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Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking frame... - 12/26/2023 10:07:13 AM

Eduardo787

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Is it me or why many people consider very old wine better than when its in its optimal window to be drank ? Let me explain. I see a lot of photos in Facebook people drinking lets say a Bordeaux from 82 or a Napa cab from 79 and telling how delicious they were. We are not talking first growths or hyper cult Napas, I am talking about any common good wine ( lets say a Giscours or a Heitz). Everyone seems to be excited to drink a 40+ year old wine but me personally with my VERY limited experience I seem not to enjoy very old wines. Then you read comments and some are extremely happy with their wine but others comment that the wine fruit is gone and that 10 years ago was in its prime.

We have discussed similar issues before, but, all of you that have very old vintages ...do you really enjoy them more than when the wine was 20 years old instead of 40? We all salivate when we see a picture when someone is drinking a 1970 Bdx, but, is it really more delicious than lets say a 2005 today ( or choose any other vintage post 1990) ?

I know that my question might seem from a beginer , but my experience in very old wines is extremely limited to maybe less than a dozen wines in my life and everytime I drink them I am not that all excited. Seems that wine ages as we humans do and they also expire !!!

For example I have the Vina Tondonia 2010s that are now beutiful and might age for a few more years, but I was looking ata guy that opened a 1977 Tondonia and I just cant imagine how a wine that is already VERY old world and not fruit foreward might taste with so much age on it.

Most of my 2003,05,08,09,10,15,16,18, and 20 Bordeaux I do not plan to open them in 30 or 40 years, I think that 15-25 years are the sweet spot and not because you open a 1970 Bdx might be better than a 90s Bdx. My complaint here is that we are all in awe with very old vintages, but I am just not sure if we should be or feel that are past peak.

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/26/2023 10:33:36 AM

ChrisinCowiche

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Good subject, amigo! I've had very limited experience with aged (+40 years) wines, and what I've had have not been what I considered "delicious" but rather somewhat of a curiosity. Interesting to contemplate what is remaining, acid? flavors? dust? but not even really enjoyable to drink as a wine. Maybe I am not drinking the best ones or such very limited experience, who knows. I generally think the "old" wine fascination is more about the time factor than the actual wine enjoyment, but that is just me, too.

I have had many wines in the 20-30 year range that I thought were spectacular, and my cellar now is getting some bottles entering that window. CT's "when to drink" now lists 300+ bottles in that category, but I'm not worrying about that other than a few that may be over the hill. I need to look closer at the list, but I strongly suspect many of my "older" bottles are fine and will continue to improve for another decade.

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/26/2023 11:45:08 AM

recotte

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I think this is extremely palate-dependent. There are those here, including myself, that genuinely enjoy the aromas and flavors that older wines take on and can only be found in old wines that have had decades in the bottle. I don't necessarily want that with every single wine I drink, but when I want it, I want it, and it scratches an itch. I doubt I'd use the descriptor of "delicious," which makes me think of bigger, more hedonistic younger wines (which, to be clear, I also enjoy, but also not for every wine I open), but it goes beyond intellectual curiosity, and definitely is real enjoyment for me.

Are they "better" than they were when they were younger? That's a multi-part answer, with a big "depends" in there. If you don't like those older notes on the nose and palate, well, the answer is almost certainly going to be "no." Drink it younger! Enjoy!

Setting personal preferences aside, then it's a question of the wine itself and its vinification. There are plenty of wines that are just not going to drink well young; too tannic, too oaky, too acidic, too etc. to enjoy until they have a lot of bottle time, and on the flip side, there are oceans of wine that don't have the stuffing to age past 5, 10, 20 years without being just completely dead and gone. Or for the wines that do have the stuff to go the distance, they may have multiple "peak" drinking windows at different stages of their evolution, each providing its own charms (which is a great reason to buy in quantity, so you can experience the evolution): a peak in its youth, when fruit is at the fore; another peak when there's still some fruit, but some interesting tertiary development, then a third peak when the fruit is gone, but those tertiary notes are in their glory, before the whole thing just fades away.

So, I'll double down on "palate-dependent," and "it depends." At the end of the day, there's a reason why there's more than one kind of wine available: there's something for everyone, and on any given day, what we want or are enjoying may be different.

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/26/2023 1:29:20 PM

ericindc

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I would agree its palate dependent. I'm on the extreme end. I pretty much only like old red wines. Whites, I enjoy young. But I simply don't enjoy most red wines that are still primary. Frankly, I didnt even like red wines until I tasted an older wine that had some mature notes. That was my ah-ha moment.

That's the reason I collect wine. To have flavors that I can't find in some $10 plonk.

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Just waiting for my Grand Cru to age.

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/26/2023 2:46:53 PM

KPB

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I’ve had some wonderful wines, and some of them were old. But keeping great wines a long time doesn’t guarantee anything, and old wines are often bottle by bottle, so you have one you love but them can’t repeat the thrill. Buying a high ranked old bottle often fails for this reason.

All things considered, I don’t make much effort to source or hold bottles that would be really old when consumed. It isn’t worth the hassle!

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/26/2023 3:08:40 PM

ericindc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

I’ve had some wonderful wines, and some of them were old. But keeping great wines a long time doesn’t guarantee anything, and old wines are often bottle by bottle, so you have one you love but them can’t repeat the thrill. Buying a high ranked old bottle often fails for this reason.

All things considered, I don’t make much effort to source or hold bottles that would be really old when consumed. It isn’t worth the hassle!

To say I disagree with this is an understatement. The thrill of anticipating how an older bottle with show is what its about. Will it show good, great, or be a disappointment? That's interesting to me. If you know exactly what you are going to get, heck just drink a soda. Always know what you'll get.

Also, if you like young wines, why buy expensive stuff that's supposed to age? Complete waste of money.

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/26/2023 4:42:52 PM

DoubleD1969

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I’m with Eric on this. I never got the point of buying an expensive wine and drinking it within 5-7 years versus buying a well-made $50 bottle. I see people’s notes on current vintages of Macdonald or Scarecrow - sounding very similar to professional reviews and notes on many other bottles at a fraction of the cost.

There are very few bottles that can age beautifully for 30+ years. When you find them at a great price and have the patience to not touch them, it’s gratifying on many levels. Tannins have smoothed out. Tertiary aromas mixed with fruit in different guises - dried, fresh, baked, etc. Drinking a $500 bottle that you bought for $50. Sharing the bottle with like-minded folks. Or just opening it because you can.

< Message edited by DoubleD1969 -- 12/26/2023 4:43:41 PM >

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/26/2023 5:00:21 PM

recotte

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc

The thrill of anticipating how an older bottle with show is what its about. Will it show good, great, or be a disappointment? That's interesting to me.

This speaks to me. I have a penchant for things that take a long time and have uncertain outcomes (did I just describe parenting???) across my various hobbies, and there is certainly an element of that in my wine enjoyment.

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/27/2023 6:25:01 AM

KPB

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Guys, he asked about keeping or sourcing wines 40+ years. Obviously I keep bottles for fifteen or twenty, and so does Eduardo. Not his question!

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/27/2023 7:37:12 AM

DoubleD1969

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CT tradition to go off on tangents. Lol

To answer the question about enjoying wines at 20- versus the 40-yr mark, I can think specifically of 3 wines that I would enjoy, have enjoyed, or probably enjoy at the 40 yr mark:
2005 Lynch Bages
1991 Diamond Creek Volcanic Hill
1983 Grahams VP

I’m sure there are hundreds more. At the same token, there are hundreds of thousands where that would be not the case.

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/27/2023 8:38:08 AM

KPB

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Ah, Graham 1983 VP! Definitely. 1985 is even better :-)

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/27/2023 9:22:15 AM

bacchus

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if you want to drink old stuff, come to my eightieth birthday party in october of 2024.

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/27/2023 1:32:48 PM

DoubleD1969

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bacchus

if you want to drink old stuff, come to my eightieth birthday party in october of 2024.

Happy to celebrate your 80th with you bacchus. Hoping the stars align! Old wines, young wines ... as long as they're good wines. lol

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/27/2023 2:00:54 PM

DoubleD1969

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787
We have discussed similar issues before, but, all of you that have very old vintages ...do you really enjoy them more than when the wine was 20 years old instead of 40? We all salivate when we see a picture when someone is drinking a 1970 Bdx, but, is it really more delicious than lets say a 2005 today ( or choose any other vintage post 1990) ?

As others have noted, one's palate determines one's excitement level towards a 40-yr old wine. Not all regions can produce wine that can age beautifully over those years. Not all producers from the same region can make those types of wines either. And not everyone who likes old wines like all old wines.

Another point is that a 40-yr old wine that is drinking beautifully is not very common. It may be drinkable, but I don't think I'd be uber excited about it. I am always excited though when I can drink a 40-yr old wine because it adds to the experience database - region, producer, vintage.

Lastly, I think the better question is whether one prefers to drink a bottle with 10-15 years on it versus one that is 25-30 years. My experience is that the latter is the sweet spot for a lot of the collectible wines. 40 years is pushing the envelope.

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/29/2023 8:30:30 PM

hankj

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I'm with you Eduardo.

Everyone has a different palate, but some significant part of people with "very old wine palates" are putting on a facade of high level sophistication. I also agree that there are reasonable age windows that create maximum general pleasure out of wines. I drink for pleasure, nit for "interesting" or "historic" or "rare." So for me fully-integrated, reasonably mellowed tannins and a kiss of emerging tertiary aromas is the ideal window.

There are some genuine very old wine lovers, but the genuine are really quite rare individuals. I don't at all see the very old wine palate as knowing better or more sophisticated, rather quirky and a bit of a freak flag. Which is fine if that's really you!

< Message edited by hankj -- 12/29/2023 8:47:15 PM >

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/29/2023 8:34:01 PM

hankj

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Also! So many collectors, as opposed to cellar-drinkers, end up with a ton of very old wines that they cannot bear to see as beyond peak. Too painful to admit that one has bought a thousand bottles for tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in the name.of optimal aging and let them go to waste by hording not drinking. Then of course these folks decide they love them some very old bottles ....

Let me say too that i'm on this road to some extent - at the rate I'm consuming my cellar wines I will likely end up with more than 100 bottles beyond peak - maybe I'll learn to love them too ....

< Message edited by hankj -- 12/29/2023 8:39:32 PM >

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/30/2023 1:10:11 AM

daviladc

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Do I like "old" wine? Yes.

Do I like "young" wine? Yes.

But to Eduardo's point, when it comes to Burgundy, I like them more "middle aged" with a touch more fruit.

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/30/2023 7:58:16 AM

Echinosum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787
For example I have the Vina Tondonia 2010s that are now beutiful and might age for a few more years, but I was looking ata guy that opened a 1977 Tondonia and I just cant imagine how a wine that is already VERY old world and not fruit foreward might taste with so much age on it.

Tondonia has its own particular features. It is only released at about 10-12 years old. So 2010 is young to be drinking Tondonia. It is typically very drinkable and attractive on release. But typically then it closes up a bit in its mid-teens, getting less attractive, until it peaks somewhere in its 20s. So you might soon get the impression your 2010 is starting to go downhill. But it's often a dumb patch, the true peak coming rather later.

But clearly some people value it for its ability to be kept for 40, 50, even 60 years. Like you I've never experienced what that would taste like. I wouldn't even risk it.

I don't have a yen to keep red wines for a very long time. Almost always I drink them up by 30, and much less in most cases. There's not much that peaks later than 25, and mostly I try to avoid buying stuff I have to wait that long for. A lot of my older bottles that I had in the past have been out of condition, typically due to inadequate corks. My 1990 northern Rhones, including a case of La Chapelle, I finally drank up at 30, for example. The only (red) wine I have kept a little longer is a 1988 Barolo that I still have one last bottle of. Curiously it is the wine that has discouraged me from buying any more Barolo, because I had to wait so long for it.

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/30/2023 9:25:10 AM

DoubleD1969

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daviladc

Do I like "old" wine? Yes.

Do I like "young" wine? Yes.

But to Eduardo's point, when it comes to Burgundy, I like them more "middle aged" with a touch more fruit.

The question was if you like old wines, do you like them better at the 20-yr mark or at or after 40 years. 🤦‍♂️

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RE: Drinking window, optimal drinking, past drinking fr... - 12/31/2023 1:01:39 PM

KPB

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Drinking old wines from the cellars of older wine-loving friends is a good way to experience the heights aged wines can reach.

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