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Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 7:32:42 AM   
SAF OAK LODGE

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/23/2024
Status: offline 		Good evening. My name is Stephen, and I have just retired. I recently purchased, installed, and established a spiral cellar in my home with an 800-bottle capacity. I have 56 bottles of red wine that my wife and I enjoy—a mix of South African, French, Italian and Argentina wines. We are also regular white wine, sparkling wine, champagne and rose wine drinkers but have not collected any. We regularly buy, refrigerate, and then drink these wine types in the same month/week. I would most appreciate any recommended steps for me to take to fill this- my very first cellar - with a good mix of wines [by grape type, region and vintage.] Thank you. Please help.

< Message edited by SAF OAK LODGE -- 2/24/2024 7:38:21 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 7:45:55 AM   
Paul852

 

Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/27/2018
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline 		Welcome to the forum!

My first questions would be: why did you install an 800 bottle cellar? How much wine do you drink? Are you looking to buy and age wine for future consumption (if so, how many years ahead are you planning)? Or are you looking to buy wine as an investment for future sale? Or are you simply looking to have a bigger selection of wines available for immediate consumption?

< Message edited by Paul852 -- 2/24/2024 7:52:52 AM >

(in reply to SAF OAK LODGE)
Post #: 2
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 8:02:28 AM   
DoubleD1969

 

Posts: 3599
Joined: 8/19/2008
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		Good questions from Paul.

In addition:
6) Where are you located?
7) What’s your budget per bottle?
8) Italy and France are pretty big and diverse wine regions? Can you be more specific?
9) What regions would you like to explore further?
10) On the wines you’ve had so far, what would be your Top 3?

(in reply to Paul852)
Post #: 3
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 8:30:36 AM   
Hollowine

 

Posts: 7251
Joined: 7/25/2008
From: Hood River, OR
Status: offline 		Welcome Stephen. I'd add to the prior comments/questions that I noticed you mention you just retired. As I start to reach that same Event Horizon, I am purchasing fewer wines that NEED age to show well (young Port, current vintage Bordeaux, etc.) and instead watching for strategic purchases of older vintages at fair prices. So factoring that in with the other questions will help you ponder why you built a cellar?

Curious, is this one of the spiral stair cellars that is often under a trap door in the middle of a room? If you can post pictures, I'm sure many of us would love to see it.

(in reply to DoubleD1969)
Post #: 4
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 9:00:23 AM   
Paul852

 

Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/27/2018
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline 		These days we can't assume how old someone is when they retire! I sort of retired when I was 46, which would have still given me quite a long horizon for buying wine. But I agree if you're 60+ then it doesn't seem to make much sense to buy EP top end Bordeaux for your own consumption.

Being 61 and having not started a cellar 15 years ago, I very much buy for short-term consumption.

(in reply to Hollowine)
Post #: 5
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 9:02:01 AM   
eyewino

 

Posts: 370
Joined: 8/29/2018
From: Northern Iowa
Status: offline 		Welcome, Stephen. You will undoubtedly get questions (like the ones already asked) that make you think in directions you had not yet considered. My one piece if advice would be to NOT think as if you have an 800 bottle cellar, but rather a 200 bottle cellar. It will take awhile for you to figure out what you really like, and even that will change with time. And, as everyone here will tell you, you will fill more space in your cellar than you intend to. Start slow because those 800 slots will fill fast.

_____________________________

-Don

In Vino Veritas

(in reply to Hollowine)
Post #: 6
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 9:22:03 AM   
SAF OAK LODGE

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/23/2024
Status: offline 		Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. It is greatly appreciated!
To answer your many questions. Our consumption rate is around 300 bottles per year. Investment wines are off my radar, so I'd be happy with a cellar bottle turnover of, say 3 to 5 years. However, consumption will likely be higher for the next few years as we shall be celebrating my retirement, my son's wedding, and several other post-retirement events. Typically, off the top of my head, our favourite South African wines we like are Boekenhoutskloof The Chocolate Block, Meerlust Merlot's & Rubicons, Oldenburg Rhodium, KWV Roodeberg's, and Rijk's Pinotage Reserve. Regarding Italian favourite reds - Domini Veneti Ripasso della Valpolicella Classico Superiore and Antica Vigna Amarone della Valpolicella are two we love too. French wines we enjoy selected bottles from Rhône, Bordeaux, and Burgundy regions.
In Argentina, we love the Mendoza region most. Regarding white wines - Pouilly-Fumés, Sancerre Sauvignon Blanc, Planeta Chardonnay, and Tiefenbrunner Sauvignon Alto Adige are regular purchases. As you can see, we are pretty untrained in wine and have much to learn and more to enjoy. However, that is the plan. I am only 64 years old and located in the Cotswold region of the UK. Lastly, yes, I have a glass-door cellar from spiralcellars.co.uk. Ever grateful for your comments.

(in reply to Hollowine)
Post #: 7
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 9:44:09 AM   
Paul852

 

Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/27/2018
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline 		OK, so being in the UK you're probably second only to Hong Kong for access to a huge variety of wines (with the possible exception of US wines, but frankly, in my perception, not many people outside the US tend to like them (*yes, huge generalisation, sorry yanks!)). I believe you have ready access to many wine merchants who ship mixed cases, so you don't need to buy individual wines by the (12-bottle) case. One I would recommend from my experience here in Hong Kong is XtraWine - they have an excellent selection of over 10,000 different wines, with particular strengths on Italian wines and grower (i.e. not big name and therefore cheaper) champagnes, and they have a UK site. Here we get shipping for free, but in the UK it's only about GBP1.10/bottle by Fedex in proper packaging and insured (for some reason the shipping is cheapest per bottle for shipments of 18 bottles).

800 bottles is a huge cellar for up to 5 year consumption at 300 bottles per year. We drink more than that and I rarely have more than 50 bottles in my "cellar" (i.e. cupboard).

You seem to have very broad tastes in wine - and this is one of the biggest problems of this "hobby" - there are a thousand times more wines out there than you could taste. It seems that for reds you seem to like richer reds by old world standards ( I know and drink the Chocolate Block and the Meerlust Rubicon). I must admit that as I get older I'm drinking more and more champagne, rosés and whites. Reds have become less common.

< Message edited by Paul852 -- 2/25/2024 6:23:25 AM >

(in reply to SAF OAK LODGE)
Post #: 8
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 9:54:08 AM   
BenG

 

Posts: 846
Joined: 5/5/2009
From: Australian in Idaho
Status: offline 		When it comes to wine/port that needs 20 or more years of cellaring, I would recommend getting some wine at auction. That way you can get some wine that has already been cellared for a while. You can buy single bottles that have reached maturity to see if that's a wine you would like to age. If it's a wine that rises in value as it ages, you could seek out younger vintages of the same wine, preferably in a box of 6 or 12 (so that you can open one bottle to see if they are sound). That way you are getting some financial benefit from your cellar with the added bonus of seeing how a bottle develops over time (if you open one every couple of years).

Auctioned wine will have a small percentage of dud wines, so when you get a sense of how often that happens, you can factor that into the price you are willing to pay. Some auction houses are more reliable than others.

(in reply to SAF OAK LODGE)
Post #: 9
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 1:34:14 PM   
DoubleD1969

 

Posts: 3599
Joined: 8/19/2008
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852

OK, so being in the UK you're probably second only to Hong Kong for access to a huge variety of wines (with the possible exception of US wines, but frankly, in my perception, not many people outside the US tend to like them (*yes, huge generalisation, sorry yanks!)).

Lol You can’t judge US wines based on what gets exported to your markets. Those are plonk wines that you see for USD $15.

I can’t offer anything specific to the OP. Any US recs probably wouldn’t be available in the UK. Has Brexit impacted the ability to bring wines home from the Euro countries?

(in reply to Paul852)
Post #: 10
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 2:53:56 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4654
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		Greer is imported to Belgium these days. For Napa Cabernet, absolutely first rate, reasonable pricing. I’m sure it can cross the channel without much trouble. So I’m going to recommend a case of that. You would order by contacting leuven.be, the web site of the European importer but also a retailer.

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to DoubleD1969)
Post #: 11
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 3:09:44 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4654
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		I should have added : you want vintage 2018 or 2021 for Greer, but 2019 would be fine.

Then I would buy some Rhône reds. Here I might go for a mixed set, maybe three each, of St. Cosme Gigondas, Pegau Chateauneuf de Pape and Marcoux Chateauneuf du Pape. If those are hard to source, Mordorée and Clos Des Papes could replace Pegau, and Charvin could replace Marcoux. Recent vintages have been excellent, no worries there. 2016 is particularly good.

I would go for some Alsace Pinot Gris, too: dry ones from Zind Humbrecht, plus a few vendange tardive bottles for when you need a sweet wine.

Mordorée Tavel would be my pick for rose.

Next I would buy some of the white Spanish wines from Raoul Perez, ideally his Sketch. Remarkable stuff. In fact your access to Spain and Portugal will be exceptional in the UK, and it makes sense to go deep. But three bottles each unless certain of the wine. Italy is less of a steal but you might go for Brunello de Montalcino reds from places like Cerbaiona and Salvioni. Until you know them well, avoid high end Nebbiolo from Barolo and Barbaresco, but do buy Langhe Nebbiolo.

Others will offer better advice on Bordeaux than me, but I do like to have a mixed dozen or so of high end bottles (but these can get expensive). Sometimes guests go nuts for those.



_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to KPB)
Post #: 12
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 4:31:22 PM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

Posts: 7845
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
Status: offline 		I propose we boycott all questions and feedback until SAF OAK LODGE shows us some photos of his cellar!!!

So Moved!

btw, Welcome to the forum SOL

_____________________________

http://www.cellartracker.com/new/user.asp?iUserOverride=102173

(in reply to SAF OAK LODGE)
Post #: 13
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/24/2024 4:34:35 PM   
jmcmchi

 

Posts: 3215
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: online 		Hmm, the Cotswolds.. I’m not sure if Waitrose have any stores nearby. They have a good, eclectic, selection from my recollection

You don’t mention Australia or New Zealand- they have plenty to offer in the UK. For Oz, the Vinorium have a good selection and ship at (what seems to me) reasonable terms. I think their stocks of aged wines have mostly been sold so it will be current releases

For NZ, try the Pinots from Marlborough or Otago, as an alternative to the ubiquitous (but mostly solid) Sauvignon Blanc. Chardonnay from Kumeu River is excellent

Ch Musar from Lebanon would be interesting for you as well

(in reply to KPB)
Post #: 14
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 6:41:51 AM   
Paul852

 

Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/27/2018
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DoubleD1969
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852
OK, so being in the UK you're probably second only to Hong Kong for access to a huge variety of wines (with the possible exception of US wines, but frankly, in my perception, not many people outside the US tend to like them (*yes, huge generalisation, sorry yanks!)).

Lol You can’t judge US wines based on what gets exported to your markets. Those are plonk wines that you see for USD $15.

That really isn't true for Hong Kong - we have quite a lot of US wine available. The biggest problem I have with it (having tried quite a few) is the pricing - US wine that retails here (but also in the US as far as I can tell from WSP) is comparable in quality (to my palate at least) to, say, Italian wines at less than half the price. US$15 buys some really quite drinkable wines from Italy in particular, but also France and Spain. To get to "quite drinkable" for US wines it seems that the threshold for similar quality wines is somewhere around US$45-50.

< Message edited by Paul852 -- 2/25/2024 6:42:37 AM >

(in reply to DoubleD1969)
Post #: 15
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 7:52:02 AM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4654
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		During my six months in Cambridge, I don't really remember Waitrose as being a particularly good source of fine wines. In fact I found it ironic that I was in a city with massive, to-die-for, wine cellars buried under the street for the colleges that make up Cambridge University, and there were almost no reasonable wine stores at all -- I did find one, eventually, with a small but intelligent selection of bottles. People told me to just order from websites in London that offered delivery, but by the time I got this advice that part of my sabbatical was winding down in any case, and I just let it go.

Good selection of bitters and lagers, though. And whiskey -- definitely a great place for single malts.

Waitrose reliably had wines in the 10 pound range, quite drinkable, but not bottles that could conceivably be cellared. At best they might hold for a few months.

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to Paul852)
Post #: 16
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 8:17:02 AM   
SAF OAK LODGE

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/23/2024
Status: offline 		Greetings. I have a quick question. I need help uploading some photos of my spiral cellar. How do I do it?
I cannot paste or upload JPEG files into the forum message page. Thanks.

< Message edited by SAF OAK LODGE -- 2/25/2024 8:23:26 AM >

(in reply to KPB)
Post #: 17
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 9:44:24 AM   
DoubleD1969

 

Posts: 3599
Joined: 8/19/2008
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		…

< Message edited by DoubleD1969 -- 2/25/2024 9:48:42 AM >

(in reply to SAF OAK LODGE)
Post #: 18
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 9:44:41 AM   
SAF OAK LODGE

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/23/2024
Status: offline 		Yes, indeed, we do have a Waitrose nearby. We regularly look out for their buy six and get 25% off deals.

I visited Majestic Wines today in Witney and bought six bottles for my wife and me to try out this week. Bought two bottles of each of JM. Roger Sancerre Rose, Pouilly-Fume J Vincent, Sancerre Blanc Curve Genese. I managed to get a promotional discount of £22 for the six bottles. More or less, buy six and get one free.

My next planned local visit in the Cotswolds area will be to https://www.sheldonswines.com. I will contact the owners and specialist staff about filling my new cellar. Check their website; very expert staff (I think so) are highlighted.

Finally, "thank you" to you all for your helpful comments and pointers.

(in reply to KPB)
Post #: 19
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 9:45:45 AM   
SAF OAK LODGE

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/23/2024
Status: offline 		DoubleD1969
That worked; how did you attach the photo?

< Message edited by SAF OAK LODGE -- 2/25/2024 9:47:24 AM >

(in reply to SAF OAK LODGE)
Post #: 20
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 10:06:30 AM   
DoubleD1969

 

Posts: 3599
Joined: 8/19/2008
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		I sent you a PM with instructions. Click your Profile and then Inbox.

(in reply to SAF OAK LODGE)
Post #: 21
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 10:06:41 AM   
SAF OAK LODGE

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/23/2024
Status: offline 		https://ibb.co/mbxp37W https://ibb.co/2FNNB4V" target="_blank">https://ibb.co/Ypj7z38 https://ibb.co/mbxp37W https://ibb.co/2FNNB4V

The completed cellar picture is not mine; the other two images are of my cellar in construction. Upon completing the renovation of our ground floor at home, I will commission the cellar in June. I love this project, especially since I am a retired mining engineer! Ha ha!

(in reply to SAF OAK LODGE)
Post #: 22
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 10:09:23 AM   
SAF OAK LODGE

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/23/2024
Status: offline 		thanks

(in reply to DoubleD1969)
Post #: 23
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 10:17:28 AM   
DoubleD1969

 

Posts: 3599
Joined: 8/19/2008
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		The links don’t works. It should display the pictures. You can only see the code if you were editing the post or someone was quoting it.

(in reply to SAF OAK LODGE)
Post #: 24
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 10:19:25 AM   
SAF OAK LODGE

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/23/2024
Status: offline 		Hmmmm ... let me revert later. I have to work this out. Thanks again, though.

(in reply to DoubleD1969)
Post #: 25
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 2:43:31 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4654
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		The second and fourth one work. Looks like a circular stair with the wine in niches on the sides?

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to SAF OAK LODGE)
Post #: 26
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 2:52:21 PM   
DoubleD1969

 

Posts: 3599
Joined: 8/19/2008
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		For those wondering how to post pictures:

1. Go here: https://imgbb.com/
2. Click “Start Uploading”. Select your pictures. Make sure your pics are right-side up.
3. Click Upload.
4. Under “Embed Codes”, select “BBCode Full Linked” from the drop down.
5. Click “Copy”
6. Paste in the CT forum thread. Insert your comments above or below.



If you quote this post, you can see the syntax of how oic appears in the post.

< Message edited by DoubleD1969 -- 2/26/2024 7:03:33 PM >

(in reply to KPB)
Post #: 27
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 6:58:21 PM   
Hollowine

 

Posts: 7251
Joined: 7/25/2008
From: Hood River, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SAF OAK LODGE

https://ibb.co/mbxp37W https://ibb.co/2FNNB4V" target="_blank">https://ibb.co/Ypj7z38 https://ibb.co/mbxp37W https://ibb.co/2FNNB4V

The completed cellar picture is not mine; the other two images are of my cellar in construction. Upon completing the renovation of our ground floor at home, I will commission the cellar in June. I love this project, especially since I am a retired mining engineer! Ha ha!


If you click on his link on the end you can see the construction pic, then can scroll down to his user name to see the other pics.

And I agree with you...As a Civil Engineer who now writes software used in mining, that is cool as heck to see them assembling it!!!

(in reply to SAF OAK LODGE)
Post #: 28
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 8:47:46 PM   
Eduardo787

 

Posts: 1566
Joined: 1/14/2020
From: Monterrey Mexico
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852

quote:

ORIGINAL: DoubleD1969
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852
OK, so being in the UK you're probably second only to Hong Kong for access to a huge variety of wines (with the possible exception of US wines, but frankly, in my perception, not many people outside the US tend to like them (*yes, huge generalisation, sorry yanks!)).

Lol You can’t judge US wines based on what gets exported to your markets. Those are plonk wines that you see for USD $15.

That really isn't true for Hong Kong - we have quite a lot of US wine available. The biggest problem I have with it (having tried quite a few) is the pricing - US wine that retails here (but also in the US as far as I can tell from WSP) is comparable in quality (to my palate at least) to, say, Italian wines at less than half the price. US$15 buys some really quite drinkable wines from Italy in particular, but also France and Spain. To get to "quite drinkable" for US wines it seems that the threshold for similar quality wines is somewhere around US$45-50.


Paul please give us an idea about pricing in HK. For example how much is a regular Caymus, Silver Oak, Cakebread, the typical steakhouse wine in the US ?

Over here it is about double the price give or take. If bought in the USA at HEB or any supermarket it might be even 2.5 X over here since at the supermarket I would not be paying shipping. Caymus at Costco Mex would be $125 and in the USA maybe mid $70s, but in the expensive spectrum it can easily double. My friends from Mexico City and Guadalajara envy us from Monterrey since we have the same wines as they do but we get it at half price because we just drive to the border and bring them back. If you have a 1,100 bottle inventory the savings can be more of what a brand new luxury car is worth. I am lucky indeed

_____________________________

I can´t be happier than drinkling wine with my friends

(in reply to Paul852)
Post #: 29
RE: Firstime cellar user seeks help and direction - 2/25/2024 11:22:15 PM   
Paul852

 

Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/27/2018
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787
Paul please give us an idea about pricing in HK. For example how much is a regular Caymus, Silver Oak, Cakebread, the typical steakhouse wine in the US ?

Over here it is about double the price give or take. If bought in the USA at HEB or any supermarket it might be even 2.5 X over here since at the supermarket I would not be paying shipping. Caymus at Costco Mex would be $125 and in the USA maybe mid $70s, but in the expensive spectrum it can easily double. My friends from Mexico City and Guadalajara envy us from Monterrey since we have the same wines as they do but we get it at half price because we just drive to the border and bring them back. If you have a 1,100 bottle inventory the savings can be more of what a brand new luxury car is worth. I am lucky indeed

I'm struggling to give you specific numbers here, because it seems that "Caymus" can mean many things. Do you mean the Napa Valley Cab, or the California Cab, or what?

And Wine-Searcher Pro gives me 8 different Silver Oak Cab Sauvs to choose from (Napa, Alexander Valley, Bonnie's Vineyard, etc), and at least 3 different Cakebread Napa Cab Sauvs.

It seems that you need to be very specific.

(in reply to Eduardo787)
Post #: 30
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