaches that temperature it will stay high for a long time even as ambient temperature goes down as the liquid acts as a heat sink.

I have built multiple wine cellars in basements and crawl spaces. I leave in the northeast on the Connecticut coast which has relatively mild temperatures year round. I recently built a new 200 sqft cellar in my latest house for about 3,000 bottles which has north and east facing subgrade concrete walls in the basement which I used for two of the cellar walls. I built two steel framed walls with double 4" steel studs with R35 insulation. (Steel framing eliminates any gaps in insulation). Ceilings were insulated to R35. I filled any gaps between wals and ceiling with spray foam insulation. I tiled the concrete floor mostly for appearance. I also used a well insulated fiberglass exterior door.

Before I put in the cooling unit the temperature was around 65 F in the spring and would slow climb up to 70 F in the summer. Total space was about 200 sqft. After I put in a small cooling unit at just below ceiling height, temperature dropped to a steady 55 F within a week and never exceeded 57 F in the summer. I purchased it over 10 years for about $2,500 and it has worked great since. It also removes about a bucket full of water to the outside of the cellar every week in the summer. In the winter it acts as humidifier as our weather becomes very dry.

So think carefully about making your cellar passive if you ever want to keep any collectibles in a good state. I recently sold a bunch of rare bottles for auction with an average age of over 25 years. They were in mint condition, with perfect labels, very good fill levels and no cork damage or seepage. I always saran wrap the labels of my most expensive bottles not in OWC to prevent scraping damage from handling. The bottles would not have been sellable for the listed prices if kept in a passive cellar.

You will find that the relatively small extra cost in a cooling unit to turn your cellar from passive to active could make huge difference on if you plan to sell or enjoy your wines years later.

< Message edited by cellardweller -- 10/1/2023 2:43:11 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Passive cellar advice - 10/1/2023 6:02:26 PM

typ993

Posts: 5
Joined: 9/7/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cellardweller
I question your plan to keep the space as a passive cellar with all the work you are doing on insulation.

quote:

I'm also planning on roughing-in a frame for a cooling unit in case I don't get the temp control results I want.

I currently have an active cellar, so I'm well aware of wanting to keep a stable temperature. I'm also aware these cooling units are a PIA to maintain. I am really not impressed with WhisperKool's engineering skills for example. Suggestions for alternate brands? I'd be looking for an in-wall unit (not a split system).

(in reply to cellardweller)

Post #: 11

RE: Passive cellar advice - 10/2/2023 9:33:21 AM

ChrisinCowiche

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From: Cowiche, WA
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Gold's book is an excellent resource and explains the thermodynamics of cellar location and construction. The premise that a passive cellar is not possible in the continental US is simply wrong. My space is not completely below grade on all sides, but if it were like many true root cellars, it would stay the temperature of the soil, which if you go deep enough, is 55 F everywhere that doesn't have geothermal heat going on.

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Post #: 12

RE: Passive cellar advice - 10/2/2023 3:43:10 PM

chrisrsprague

Posts: 180
Joined: 2/11/2021
From: Gorham, ME
Status: offline

I did something sort of similar a few years ago, but not in a crawlspace and in southern Maine instead of Washington State. You're free to peruse my thread about it, and perhaps you can gain something from it. As far as I know, I'm the only person, other than Gould, who has ever actually built his insulated door from the book.

Some notes:

My cellar does indeed usually top out at 65, as others have pointed out might happen. This does not bother me; Chateau Margaux's tops out at 63 and they've had stuff laid down there for decades. A minimum of seasonal fluctuation is what I was going for, while trying to keep everything at or below 65. I bottom out at 55, the transition is slow, there is not a constant pumping action of air in and out of the bottle through the cork, and I'm satisfied.

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Post #: 13

RE: Passive cellar advice - 11/2/2023 4:58:48 PM

typ993

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Joined: 9/7/2011
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I have a couple updates on this. I looked up the USDA soil temperature for the area (for a fairly shallow soil depth) and they had it at 54F. I'm a little skeptical of that number for a shallow soil depth (given the 100F summer temperatures), but that could be reasonable deeper in the ground.

I also put a recording temperature gauge in my parent's (passive) cellar, which is below grade on two sides and in a basement on the other two. I wouldn't say the insulation is all that thick. It's interesting that the temperature variation is pretty minimal, varying less than half a degree over the day, so hoping that I can achieve similar results in a space that will be almost all below grade on three sides and very well insulated on the fourth.

(in reply to chrisrsprague)

Post #: 14