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Truly Historic Wines - 10/19/2009 4:12:43 PM

VinoIsKeeno

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I'm curious about the truly historic wines/vintages ever known. I'm not necessarily asking about those from our recent past (though that may be all that is known), but those within our recorded history, if there is such a record. Since wine making has been around at least a couple thousand years, I'm asking if anyone knows about written documents of historical tasting notes or opinions existing anywhere which might identify forgotten great wines, vintages & regions.

Figuring the greater wines were assessable to royalty and aristocrats, they would also be likely to have education, writing instruments and lineage which might stand the test of time.

So, is it possible to know if the 1065 Crab Nebula Bordeaux was legendary? Or the 51 A.D. Chianti-Augustus was stocked as the empire's formal drink?

I know this is a bit far fetched, but might be interesting to know.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/19/2009 4:21:06 PM

grafstrb

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According to RP, the ‘07 vintage in CdP is the best vintage ever, in any viticultural area ... ever. End of discussion.

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Terroir is not a flavor.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/19/2009 4:37:45 PM

jamjo

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You can look up the greatest vintages. In France there was a pre and post phylloxera period. The phylloxera louse wiped out about 90% of vine stock around 1863.They grafted American root stock which was resistant. A great pre phylloxera vintage is 1854. People tended to drink young wine before the 18th century. The idea of collecting and rating vintages is a 20th century concept.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/19/2009 4:40:24 PM

jamjo

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grafstrb didn't we hear that about the 05.... beginning of discussion.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/19/2009 4:41:37 PM

grafstrb

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moreso from WS than RP. but RP has literally said what I quoted above ... can somebody say hy-per-bo-le!

edit: in fairness, i did not quote above. sorry 'bout that. he really did say that. let me look through my recent PC emails, and I'll find the exact quote.

< Message edited by grafstrb -- 10/19/2009 4:42:38 PM >

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Terroir is not a flavor.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/19/2009 4:43:55 PM

jamjo

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What effect will RP's words have on price. Nuf said.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/19/2009 4:45:18 PM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jamjo

What effect will RP's words have on price.

Sadly, a lot.

_____________________________

Terroir is not a flavor.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/19/2009 4:48:53 PM

jamjo

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First growth Bdrx numbers are insane to begin with. 05 was insulting and 07 will be send me your first born.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/19/2009 4:57:09 PM

grafstrb

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we're still talkin' CdP, right? Many of the bigger-name CdP's are starting to get too pricey for me. And it's happening, in no small part, because so many recent vintages have been hailed as "the best ever." seriously, i'm ready for some "average" vintages.

_____________________________

Terroir is not a flavor.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/19/2009 5:04:31 PM

jamjo

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The fun is to find third and forth growth at a fair price. I enjoy the challenge.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/19/2009 6:39:59 PM

Paul S

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Looks like 2009 will be another crazy year in France. I've decided to jump out of the "vintage of the century" bandwagon. They just come around too often for me or my wallet to keep up.

There had been one "must-buy" region in almost every year since the turn of the millennium:

2000: Bordeaux, CDP
2001: Germany, Spain in general, Piedmont, Tuscany, CDP, Northern Rhone
2002: Burgundy, Barossa
2003: Everywhere or nowhere depending on how you like your wines
2004: Piedmont, Tuscany, some parts of Spain, most of Australia
2005: Bordeaux, Burgundy, CDP, Germany, some parts of Australia
2006: Austria, CDP, most of Australia
2007: CDP, Germany
2008: Thank goodness for a little breather here - although RP would have us believe that Bordeaux made excellent wines
2009: madness begins again.... Bordeaux and Burgundy at least

< Message edited by Paul S -- 10/19/2009 6:47:54 PM >

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/23/2009 12:43:37 PM

pjaines

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Paul S - a very interesting post that because it brings home to you that there will always be an opportunity to buy great wine from somewhere in the world.

And then there is always 2010, 2011 etc

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/24/2009 3:22:42 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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Why no American Wine of the Century?
Are they that consistent that no year outdoes another?
Parker's quoted an nauseum on the rest of the world (inc. places he doesn't actually taste the wine himself e.g. Australia),
but I see little on USA, make that all the America's
Probably my ignorance, but would like to see more on such a big wine producing area.
L.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/24/2009 7:43:08 AM

drycab

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Well, Colonel, as you know, the wines of the USA are all crap! Therefore RP doesn't need to comment! Just look at the mix in my cellar!

(tongue firmly planted in cheek)

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/24/2009 10:00:01 AM

pjaines

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Serious question - how consistent are the conditions in California for wine growing? I lived in San Fransisco for a year and visited many times but that was before I was into wine so didn't pay much attention to it. I presume up and down the coast the conditions are fairly stable, but then that is based on the assumption that the sun always shines in CA

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/24/2009 8:15:19 PM

tourette

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

Serious question - how consistent are the conditions in California for wine growing? I lived in San Fransisco for a year and visited many times but that was before I was into wine so didn't pay much attention to it. I presume up and down the coast the conditions are fairly stable, but then that is based on the assumption that the sun always shines in CA

From my somewhat uneducated perspective, California is more consistent than other wine regions of the world, but not without its poor and great years. 2003 had rain and hail during harvest, and some/most vineyards were effected negatively. 2008 had smoke damage from nearby forest fires at certain properties where the wine wasn't even finished or it was declassified, though most made it unscathed. 2005 was hailed as a hallmark year for Napa, I believe.

Anyway, others can probably comment more, but California certainly has its ups and downs, though mostly seems to be around what the weather is like during harvest than anything.

Jeff

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/25/2009 3:38:10 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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I guess a companion question is - how easy it it to buy older vintages of good Cal. wines?
From my few visits to wine shops in US it seems that ypou f=too suffer from premature consumption.
This of course cuts down the opportunity for truly historic wines.
L.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/25/2009 4:40:05 AM

Khamen

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_vintages

1811 was the famous one.

K

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/25/2009 5:50:22 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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1815 wasn't so good for France -
http://www.britishbattles.com/waterloo/waterloo-june-1815.htm
L.

PS My Dad was a 7th Hussar (although not at Waterloo

)

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/25/2009 7:48:02 AM

pjaines

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Colonel - you have exceeded even the stratospheric levels we all hold you in.

Is your blood blue? Or maybe it is red with a hint of cedar and dark fruits?

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/25/2009 8:10:36 AM

Hawk

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As to the historic 2007 Southern Rhones, can someone explain to me the reason that CdP consistently has higher scores (from the professionals) than neighboring areas. Consequently, the CdP's are trading at much higher prices even from the same producers. One example is the Beaucastel, their CdP usually is 3 or 4 times the price of the Coudoulet, but both are usually terrific wines.

The 2007's that I've had so far (Cote du Rhone, Villages & Gigondas) have been very good to excellent. I put up a couple of CdP, so I guess I'm buying into the hype.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/25/2009 6:03:57 PM

Paul S

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Conventional wisdom is that CdP has better terroir than the other villages in the area (e.g. Sablet, Gigondas, Vacqueyras etc). It is true from my experience that CdP wines are usually (as in most of the time, but not always) better than those of the other villages when in the hands of capable makers. The wines are finer boned, less rustic and seem to age far more elegantly.

Being in the Southern Rhone, you cannot really tell great terroir differences from a casual survey of the land. You do get more galet (large round river stone) vineyards in general in CdP than other villages, but there are also some really great CdP wines being made from vineyards that share the same sandy soil as the other villages - Vieux Telegraphe's La Crau and most of Domaine Pegau's holdings are a fine example.

My guesses? Galets aside, there is probably a higher clay content in general in some other villages I think, leading to slightly stodgier wines, but this is certainly not true for many vineyards. That probabl;y contributes, but I think another probably greater factor is that CdP itself a quite a large appelation with many different sub-climates and soil types, but the one thing in general for most of the vineyards is that they have a favourable exposition to the all important Mistral (north wind) that cools the grapes and keeps the place dry. Not all vineyards are so favourably sited in some of the other villages.

Otherwise, you might also consider that CdP has historically been far more important because the 6 popes who were based in Avignon had their summer retreat in the town (probably because of the cooling mistral), and therefore drank more wines from there than the surroundings - thus leading to their popularity and fame. Once the monks who tended the vines upped and left, the wines of the area remained famous. Higher prices, higher visibility leading to vignerons being able to treat their vineyards better and winemakers being able to invest more in their wines - another possible factor?

One last factor to consider is the Parker effect in recent years. He loves CdP, markets them like crazy (intentionally or not) through tons of high scores, leading to lots more money flowing in to the top domaines there, leading to greater ability to invest in good winemaking perhaps?

These are just my random thoughts - would welcome any corrections, add-ons or other comments. Very interesting question this.

< Message edited by Paul S -- 10/25/2009 6:12:12 PM >

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/26/2009 9:38:45 AM

Hawk

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Paul,

Thanks so much for the informative summary. I think I'll just have to go to the Rhone and check out the terroir myself.

No doubt the Parker effect drives both scores and prices, but it still seems CdP is rated substantially higher than their neighbors.

In any event, great CdP seems to be a bargain when compared to the prices of 1st Cru Bordeaux.

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RE: Truly Historic Wines - 10/28/2009 8:15:09 PM

VinoIsKeeno

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Interesting comments, though I guess I was hoping someone might know beyond the 1800's. Its kind of a speciality question that perhaps only a historian with an attraction to wine might have explored. I just knew something had to be on record from the Renaissance, or at the very least, Jefferson or Franklin might have some writings somewhere.

With all the talk of the greatest vintages ever, you just know winemakers from centuries past might also take issue with the recent proclamations. Maybe even an ancient Greek or two.

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Post #: 24