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Expensive but defective wine


The auction should reimburse you.
  12% (4)
(Part 1) The seller should reimburse the auction house.
  6% (2)
(Part 2) You should reimburse the auction house.
  6% (2)
Nobody gets reimbursed. Life is tough.
  75% (24)


Total Votes : 32
(last vote on : 12/21/2023 5:48:09 PM)
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Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 12:32:25 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4659
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		Inspired by a corked 1977 Taylor VP:

You purchase an expensive wine at auction. The bottle looks great, label and cork seem to be perfect. But you open it shortly after purchase and it turns out to be defective (corked, cooked, whatever).

(Part 1). You were the buyer. Should you be reimbursed, and by whom?

(part 2). Then same question, but now you are the seller. You had absolutely no reason to suspect a faulty bottle, just wanted more space or needed a little cash. Not a deliberately malicious sale, just bad luck.

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Post #: 1
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 12:45:09 PM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

Posts: 7851
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
Status: offline 		I think you'll need to make poll accept multiple answers. I answer yes to all 3 as presented.

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Post #: 2
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 12:45:51 PM   
KPB

 

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From: Ithaca, New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisinCowiche

I think you'll need to make poll accept multiple answers. I answer yes to all 3 as presented.


Ok, that should work now. Refresh the page.

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Post #: 3
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 12:46:33 PM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

Posts: 7851
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisinCowiche

I think you'll need to make poll accept multiple answers. I answer yes to all 3 as presented.


Ok, that should work now. Refresh the page.

Yep, thanks!

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Post #: 4
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 12:49:53 PM   
MB1991

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2023
Status: offline 		Per my dad who grew up in Germany, many of the wine merchant he knew from back in the day hated selling in the US because of this whole reimbursement issue. In Germany (Based on info from him) there is no such thing as being reimbursed for a corked bottle. It's a known fact that wine can be corked, that's a risk you take when you buy wine. Assuming there isn't intentional maliciousness (such as trying to sell a bottle you knew sat in the hot sun for a long time), it's nobody's fault and just bad luck.

Either way, someone should have insurance for this reason I assume that could cover the loss.

< Message edited by MB1991 -- 12/14/2023 12:50:27 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 12:56:31 PM   
grafstrb

 

Posts: 8837
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: LAla land
Status: offline 		I can't imagine any legit auction house not having T&C that cover this exact situation. So, my answer is, "Whatever the T&C say."

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Post #: 6
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 3:52:21 PM   
Wine Grove

 

Posts: 714
Joined: 11/9/2017
From: San Clemente, CA
Status: offline 		As a somewhat frequent Auction buyer (not seller), my position going in to it is that there is no guaranty on the provenance and I expect I could get a corked or poorly kept bottle. Buyer beware.

That being said, over the years I have bought less aged wines, not shopping for trophy winese, but for deals on more recent vintages of good quality producers that would not have been stored for very long in the first place.

For example, I recently bought 3 bottles of 2020 Pride cabernet sauvignon reserve. Or last year I scored on some 2017 shafer bottles.

As of today December 2023, I won't buy anything at auction with a vintage date older than 2016 or 2017, but really shopping like 2018-2020 at auction now.

(in reply to grafstrb)
Post #: 7
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 4:23:13 PM   
ImUrHuckleberry

 

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Joined: 11/17/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wine Grove

As a somewhat frequent Auction buyer (not seller), my position going in to it is that there is no guaranty on the provenance and I expect I could get a corked or poorly kept bottle. Buyer beware.

That being said, over the years I have bought less aged wines, not shopping for trophy winese, but for deals on more recent vintages of good quality producers that would not have been stored for very long in the first place.

For example, I recently bought 3 bottles of 2020 Pride cabernet sauvignon reserve. Or last year I scored on some 2017 shafer bottles.

As of today December 2023, I won't buy anything at auction with a vintage date older than 2016 or 2017, but really shopping like 2018-2020 at auction now.



Did you get a lot of damaged old wines? Is that why you are only buying newer vintages now?

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Post #: 8
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 5:13:27 PM   
BenG

 

Posts: 847
Joined: 5/5/2009
From: Australian in Idaho
Status: offline 		I don't know if they still do this but Langtons, an auction house in Australia, has come to the seller's cellar to inspect it before taking on a big shipment. They have a better reputation than other auction houses and will on occasion give a replacement or refund. However, they also say Buyer Beware so it is expected that there will be some dud bottles due to aging poorly.

I've been happy with the majority of my auction purchases. Definitely not 100% but somewhere between 70 and 90%. I tend to only buy wines at auction if I can get them at 80% or less than what I would buy retail.

(in reply to ImUrHuckleberry)
Post #: 9
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 7:28:25 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4659
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		I've ended up with some very dubious lots -- a whole 12 bottle case of VP that was cooked (and not in transport!), and another that reeked of TCA (somehow the labels were corked... the wine was mostly good). But I've never gone as far as to demand money back (I do stop frequenting that site, though!)

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(in reply to BenG)
Post #: 10
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 7:28:56 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4659
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		(Plus, of course, this bottle!)

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Post #: 11
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/14/2023 9:05:47 PM   
jmcmchi

 

Posts: 3220
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline 		I see a lot of retailers saying something on the lines of “10 years + has no guarantee of anything “- fair enough I suppose

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Post #: 12
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 4:03:59 AM   
Echinosum

 

Posts: 604
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline 		I don't think you can/should be able to claim for a wine being corked, because it is - mostly - a bottle by bottle risk. But what about more pervasive wine faults that would affect a whole barrel, or the whole production of that wine?

I recently had a half case of wine which all suffered from terrible mousy taint, they were undrinkable. It evidently doesn't affect all bottles of that wine, because there are 31 tasting notes on CT for that wine, and no one else had a flawed bottle. And in fact I had two half-cases, and the other one was fine. Some wines they "equalise" them by mixing it all up in a large tank when bottling. Others evidently are bottled barrel by barrel, or in multiple batches, and I can only think that is what happened here.

Being corked can sometimes be more pervasive. I have a case of Climens 1995, and a lot of the bottles are perceptible corked, maybe a third, and this time it is not just me finding that. I suspect a barrel problem rather than individual corks. But it is odd how it varies by bottle. Even those where I can't say it's corked, it's still very disappointing for a wine of that reputation in what is supposedly the 2nd or 3rd best year of the 90s. Apparently that can be the result of a low level of TCA. Would this be a case for compensation? Or should people look at the publicly available tasting notes for the wine and buy knowing that it is its record?

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Post #: 13
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 5:36:31 AM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4659
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		I agree with echinosum! Systematic issues across a whole vintage, like smoke taint or mousiness, should be the responsibility of the winery, and anyone who then passed the wine along shares that responsibility.

< Message edited by KPB -- 12/15/2023 5:37:08 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 6:22:53 AM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4659
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		Oh, and I also agree that if the whole case is compromised this is way worse than bad luck with one bottle.

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The Professor of Brettology

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Post #: 15
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 7:09:33 AM   
fingers

 

Posts: 8250
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline 		What other business sells a defective product and gets let off the hook? It may not be practical to replace or refund, but I don't see how responsibility shifts to the buyer even with a "buyer beware" warning.

(in reply to KPB)
Post #: 16
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 8:17:04 AM   
MB1991

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2023
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

What other business sells a defective product and gets let off the hook? It may not be practical to replace or refund, but I don't see how responsibility shifts to the buyer even with a "buyer beware" warning.


What business that sells perishables doesn't follow this? Even products that sell non-perishables have a time frame on warranty, very rarely do you get a lifetime guarantee & replacement.

(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 17
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 8:32:52 AM   
fingers

 

Posts: 8250
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline 		I just get the impression that wine gets a free pass more often than other consumables, which again, is probably a matter of practicality and convenience, rather than a winemaker's unwillingness to compensate for a corked bottle.

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Post #: 18
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 9:00:23 AM   
jmcmchi

 

Posts: 3220
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

I just get the impression that wine gets a free pass more often than other consumables, which again, is probably a matter of practicality and convenience, rather than a winemaker's unwillingness to compensate for a corked bottle.



And also a matter of consumer ignorance - the majority of people don’t recognize corked wine for what it is and just end up “I don’t like wine/ see what’s so special “

But specifically, and a bit of thread drift, TCA is a fault that can be at least minimized, if not prevented, by producer choice (of closure) and proper cellar management so I do expect (and nearly always get) a refund/replacement on a corked bottle……



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Post #: 19
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 9:03:08 AM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4659
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		The trouble with auction wines is that we rarely really know the history of a bottle -- perhaps one in ten says "purchased directly from the winery, then held in a temperature-controlled cellar". More often, they just say nothing at all about where the bottle might have travelled before reaching the auction.

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Post #: 20
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 9:09:31 AM   
fingers

 

Posts: 8250
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline 		+1 John

edit: Another factor is the multi-tier retail system. Direct from a winery, I would expect refund/replacement since they made the wine. The wine store, yeah they'll do it for good PR, but they're eating that cost as I'm sure they won't pursue the wholesaler who then pursues the distributor who then goes after the winery... prolly not.



< Message edited by fingers -- 12/15/2023 12:50:26 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 2:18:55 PM   
wadcorp

 

Posts: 9336
Joined: 10/29/2008
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		From a retailer or direct from a winery? Get a refund.

From an auction house? Well, I think that is a case of "Buyer Beware".

Mentioned in an earlier thread that I'm too lazy to look up: I bought a 6-pack of Becker Viognier when down in Houston one year. A great warm-weather, inexpensive white that was terrific on the porch in summer.

Brought it back to KC. The first bottle we opened was cooked (not corked) or something similar. Way off-tasting compared to the earlier bottles we had over the years. Opened a second: same thing. Opened a third: same thing.

I contacted Becker about it, and they said to ship the remaining three bottles back & they would check them out.

Sent the wine back, and about a week later they contacted me: we find nothing wrong with the wines.

They did not offer to replace the wines or pay for the shipping. In fact, they would never reply to any of my subsequent inquiries.

So the result is I've never bought another bottle from them. And I let everyone know the experience I've had with them.

.

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Post #: 22
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 2:21:51 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4659
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		So at what point does it shift from being really bad luck to malicious?

I once received 12 bottles of 1985 Graham VP that came in a moldy carton and had labels reeking of TCA. A number actually were corked. And I once bought a case of 2005 Chateau des Tours Vacqueyras and every single bottle was fizzy and/or spoiled. Even further back I had a bunch of bottles of Fever GC Chablis that turned out to contain a slightly soapy dilute bleach solution (probably the rinse used to disinfect before the bottles would normally have been filled with wine). And two vineyards!

To me, these all were cases showing some degree of ineptitude or outright malice by the sellers (none got more business from me). But who is the seller, really? The fizzy wine must have been too warm in transport. Everyone denied it was their step when it happened. The Chablis presumably could only have been the fault of the producer. That retailer flatly refused to do anything.

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Post #: 23
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/15/2023 4:26:36 PM   
BenG

 

Posts: 847
Joined: 5/5/2009
From: Australian in Idaho
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

So at what point does it shift from being really bad luck to malicious?

I once received 12 bottles of 1985 Graham VP that came in a moldy carton and had labels reeking of TCA. A number actually were corked.

Whether through malice or negligence, the end result is the same. If they don't replace it, the seller doesn't get any more of my business. Your case looked to be particularly egregious.

If I start buying from a new seller, I'll start with a small order to see if their wines are any good, then gradually build up to bigger orders. With auction houses, I might start with a few different small lots because even the best houses may end up passing on the odd dodgy lot.

< Message edited by BenG -- 12/15/2023 4:27:28 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Expensive but defective wine - 12/16/2023 12:25:32 PM   
recotte

 

Posts: 6873
Joined: 1/19/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wadcorp

From a retailer or direct from a winery? Get a refund.

From an auction house? Well, I think that is a case of "Buyer Beware".

.


I generally agree with this. As the poll was positioned as an auction scenario, I chose the "life is tough" answer. I've never seen an auction where they didn't make clear that you're rolling the dice, and I accept that as part of my calculation into whether the wine in question is "worth it."

Quite some time ago, I had purchased a 375ml of Chateau Palmer from a local very reputable retailer, intended for baby killing to see if I wanted to purchase more, so opened very soon after purchase. It was very clearly cooked. I brought the partially consumed bottle back, and they replaced it with another. Which turned out to also be very clearly cooked. What was obvious to me was that this particular case/shipment had been exposed to some extreme and/or extended heat, and was not fit to be sold. After the second cooked bottle, the store refunded my money, but when I checked their online inventory, it was also clear that they weren't pulling it from their shelves. I've not purchased from them since. *My* inventory clearly shows that boycotting them has in no way hampered my acquisitions.

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Post #: 25
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