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Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 4:43:45 AM

Khamen

Posts: 5543
Joined: 3/31/2009
From: near Stonehenge, UK
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Ok this is very boring, but just off to the bottle bank and after nearly having a hernia lifting an empty Almaviva bottle I was sad enough to weigh a few empties. The results:

Penfolds Grange 528g
Gruaud Larose : 536g
Petrus : 540g
Brane Cantenac : 548g
Latour ; 573g (1970) 546g (1996)
Opus One : 574g
Ornellaia : 606g
Costanti Brunello : 607g
Taylor 170 Vintage : 662g
Caymus SS : 683g
Don Melchor : 746g
Cesare Barolo Ornato : 771g
Lehmann Stonewell : 783g
Almaviva : 884g
Krug : 925g

Ok that's dull and tells us nothing other than vintage bubbly lives in a big house and Almaviva as a stupid size bottle. Put it another way - the Almaviva bottle weighs approx 20% more than the wine inside...

K

Post #: 1

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 5:52:48 AM

khmark7

Posts: 11415
Joined: 7/6/2008
From: Chicago suburbs
Status: offline

I don't believe you. Bring another bottle of Petrus over here to my house and we will drink it, and then weight the bottle just to make sure

Seriously, just a good example of waste. No bottle needs to weigh more than a standard Bordeaux bottle.

(in reply to Khamen)

Post #: 2

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 6:00:23 AM

ikileo

Posts: 1318
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: Singapore
Status: offline

i definitely hear you on the Almaviva bottle. what's up with them Chileans?

(in reply to khmark7)

Post #: 3

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 6:18:48 AM

Hollowine

Posts: 7251
Joined: 7/25/2008
From: Hood River, OR
Status: offline

As I suspected, Latour has been in a slow decline since the 70's

(in reply to ikileo)

Post #: 4

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 6:27:06 AM

ytsai

Posts: 1365
Joined: 10/14/2008
From: Taiwan
Status: offline

Who has an empty bottle of 2000 Mouton? It is not easy to compare the weight of two bottles by hand, but when doing it with a full case it is clearly the heaviest 12 bottle case I own.

(in reply to Khamen)

Post #: 5

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 6:28:27 AM

khmark7

Posts: 11415
Joined: 7/6/2008
From: Chicago suburbs
Status: offline

This weight also does wonders for shipping costs.

(in reply to ytsai)

Post #: 6

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 6:41:52 AM

GoodToGrape

Posts: 1260
Joined: 12/8/2008
From: Chicago
Status: offline

I weighed full bottles and subtracted the approx weight of the contents (760 g - a little extra to account for the cork and capsule). My heaviest were:

Buccella - 1211g
Pahlmeyer - 1196g
Hollywood &Vine "2480" - 1194g

< Message edited by GoodToGrape -- 2/21/2010 8:17:36 PM >

(in reply to khmark7)

Post #: 7

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 10:06:00 AM

wadcorp

Posts: 9332
Joined: 10/29/2008
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

Another bruiser: 2007 Luca Syrah Laborde Double Select (Argentina, Mendoza, Valle de Uco)

Clocking in at 1159.5g when empty.

.

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Post #: 8

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 10:30:37 AM

Colonel Lawrence

Posts: 7118
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline

That's not an Almaviva bottle, that's Swarovski Crystal.
L.

(in reply to Khamen)

Post #: 9

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 11:05:20 AM

tacman

Posts: 3168
Joined: 10/22/2007
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

Seriously, just a good example of waste. No bottle needs to weigh more than a standard Bordeaux bottle.

Except for maybe the champagne!!

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(in reply to khmark7)

Post #: 10

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 3:41:16 PM

jim_crane

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Napa, CA
Status: offline

this should be no surprise...

pax venus (full) = 1700g
pax nepenthe (empty, but essentially the same bottle) = 965g

more than 50% in glass! though donelan has indicated that big bottles are a thing of the past for his wines.

(in reply to tacman)

Post #: 11

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 4:28:16 PM

Paul S

Posts: 3023
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: Singapore
Status: offline

Anyone has a bottle of Au Bon Climat? I remember their bottles being ridiculously heavy

(in reply to jim_crane)

Post #: 12

RE: Weight Problem - 2/21/2010 6:00:16 PM

dannykoz

Posts: 60
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline

It's no surprise about the champagne bottles with the pressures they have to withstand. As far as the others, heavy bottle with a big punt are just status symbols, no?

(in reply to Paul S)

Post #: 13

RE: Weight Problem - 2/22/2010 6:05:41 PM

JustBusiness

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Joined: 7/29/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ytsai

Who has an empty bottle of 2000 Mouton? It is not easy to compare the weight of two bottles by hand, but when doing it with a full case it is clearly the heaviest 12 bottle case I own.

I'd be happy to lighten that case up....

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Post #: 14

RE: Weight Problem - 2/22/2010 6:11:30 PM

khmark7

Posts: 11415
Joined: 7/6/2008
From: Chicago suburbs
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul S

Anyone has a bottle of Au Bon Climat? I remember their bottles being ridiculously heavy

Absolutely! Those bottles are impossible to fit into a Eurocave as well. I'm hoping that these bottle sizes will be a short lived fad that will fade away, much like Britney Spears....

(in reply to Paul S)

Post #: 15

Bottle Weight Problem - 3/31/2024 9:58:01 AM

pemazel

Posts: 10
Joined: 11/26/2021
Status: offline

I do not think this is al dull thema. There is no excuse for still wine bottles heavier than, say, 450 - 550 gram. Heavier bottles are bad for the environment (production, transport, etc) and bad for the consumers (price, cost of transport, etc.)

See e.g.: https://wineeconomist.com/2021/06/29/wine-bottle/ from which I quote:

"Some winemakers I know think that the weight of the bottle is an important marketing factor — heavy bottles signal quality. But obviously this isn’t always the case, as Katie Jackson of Jackson Family Wines told us a couple of years ago at the Porto Climate Change Leadership Conference. Jackson moved to lighter glass and then waited for a negative reaction … that never came. So they did it again.

And Lageder is doing it again, with a special new Burgundy-style bottle that takes the weight down to just 450 grams, which allows the winery to reduce glass use by 17% or 87 tons. The bottle on the left in the image above is the old heavier bottle and the one on the right is the new sleeker product. The difference is subtle, but it is there.

“Of course, there are already lightweight bottles on the market, but there is hardly a Burgundy bottle that is so light and still meets the demands of a valuable wine. Strangely enough, many people still believe today that a valuable wine must be equipped with a heavy bottle,” says Alois Clemens Lageder. “The bottle also has a name. It is called Summa and is deliberately not patented so that many winemakers are motivated to switch to lightweight bottles,” adds Helena Lageder."

And:

"Here is the range of weights from lightest to heaviest.

Wine can 375 ml: 16 grams (x 2 = 32 grams)

One liter tetra-pak wine container: 40 grams.

Plastic wine bottle 750 ml: 56 grams

Eco wine bottle 750mml: 426 grams

Lightweight wine bottle 750 ml: 444 grams

New Lageder wine bottle:750 ml: 450 grams

Previous Lageder wine bottle 750 ml: 650 grams

Older Lageder wine bottle 750 ml: 750 grams

Heavyweight wine bottle 750 ml: 1084

Super heavyweight wine bottle 750 ml: 1198 grams

An ultra-heavyweight bottle of a wine from China: 1218 grams.

Lageder is clearly taking a big step in the right direction with its new bottles, which are amongst the lightest glass bottles we have found. They seem very confident that going light won’t affect consumer perceptions of their wine and I think they are right."

In my opinion bottle weight should be mentioned in tasting notes as often as possible, while we should tell our favorite producers to lower the weight ASAP.

Paul

(in reply to Khamen)

Post #: 16

RE: Weight Problem - 3/31/2024 11:12:54 AM

wine247365

Posts: 1010
Joined: 5/1/2012
From: OC, CA
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Heavy bottles are a lot, any way you consider em. Anyone who knows what they’re buying would never think heavier equals a better wine.

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(in reply to Khamen)

Post #: 17

Bottle Weight Problem - 3/31/2024 12:59:31 PM

pemazel

Posts: 10
Joined: 11/26/2021
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Were you only right! But, I am afraid, many consumers still think: heavy bottle > must be good wine. Meanwhile, a (too) heavy bottle serves nothing other than marketing purposes. We are fed up with them

< Message edited by pemazel -- 3/31/2024 1:00:24 PM >

(in reply to wine247365)

Post #: 18

RE: Bottle Weight Problem - 3/31/2024 5:03:09 PM

KPB

Posts: 4649
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
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Heft is one component of the score.

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(in reply to pemazel)

Post #: 19

RE: Weight Problem - 4/1/2024 7:27:45 AM

Eduardo787

Posts: 1559
Joined: 1/14/2020
From: Monterrey Mexico
Status: online

I like big bottles, I am not concerned about shipping costs or weight or anything like that. My only concern about big heavy bottles is that they take away double the space in my wine fridge, other than that I am perfectly fine the same way someone that drives a BMW or a Lexus feel instead of be driving a Honda Fit or a Versa.

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Post #: 20

RE: Weight Problem - 4/1/2024 11:10:09 AM

ElsassCZ

Posts: 4
Joined: 4/1/2024
Status: offline

I hope this will become an issue. It is actually quite strange that it is not an issue yet, given the growing concerns about the environmental situation. Such a waste of resources (and money!) to have such heavy bottles. And if I can understand it for some expensive Chateauneuf du Pape, it is always weird to see that for cheap wines... the power of marketing...

(in reply to Eduardo787)

Post #: 21

RE: Weight Problem - 4/1/2024 12:11:07 PM

fingers

Posts: 8242
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From: Santa Ana, CA
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I would prefer that California put the same recycle value on wine and spirits as it does beer and soda. Even the lightest bottles mostly don't get recycled, particularly because there's no incentive to do so.

(in reply to ElsassCZ)

Post #: 22

RE: Weight Problem - 4/2/2024 6:12:21 AM

MB1991

Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2023
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I actually wonder if it's cheaper for companies to use heavier/thicker glass. We all know that thinner glass is more expensive to manufacture, I'm just not sure where that cut over is. What about shipping costs of thinner glass vs. heavier glass, there's the obvious weight factor that will cost more but how much extra padding + breakage do you need to account for using thinner glass?

Would love to understand from someone heavily involved in the process what the true cost tradeoff is of thicker vs. thinner glass and if it's not just a perceived quality ploy.

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 23

RE: Weight Problem - 4/2/2024 8:59:28 AM

ChrisinCowiche

Posts: 7845
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

I would prefer that California put the same recycle value on wine and spirits as it does beer and soda. Even the lightest bottles mostly don't get recycled, particularly because there's no incentive to do so.

A bill to add wine bottles to the Oregon Bottle Bill system failed in this year's legislature. There are new recycling rules going into effect in CA and OR (also CO and ME) that will require all food and beverage packaging, and other consumer packaging to be accounted for and fees paid by producers. Of course those fees will get passed along to consumers in those states. The bottle bills or reusable bottle systems could provide carve outs, but so far that hasn't happened.

On the price of glass bottles, generally heavier glass costs more. I haven't bought any new glass in several years, but I'd expect the same to be true today. The "thin" glass is strong enough to do its job, and there is really no reason for the thicker stuff, other than aesthetics.

This thread is about 14 years old BTW, hope our buddy Khamen is doing well.

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Post #: 24

RE: Weight Problem - 4/2/2024 1:17:52 PM

BobMilton

Posts: 2876
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: Newbury Park, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

I would prefer that California put the same recycle value on wine and spirits as it does beer and soda. Even the lightest bottles mostly don't get recycled, particularly because there's no incentive to do so.

There's now 10 cent deposit on wine bottles. My last shipments from Tercero and Loring charged me. Haven't tried to redeem them yet. but wine bottles are just like coke bottles now.

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 25

RE: Weight Problem - 4/2/2024 3:31:27 PM

jmcmchi

Posts: 3210
Joined: 8/6/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MB1991

I actually wonder if it's cheaper for companies to use heavier/thicker glass. We all know that thinner glass is more expensive to manufacture, I'm just not sure where that cut over is. What about shipping costs of thinner glass vs. heavier glass, there's the obvious weight factor that will cost more but how much extra padding + breakage do you need to account for using thinner glass?

Shipping (bulk, that is) is normally on pallets, typically 56 cases of lighter bottles, 44 of heavier glass. The dividers inside the cartons are usually slightly thicker/more rigid for the heavier glass. Treatment of pallets is identical, wrapping them in (giant size) shrinkwrap. I have no data on breakage rates
For shipping to individual customers, standard cardboard or polystyrene packing is used for most, if not all, bottles. (True up to 1kg bottles at least, no idea for the superheavy monsters)

(in reply to MB1991)

Post #: 26

RE: Weight Problem - 4/2/2024 6:18:19 PM

fingers

Posts: 8242
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BobMilton

quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

I would prefer that California put the same recycle value on wine and spirits as it does beer and soda. Even the lightest bottles mostly don't get recycled, particularly because there's no incentive to do so.

There's now 10 cent deposit on wine bottles. My last shipments from Tercero and Loring charged me. Haven't tried to redeem them yet. but wine bottles are just like coke bottles now.

Thanks Bob. They sure haven't promoted this at my local recycling center

(in reply to BobMilton)

Post #: 27

RE: Weight Problem - 4/3/2024 10:44:48 AM

MB1991

Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2023
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: MB1991

I actually wonder if it's cheaper for companies to use heavier/thicker glass. We all know that thinner glass is more expensive to manufacture, I'm just not sure where that cut over is. What about shipping costs of thinner glass vs. heavier glass, there's the obvious weight factor that will cost more but how much extra padding + breakage do you need to account for using thinner glass?

Shipping (bulk, that is) is normally on pallets, typically 56 cases of lighter bottles, 44 of heavier glass. The dividers inside the cartons are usually slightly thicker/more rigid for the heavier glass. Treatment of pallets is identical, wrapping them in (giant size) shrinkwrap. I have no data on breakage rates
For shipping to individual customers, standard cardboard or polystyrene packing is used for most, if not all, bottles. (True up to 1kg bottles at least, no idea for the superheavy monsters)