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Are new world drinkers easier to please than old world ? - 11/12/2023 5:28:45 PM   
Eduardo787

 

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From: Monterrey Mexico
Status: offline 		I have no idea if this has come before in any of the threads but I took a good time this afternoon looking at info about scores, drinking windows, weirdest descriptors, etc of wines that I own. One piece of info was very clear : New world drinkers are much more prone to give high scores to wines than old world wine drinkers.

I know it is impossible to compare an X cab from Napa to an X wine from Bdx, but there are many wines that represent very well what we can expect of a certain terroir or AVA. For example if I want to compare average scores from wines of Pulliac ( lets say Lynch Bages for example) and compare that to a Napa cult cab in the $150-$200 range, most of the times the Napa wine would be given much higher scores.

I know we all have very different palates, but what I do not understand is why new world fans are much more easier to please than old world fans. Heck, take Burgundy, sometimes people spend hundreds of dollars and score a wine a 90 pointer while a Caymus fan will score the his wine a 95. If a higher score means that you liked the wine more than a lower score wine it seems new world fans enjoy they wine more. And no, it has nothing to do with experience or anything like that, there are many that do not like fruit bombs and others that cant stand earthy flavors.

Maybe I am missing something or maybe I am saying something quite dumb, but it seems new world are less stingy !

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/12/2023 6:06:07 PM   
ericindc

 

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I would say yes. If one of your primary elements of what you consider a "good" wine is plush fruit, then there is a much larger world of wines available for you to like. People who like savory elements, mature notes, or non-fruit complexity with restrained fruits have it much harder to find wines that fit that mold. I would argue its also much more difficult to make wines in that style as well.


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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/12/2023 6:17:29 PM   
WineGuyCO

 

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Status: offline 		I’ve said this before. People paying $150-$200 plus for CA wines are never going to rate these wines 89-90. They have to justify over paying for these wines so will rate them much higher than if they paid less for the wines. Self fulfilling prophecy. It’s probably true for those paying high prices for any wines. QPR is irrelevant for those who pay high prices. It’s hard for some to admit that some wines much less are as good as those they over pay for.

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/12/2023 6:57:31 PM   
Ibetian

 

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Status: offline 		Yes, I can buy the idea that new world drinkers rate wines higher.

In addition to the points raised earlier, I offer another possibility: almost all new world wines drink well young, say within 10 years of the vintage, while many old world wines take much longer to hit their sweet spot. There are exceptions, of course, e.g. Dunn. But you can pop and pour or decant for an hour or two and find plenty of pleasure in high end new world wines at age 10 or younger.

In the old world, the top wines take longer to reach their drinking plateau. Eduardo mentioned Lynch Bages, my wife’s favorite wine and the largest holding in my cellar (these two things are not uncorrelated 😉) LB takes a looong time to come around. The 2000 is just starting to hit early maturity; I’d guess for some palates it might still need another 5-10 years. Yet 11,000+ bottles have been consumed per CT. My guess is that about 10k were drunk too soon, including some by me. 2000 has turned out to be an exceptionally backward vintage for the top wines, much like 2005. But even less backward vintages need more time than similarly priced new world wines.

If you did a line up of new versus old world 8 years after the vintage, I’d guess new world would on average deliver considerably more pleasure.

< Message edited by Ibetian -- 11/12/2023 6:58:40 PM >

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/12/2023 8:28:30 PM   
khmark7

 

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Status: offline 		Old world fan here. Maybe lower scores but an overall better experience, especially with food. Love my 2000, 2001 & 2002 Bordeaux. Heck....I've barely touched my 2003 & 2004 Bordeaux.

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/13/2023 2:34:38 AM   
Jenise

 

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From: The Pacific Northest Westest
Status: offline 		I'm right there with Eric, Wine Guy and Ibetian, but there's another wrinkle to Ibetian's point, and that's that bottle variation is going to figure in a lot more heavily for wines one waits 20 or 30 years for. Minor flaws in corks that wouldn't show up in a younger wine will make more of a difference way, way out and each bottle is not identically enjoyable.

Speaking of age differences, well-heeled new world drinkers in the high price category might overall be newer to wine appreciation than your average Bordeaux drinker. High points are a status symbol, which is I guess what Wine Guy said.


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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/13/2023 8:28:48 AM   
Wine Grove

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WineGuyCO

I’ve said this before. People paying $150-$200 plus for CA wines are never going to rate these wines 89-90. They have to justify over paying for these wines so will rate them much higher than if they paid less for the wines. Self fulfilling prophecy. It’s probably true for those paying high prices for any wines. QPR is irrelevant for those who pay high prices. It’s hard for some to admit that some wines much less are as good as those they over pay for.


This. To that point, who would buy and drink a bottle of Scarecrow, and then rate it 89?

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/13/2023 9:24:03 AM   
Ibetian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wine Grove


quote:

ORIGINAL: WineGuyCO

I’ve said this before. People paying $150-$200 plus for CA wines are never going to rate these wines 89-90. They have to justify over paying for these wines so will rate them much higher than if they paid less for the wines. Self fulfilling prophecy. It’s probably true for those paying high prices for any wines. QPR is irrelevant for those who pay high prices. It’s hard for some to admit that some wines much less are as good as those they over pay for.


This. To that point, who would buy and drink a bottle of Scarecrow, and then rate it 89?


Yeah, but couldn’t you say the same thing about Lafite? Whether we like old or new world wines, we are all human. I think this phenomenon is called conformation bias; please correct me if I am wrong.


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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/13/2023 9:37:01 AM   
DoubleD1969

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ibetian

Yes, I can buy the idea that new world drinkers rate wines higher.

In addition to the points raised earlier, I offer another possibility: almost all new world wines drink well young, say within 10 years of the vintage, while many old world wines take much longer to hit their sweet spot. There are exceptions, of course, e.g. Dunn. But you can pop and pour or decant for an hour or two and find plenty of pleasure in high end new world wines at age 10 or younger.

In the old world, the top wines take longer to reach their drinking plateau. Eduardo mentioned Lynch Bages, my wife’s favorite wine and the largest holding in my cellar (these two things are not uncorrelated 😉) LB takes a looong time to come around. The 2000 is just starting to hit early maturity; I’d guess for some palates it might still need another 5-10 years. Yet 11,000+ bottles have been consumed per CT. My guess is that about 10k were drunk too soon, including some by me. 2000 has turned out to be an exceptionally backward vintage for the top wines, much like 2005. But even less backward vintages need more time than similarly priced new world wines.

If you did a line up of new versus old world 8 years after the vintage, I’d guess new world would on average deliver considerably more pleasure.

^Spot on

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/13/2023 9:44:33 AM   
hankj

 

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Status: offline 		I firmly agree with what Rick implies. People who buy expensive New world wines are much more likely to score high because of the price affecting perception.

People who buy expensive Old world style wines on the other hand tend to be more geeky connoisseurs, usually tasters with significantly broader knowledge. Like me for instance, I'll give a $400 bottle of wine 85 points absolutely no problem if I feel like that's where it's at.

Combine this with the fact that better new world wines are made to not have any elbows sticking out, and you do see these wines get quite high scores. There's nothing that you can call wrong with many of them them, so they must be great.

Expensive old world wines by contrast can often have some challenging features poking out, which makes it easier to say. I like this wine except .... And therefore higher score.


Just for context, I don't it all dislike big plush new world wines, find many of them quite pleasurable, even the undefined fatties at which Burgheads sniff down their tuned up noses.

But I do think the general trends around scoring expressed in this thread are exactly true.

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/13/2023 9:46:02 AM   
hankj

 

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Status: offline 		I will hedge just a little though by saying if you like plusher new world wines, there's a lot of sensation of pure pleasure in drinking them. It's easy in some ways to give wines where your dominant reaction is "this is fracking delicious" a high score, as opposed to wines where you're thinking about stuff more.

So maybe that's okay

< Message edited by hankj -- 11/13/2023 9:50:23 AM >

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/13/2023 12:47:50 PM   
Eduardo787

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hankj


People who buy expensive Old world style wines on the other hand tend to be more geeky connoisseurs, usually tasters with significantly broader knowledge. Like me for instance, I'll give a $400 bottle of wine 85 points absolutely no problem if I feel like that's where it's at.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying but, are you implying that a new world fan is less of a connoisseur than an old world fan ? A fan of Sloan, Scarecrow, Colgin, Verite, etc is less of a connnoisseur than a fan of Conseillante, VCC, Vega Sicilia, or Sassicaia ? I mean I have no issues with each camp, but I think that there are snob and new money being thrown at Napa and Bdx. Maybe you all see in the USA people ordering a $700 bottle of Napa cab at the club, but all over the world we would find those examples. China with Bdx is a very clear example.




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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/13/2023 1:38:15 PM   
wine247365

 

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Status: offline 		Something not yet mentioned is the marketing done by most DTC wineries on the West Coast that emphasize exclusivity.
If it's exclusive, then certainly it has to be the best, right?!?!

- First you have to join the wait list for access to be granted by the winery, a process we know may take years.
- Then, once you gain access, you may not be able to buy the winery's best wines because you need to prove yourself a worthy-enough buyer.
- Luckily, the benevolent wineries sometimes grant you the ability to "wish" for some of their "better, even more-worthy wines", but will keep you in anticipation of their eventual 'yes' or 'no' for sometimes weeks. It's a bit like the experience many of us had as kids anxiously awaiting Santa's arrival, not knowing what things on your wish list the jolly fat man might deliver.
- Once you get your alert that you may now order, the message always notes that you should do so quickly and not wait as the wines are highly sought after and are sold "first come, first serve" so others may buy their delicious wines before you do. (I know, some of these wines are "low" production relative to demand.)

If that entire process isn't worth a few more points on a rating, I don't know how they could improve the process to get the points. Now, I don't buy exclusive "old world" wines, but I'm guessing their marketing carries less hype than that on the U.S. West Coast. They may not be stressing how exclusive and highly sought their wines are in comparison to the marketing of many DTC U.S. wineries. Here, it happens even with bottles costing $75-$100!

< Message edited by wine247365 -- 11/13/2023 5:41:56 PM >

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/13/2023 4:44:02 PM   
hankj

 

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Status: offline 		"Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying but, are you implying that a new world fan is less of a connoisseur than an old world fan ? A fan of Sloan, Scarecrow, Colgin, Verite, etc is less of a connnoisseur than a fan of Conseillante, VCC, Vega Sicilia, or Sassicaia?"

Yes, that is what I am saying, but keep in mind on average, there will be plenty of individual exceptions.

An expensive wine drinker focused on the Napa wines you mentions will on average have less broad knowledge of wines than an expensive wine drinker into Conseillante, VCC, Vega Sicilia, or Sassicaia.

Of course "less of a connoisseur" is a squishy term. If it means something like would score lower on a sommelier exam, or likes a given area in comparison to strong knowledge of other areas, then yes, i stand by my take.

And will reiterate exceptions - one member of our Seattle tasting group is primarily into Napa but also know wine broadly.

< Message edited by hankj -- 11/13/2023 4:50:14 PM >

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/13/2023 4:47:15 PM   
hankj

 

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Status: offline 		Wine247365 you explain exactly the "Cayuse" phenomenon. I like Cayuse! But the sheer number of "single nice wine" essential newbies who slober 98's all over even the most average bottles of Cayuse is obvious.

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/14/2023 10:49:58 AM   
gotfunk

 

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Status: offline 		I think the opposite holds for Champagne drinkers. It seems like many of them are very difficult to please when compared to old world still wines in similar price brackets.

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/14/2023 6:30:37 PM   
oskiwawa

 

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Status: offline 		Unless I know the poster scores have very little value for me. A lot of factors other than the actual wine are involved there. I do value notes from people I know and from those who provide information That is beneficial to deciding how to drink the wines I have. Examples are things such as decant times, provenance, hold/drink, etc….

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/15/2023 8:50:53 AM   
KPB

 

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Status: offline 		I'm in agreement with the emerging consensus here. Eduardo, I think your OP highlights something real -- I run into it a lot.

One irony, though, is that the old world wine drinker historically wouldn't consider drinking a wine until age 15 or 20. Yet that same person now tends to buy a bottle at the local shop and then pull the cork that same evening (and anyhow, many Bordeaux just can't support 25 years of cellaring, whereas in the past any Bordeaux could go at least that far). So, early consumption is sort of expected.

New world wines "reward" early consumption. Meanwhile, the old world drinker is guaranteed to be annoyed even if they are imposing this issue on themselves!

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/15/2023 11:36:41 AM   
Blue Shorts

 

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Status: offline 		I think a lot of this has to do with expectations, as some here have pointed out. I'm not referring to expectations due to pricing, which I'm sure has an effect. I'm talking about the wines that people see as the "gold standard" that they use to compare. Years ago, before Napa wines were highly rated by the "experts", French wines, and to some degree Italian wines, were considered to be the "best".

Now, with many US wines are given top scores, many wine drinkers use them as the "gold standard" with which to make comparisons. Personally, I still prefer most Bordeaux and Burgundy wines to their US counterparts.

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/16/2023 9:43:06 AM   
BRR

 

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Status: offline 		Are Old World wine drinkers more close-minded than their counterparts? Hmmm...

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/16/2023 11:02:05 AM   
eyewino

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BRR

Are Old World wine drinkers more close-minded than their counterparts? Hmmm...


We are not more closed-minded, just more correct!

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/16/2023 11:32:49 AM   
DoubleD1969

 

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Status: offline 		Is the Old World and New World about style or geographical? How do you define the style? (I think there was a thread or two that already discussed it, and I don’t think there was a consensus on what Old World and New World meant.)

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/16/2023 1:36:13 PM   
Ibetian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DoubleD1969

Is the Old World and New World about style or geographical? How do you define the style? (I think there was a thread or two that already discussed it, and I don’t think there was a consensus on what Old World and New World meant.)


I think it starts with geography. Old world is Europe. New world includes the US, Australia etc.

In Bordeaux and Burgundy, until a few decades ago, it was tough to get grapes to ripen fully, so the wines tended to be lower in alcohol and a bit leaner. CA has its sunshine (insert Beachboys quote here) and ripeness was rarely a problem. The grapes got ripe easily, and the wines tended to be more fruit driven and have more alcohol.

Of course, there are plenty of examples of producers who make wines in a style different from their geography. And the warmer temperatures routinely experienced over the past couple of decades in Bordeaux has made it easier to make New World style wines in the old world. And some New World producers choose to make more restrained, Old World style wines (I have a Togni 2001 cab on deck to hit in the next few weeks).

Ordinarily I avoid broad generalizations and cliches like the plague, but I think that basically covers it. YMMV. Some might want to include discussions on oak treatment and wine-making techniques, but like many other things, that’s a bit beyond my knowledge base.


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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/16/2023 10:29:28 PM   
nwinther

 

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Status: offline 		I think NW wines (when we talk about a NW style) are more immedate and OW can tend to need a bit more coercion to show their qualities.
So if you taste N wines in a sitting, you move on faster and the more immediate style is a winner and even if you only have the one wine it's still immediate and thus easier to appreciate.
The reverse would be the case with less immediate wines, having to be coerced, and by the time they are ready you've already moved on or at least made your decision.
I have automobile-analogies on hand, if need be.

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RE: Are new world drinkers easier to please than old wo... - 11/17/2023 6:04:51 AM   
KPB

 

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Status: offline 		I agree with the gold standard remark! To me there is also a sweet tooth effect: some people just love really sweet fruit, others search for subtle, complex aromas and flavors. But you usually don’t get that complexity in sweet, fruity wines.

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